 Trolls Weight, What do you do? |
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 Oct 12 2004, 12:11 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538  |
Trolls, like other meta-humans and para-normal critters can only exist when there is a high enough mana level for their species. The apparent low weight of trolls can be explained away with this. All trolls whether mundane or awakened have 2 low level adept-like abilities - Reduced Weight and Renewing Joints. These always-on powers have a drain on the troll's mind, resulting in the some of the modifiers to mind-related attributes.
I am asking this, because I'm currently detailing a bunch of stuff for trolls, ranging from portable toilet seats to BFTGs and would like to see how people cope with trolls in their worlds. |
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Oct 12 2004, 12:33 PM
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#2
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,030 |
I have to choose E. None of the Above.
In my campaigns, I have adopted the rules laid out in the TSS 13 article, "How Much Did You Say He Weighed?" Find it Here This article correctly adjusts the average weights based on the size difference as compared to a Human. Unfortunately, as we have recently discovered, this leaves Trolls grossly under-strength'd for their size. I hear everyone saying "No Way!", but its true. For a being that is 1.7 times the height of a Human and weighing 4.9 times as much, adding a mere +4 to Strength is NOT proportional. But thats another thread... :) The answer here is, We use the weight adjustments found in TSS Issue 13. Enjoy. |
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Oct 12 2004, 12:46 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Yup, TSS13 is the way to go. And then make Tumby Troll pay! It's an evil, dark world and "Same rights for all" have long gone out of the window. Add in that Trolls are the "poor minority" and you get:
- Most bars are not build for Trolls (to small, to frail) and post "No Trolls allowed" signs - Most supermarkets don't care for them as customers - Public transport is not for them Birdy |
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Oct 12 2004, 01:07 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
If actually read TSS13 about weights you will see that it suggests that the average troll weight would be 491.1 kg, so would you like to vote now? |
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Oct 12 2004, 01:16 PM
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#5
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
I've become quotable! It's so good to see the kids all grown and finding work!
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Oct 12 2004, 01:19 PM
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#6
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Are you kidding? Given how much they'd eat, a single Troll would probably be as good a supermarket customer as an entire small human family. If there'd be anyplace bending over backwards to make sure Trolls and Orks feel comfortable, it'd be the supermarkets. ~J |
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Oct 12 2004, 01:19 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I was saying "Hear hear!" If you weigh about 7 times as much as a human, you probably should be capable of lifting and hauling a bit more than twice as much as the average human. BTW, if you're using the HMDYSHW weights, you're actually going by Option 2: Increase Weight To Around 500kg, since the article goes with 491.1kg for average troll weight. I don't completely agree with that, since part of the Body and Strength increase should already be worked into the fact that an average human male that would weigh over 300kg. About 400-450kg might make more sense. But that sort of margin is hardly significant compared to the leap from 225kg to 450-500kg. I answered Reduce Height To Around 7 Feet, although I'm actually closer to 8 feet -- 230cm or 7' 7". This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 12 2004, 01:21 PM |
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Oct 12 2004, 01:25 PM
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#8
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
I would have to go with "none of the above" as well:
