[SoA2064] SOTA 64 Wicca, happy Synner? Options

[Snow_Fox]

Well there are other wiccas in these forums but since on one else has brought it up- the magic section of SOTA 64 gives a suprisingly good discription of Wicca, putting it out htere as an understandably attractive magicxal mindset. Like the NAN shamnism, when the awakening came/comes wiccans or witchs as they are called, would have a head start in the magical learn fields for the same reason. If anything wiccans should gain numbers as being the already set with a teaching prossess in place.

I particularly like the fact it address how wiccans can be either shamans or hermetics, which really follows how contemporary Wiccans can be seen.

I do appreciate how holy places/circles is addressed as well as the wiccan rede. considering this is a contemporary religion and the room for insult was wide, I think it was covered well.

Less happy, hey you'd wonder if I didn't have a down side, was that you mark Wiccans and witchs as seperate beings, with 'witches' in SOTA being more like herbalists. In RL wiccas 1) herbalism can be very much a part of it and 2) many wiccans use the term wiccan/witch interchangably.

Ironically after decades of the religous right incorrectly saying RPG's teach witchcraft, you've finally got a prodcut which does it.

[Sabosect]

Actually, witchcraft is a separate, but related, practice to Wicca. Not all Wiccans are practicing witches and not all witches are Wiccans. Many Satanists also practice witchcraft and so do even a few Christians.

I studied the religion for about two years and noticed that strangeness. The two are separate, yet often the same.

[Snow_Fox]

And I've been a wiccan for over a dozen years.It's a faith, not a school of magic. Wicca is by definition "disorganized religion." with each person taking the parts or different cultures and systems she or he likes best. "Satanic witches" take what they like from witchcraft, just as they do from christianity, but since witches are polytheistic and satanist aren't, it's an oxymoron.

neopagan and wiccan are simialr schools but different but most wiccans wouldn't bat and eye at being called a "witch." I know I wouldn't

[Zenmaxer]

Only wiccans view them as interchangeable, to my knowledge. Many of the witches I have met have insisted quite adamantly that they are not the same. Making them separate was the proper choice.

[mfb]

the division between 'wiccans' and 'witches' in SR was probably an artifact of clear division in magical styles and results. basically, one general 'type' of wiccan/witch expressed their magic in a certain way, and another 'type' expressed it in another. eventaully, type A wiccans/witches became known simply as wiccans, and type Bs became known as witches.

[Zenmaxer]

No, actually, witch is a much much broader term than wiccan, and may refer to numerous different traditions, where wicca is a specific religion and set of practices. From what I know of Wicca, it's actually based on witchcraft, rather than the other way around... so I suppose it would be accurate to say that all wiccan females are witches, but not all witches are wiccan females.

ex: don't know how reliable this is...


By the way, not all witches are pagans, believe it or not. Brujas are a good example... they are very often devoted catholics who deal with magic as a separate thing from religion all together.

[Sabosect]

Actually, go back to what I said earlier. There are plenty of Wiccans, both male and female, that do not practice witchcraft.

Also, the word "witch" is used more these days, in that context, for both males and females. The word "warlock" is extremely insulting and will earn you all kinds of hatred from those who know the practices.

[Zenmaxer]

:: laughs :: even that's not constant. some people insist on warlock instead of witch.

[Sabosect]

True. But they tend to meet with a lot of insults and derisive remarks, so...

[Siege]

Heh. I am indeed a happy sinner.

-Siege

[Kremlin KOA]

At the risk of starting a flamewar... how old did Sota 64 place wicca?

[mfb]

it says it wiccans owe as much to 19th/20th century ideas as ancient stuff. "carefully neutral" would be, i think, an apt phrase.

[Edward]

Wicca is a bastardisation and modernisation of several old traditions it was created as such within the last centaury. In fact the only thing it has over most organised religions is that most practitioners are actually nice people and it hasn’t yet had time for its stated tenants (witch focus on not being nasty to others) to be corrupted as has happened with so many other religious.

Being a religion created towards the end of the 5th world it’s magicians will have all the same difficulties Hermetics had with there miss quoted and poorly translated documents. I would actually expect this to be a death knell for Wicca as its practitioners discover and desert to the jejunely old religions on witch it was based.

Edward

[Zenmaxer]

:: dives for cover and pulls edward down into the bunker ::

Could you have said anything more inflammatory? Fireworks time.

[Fortune]

He only spoke the truth, but then the same can be said about all religions (time-frame excepted). :)

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

[Edward]

It is only the atheists and god that will protect me. I believe I insulted every organised religion in that statement. Really I was unfair, as far as I know the Buddhists are an exception.

Edward

[Kremlin KOA]

thanx for the reply mfb

[Synner]

Thanks, Snow. Audun and I did a lot of research for the material in Euromagic and I was wondering if it had paid off or if I was going to be burned at the stake as it were. :D

Note that the distinction between a Wiccan and a witch within the Wiccan belief is something that I would place on similar grounds to practicing and non-practicing Catholics. In SR I did try to explain that using "witch" for non-magical Wiccans fell out of use mainly because it's become so mainstream a term it loses some of its significance as a descriptor and it's a natural development of the fact that there are witches from non-Wiccan traditions, and it lessens potential confusion. Of course if doesn't work for you, you can just assume its a European affectation. ;)

What we've called a traditional witch on the other hand is indeed a different tradition, its refered to as Burjeria, Bruxaria, Curandeirismo, Stregeria and a dozen other names in Europe. The really important thing that sets these witches a part is that if you sit down with them (which I have) and ask them about Wicca or Wiccan beliefs 90% of them will have absolutely no idea what you are talking about . Few engage in what we would call nature worship of any form and indeed many of them are Catholics or even members of the Evangelical denominations (and practicing members at that). Some have Romany/gypsy influences, others have Celtic overtones. In the end they're closer to Terry Pratchett's witch hags than to modern Wiccan and they represent a magical rather than religious tradition.

For those who've asked both Wicca and Magick claim roots in older traditions but their modern forms evolved from mid- to late-19th century groups.

[Zenmaxer]

:: nods :: and for the record, taoism is also an exception, though it, like buddhism is more philosophy than religion. I would also venture to say that Judaism is fairly pure.

[Snow_Fox]

The example of Brujah is a good one of "neopagan" who are not Wiccan. They are devout catholics who feel their spells are empowered by the Madonna, but their main shrine was built over an Aztech holy place(Common tactic for the church) and rituals are surprisingly , or not so, similar to pagan/wiccan practices, except they invoke the Madonna instead of Goddess.

This leads into what I was saying about Wiccan/Witches/New Agers being better placed than most for the awakening. No I don't think you could dig up a volume of Scott Cunningham read it out from the book and bibbity-bobbity-bo. but Like the NAN shamans, they are already holding onto old lore and have in place a proccess to study magic and affect it. Most teachers and books tell their students not to repeat spells verbatum but to experiment until it works for them (very shamanistic as opposed to kabalah which is more hermeitical)

As for the osurce of Wicca, I think it was well placed. Hard core or out their flakes will insist it is a faith that goes back centuries. The truth is as a religoun it comes out of the 20th century combining ancient traditions, rural folklore, ritual magic,archeology and new age openness. I'm sure there were rural people's practicing what they were taught from their parents, but it would bare little similarity to the modern religon