The "it's canon"-option is quite close, but not as close as I'd like it to be Same for the "mana"-option. For me there are two things important with the weight of trolls: 1. There is no qualified material on muscle density or fat / other tissue relations for trolls. So just like e.g. cat-muscles have a much higher strength / volume ratio in comparison to human muscles, the same can be true for a genetically compatible yet significantly different subspecies like the troll (metas are called "races", but within biological taxonomy they could be viewed as either a race or a subspecies) in comparison to the normal human. Additionally even our real world provides some serious differences when it comes to the weight of animals that reach sizes of about 3m. Male walrusses reach an average weight of about 1200kg at that size. Grizzly bears (that easily reach an erect size of 3m) IIRC come in at about 500kg. Tigers at about 350 kgs. Now, the usual argument against these examples usually is the general artwork in SR. But take a closer look: There are so many different pictures that trolls sometimes look like a SR-verion of the incredible hulk (and in most cases the then portrayed trolls are nowhere near "average"), while other pictures portay rather slim and compact trolls => there's actually nothing that portrays the average troll 2. Suspension of disbelief. It's a game after all. My main concern is fun. Trolls are legal player characters and they are supposed to provide some fun for the player(s). So just for the sake of that fun, I'm more then willing to disregard ultra-realistic weight-issues or size comparisons (beyond the occasional annoyance of non-fitting chairs and having the group sitting extremely tight in a car for example) |
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Oct 12 2004, 01:39 PM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
A walrus is one big, obese torso with a head on top. You simply cannot compare the weights of species which look so totally different. A 2.8-meter-long walrus would weigh an average of maybe 800kg. A 2.5-meter-tall (standing on two legs) grizzly bear weighs an average of ~380kg. A bear also has a substantially larger torso than a humanoid, but is otherwise very skinny a critter. Take the fur off of one, and it will look almost emaciated, unless it's late autumn. A male polar bear that's 2.8 meters tall on its hind legs will weigh an average of about 500kg -- slightly skinny but a very large torso, which evens out to roughly the same neighborhood as a troll. A tiger is a slender creature. Take the fur off and make it stand on two legs, and it'll look quite ridiculous indeed. Also, all length figures for them are from nose to the tip of the tail, and the tail is usually well over a meter long, 50cm+ longer than the hind legs. A bengali tiger which would be 2.8 meters tall while standing on two legs would weigh somewhere around 350kg. So don't use the animal kingdom as an example, as that only supports trolls being heavier. Your second reason is very sensible, one which I respect, and also firmly in Option 3 territory. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 12 2004, 01:46 PM |
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Oct 12 2004, 01:45 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 541 Joined: 2-August 04 From: South Africa Member No.: 6,531 |
It sound like canon in SR3 but I have always played Troll around the 7'9" Ave and about 250kg give or take. If there is SR4 in the pipelines they they should look into the Bio of the different races.
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Oct 12 2004, 01:48 PM
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#11
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
My point there being: While it may "only" support the few that trolls "should" be heavier, there's no exact measurement how much this "should" actually be ;) I deliberately chose animals that do not necessarily have a common built, since the "built" of an average troll already is something everyone just seems to have different views upon (including the artists of SR) ...
Depends on POV ;) |
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Oct 12 2004, 02:00 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Sorry AE, that option was meant be expressly for your trolls, although I didn't realise you were that tall. ;)
The thing is, life for a (canon or not) troll is difficult when you really think about it. The wrong size chair is the least of the problems, what about their beds/toilet? Dwarves seem to have picked up the handyman category, but I think it should really be the trolls. If you were poor and almost everything has to be modified for you, you would definately pick up skills in woodwork, masonry, sewing, etc. After reading reading through 1st Ed, 2nd Ed and most of 3rd Ed, there appears to be only one troll item - Honda Viking bike; this is why I am compiling a troll guide. This poll will be extremely useful for the final compilations, please help with listing your interpretation of how trolls interact with the world. On the same line as supermarkets above, if a troll weighed 500kgs the portable reinforced toilet seat is a must! |
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Oct 12 2004, 02:09 PM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I haven't seen a single skinny troll yet. Quick glance through SR3 will follow:
Cover art: Huge arms, huge torso, small legs, very muscular + fat (looks about 200-210cm tall) Page 9: Huge torso, normal built (impossible to say how tall) Page 27: Huge arms, huge torso, very muscular + fat (looks nearly 3m tall) Page 51: Huge torso, thick legs, lots of clothing but probably rather to very heavy built (no scale, either) Page 53: Huge arms, huge torso, thick legs, very muscular (looks about 230-250cm tall when standing straight) Page 67: Huge torso, lots of clothing but probably rather to very heavy built (no scale) Page 72: Huge arms, huge torso, very muscular (no scale) Page 73: Huge arms, huge torso, very muscular (no scale) Page 115: Huge arms, huge torso, very muscular (no scale) Meeting Mister Johnson ... and friends (non-numbered color-pages): Large torso, very thick legs, heavy built (looks about 210-240cm tall) A pair of gangers ... (non-numbered color-pages): Huge legs, normal torso, very muscular (looks about 200-220cm tall) etc. I'm not seeing a whole lot of different views. They are all quite heavily built, most are massively muscular, most have huge torsos. Also, strength/volume ratios don't have much to do with what trolls look like. Troll muscle might even be much weaker than human muscle, pound-per-pound, but obviously the prevailing view is that trolls are massive, with thick arms and barrel-like torsos, and flesh density is about constant throughout large mammals. [Edit]That's most of the full-body troll art that I'm aware of, actually. There's one on the back of MitS which is of the basic "Strong Mad" type, basically square-shaped. Cannon Companion has a few, which are all as massive as the ones in SR3. The Cyclops in SRComp has a massive torso but normal arms. The hairy troll mage is another of the square-shaped ones. The Giant is very skinny, except for the torso. The minotaur is massive, again. SRComp p. 127 is, uhh, big. And so forth.[/Edit] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 12 2004, 02:24 PM |
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Oct 12 2004, 02:20 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Orks I agree (at least with the cheap markets like Aldi or Wallmart). SR Orks are a bit smaller than I am (190cm) and pose no problems. They may eat a bit more (not that much) but in general they are just a bit uglier than most of your customers. Trolls on the other hand would pose major problems to most shops. 270+cm means they need a clear! cyling of at least 300cm. Add in the width of the Troll, it's danger to the stands (Even the SR skinnies at 200+kg can topple one accidently) and the low income of most Tumbies and I don't see them as "well-liked" customers - They can't bring in the money I loose with people who choose to buy somewhere else. And that leaves out the problem that Trolls are seen as "overgrown Forrest Gumps who might trow a violent temper if they don't get their will". Sorry, "We admit no Trolls" would be a good reason for me to pay more! Granted, I actually like Humanis. Birdy (Burn da Elva, burn da Elva) |
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Oct 12 2004, 02:20 PM
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#15
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Yes, the life of a canon troll is difficult, I didn't say otherwise. Just because I didn't mention toilets or beds, that doesn't mean that I didn't think of these. But they normally just don't have a larger impact on my games. There's a big difference between occasional anoyance that suits the fun of all players and the constant fuck up of a particular race in a fictional universe that is supposed to make fun for all palyers and availible player characters. Realism is fine and dandy, but if it hurts my fun, it get's thrown over board ... Btw. Trolls are around for about 50 years in the SR universe. That's long enough to have at least some adjustments to their presence. I tend to compare it with handicaped people these days: They aren't supported on a general basis /at least not to a satisfying extend), but their lives are far from unbearable / impossible to lead. There are suited toilets for handicaped people in public buildings as well as wheelchair ramps and the like. Private adjustments are just a matter of money. Sure, they aren't everywhere, but we're even trying to implement such features in rather old buildings these days (and these buildings lack the architectural foresight to implement such features, yet it still works to a certain degree). So I don't see any reason to push that issue too far. At least to me it's mor than enough to have them pay those 25% extra (sometimes being far too few while sometimes being far too much) and be done with that at that point ... |
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Oct 12 2004, 02:22 PM
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#16
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
I should like to point out that while "How Much Did You Say He Weighed?" keeps trolls at 9'2" (280 cm), nothing else in the game supports that, and I've long held the theory that Tom Dowd pulled that height figure out of his ass without thinking about any of the implications of it.
All of the art shows trolls in excess of 7 feet but generally less than 8. I've long held that the "official" average height of a troll should actually be around 7'9". But I don't work where these decisions are made. |
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Oct 12 2004, 02:27 PM
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#17
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Supermarkets generally have ceilings high enough for a Juggernaut in most places. Widen the aisles and you're golden. ~J |
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Oct 12 2004, 02:28 PM
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#18
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Actually, SR orks average around 190 cm and 95 kg (6'3" and 209 lbs); I'd like to make them taller and stouter (I'd like to put them at 200 cm and proportionally weighted), but that's just me. For purposes of reference, I'm 6'3" or 6'4", depending on who you ask, and I weigh 220. I would in no way be confused with an ork in terms of build/physique. |
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Oct 12 2004, 02:31 PM
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#19
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Nice summation ;) Now how many of these trolls would you consider to represent "the average troll"?
Yet they do not fit the description of an average troll that good, do they? And ...
However such strenght / volume and volume / density issues have a direct impact on the actual weight ;) Just take one kilo of lead and one kilo of feathers ... By volume the feathers are huge in comparison to the lead. Now extend that thought onto trolls vs. humans: We have no material on how dense troll tissue is in comparison to that of a normal human. And that's the main issue I have with calculations like the one in TSS. Of course mass usually increases cubic for three dimensional objects that are increased in all three dimensions at the same ratio. But it's not even sure that that is actually true for trolls => We're already at rather wild guesses when it comes to volume and we still have no data on tissue density ... |
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Oct 12 2004, 02:33 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 541 Joined: 2-August 04 From: South Africa Member No.: 6,531 |
Well lets put Fanpro's art department to the test, or even some artist and lets have some impressions
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Oct 12 2004, 02:40 PM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Probably none. However, there is a near-total lack of hugely muscular humans. All the trolls pictured are by far thicker in all directions than the humans portrayed. That tells me that, on average, the trolls are proportionately thicker, more muscular and have larger torsos than humans.
What I was trying to say is that, while density obviously has a direct impact on how much a given volume has mass, the flesh density (unlike the strength per mass ratio) of large mammals is mostly constant -- 1060kg/m^3 for humans, marsupials, cats, birds, elephants, etc. So it's much less plausible that troll flesh is much less dense than human flesh than it is that troll flesh is weaker per unit of mass than human flesh. |
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Oct 12 2004, 02:42 PM
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#22
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
I've always justified that in my head this way: Trolls probably get more than +4 Strength, but most of that bonus is consumed by moving their considerable bulk around. Thus, while their actual bonus to Strength is much higher, their effective bonus only comes out to +4. It's semantics, basically, but it's always worked for me. |
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Oct 12 2004, 02:44 PM
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#23
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Occam's Razor would therefore suggest that it's likely about the same, which is mostly what I was going on. I mentioned more than once in the article that a lot of it was based on educated guesswork. |
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Oct 12 2004, 03:05 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
There is a problem with SR artwork being used as a basis for comparative troll heights. Most pictures that feature trolls inconjunction with other meta-humans are portait/bust images, a collection of heads with the positioning dictated by the frame and layout constraints. Only panoramic pictures can be used for height comparison.
Does anybody who has access to all the SR books fancy a stab at continuing AE's excellent work? |
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Oct 12 2004, 03:14 PM
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#25
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
That's all I wanted to hear ;)
That just tells me that the portrayed trolls do have such features and in most cases the pictures do not provide exact info of the ratio for all three dimensions involved.
Less plausible? Yes, from a "realistic" POV Impossible? No ... But that brings me back to that "mana"-explaination and
... this educated guesswork with the assumption that density issues are more or less irrelevant according to Occam's Razor: I do not necesarily dispute the overall results in the linked article from TSS. They are the result of a rather good guesswork from a biological POV. I guess that I would have come to very similar results, if I had done something like this. However, the existance of trolls (and all other metas) is based on the existance of mana at a certain level. Mana is directly linked to magic and influences genetics on a level that our real world doesn't even know (and from a scientific perspective the given explainations are rather questionable *again: Suspension of Disbelief*). So as educated as these guesses might be and as less plausible a different density for troll tissue under real world condiction might be, as "unrealistic" they are when dealing with that fictional world of SR. At least IMHO ... |
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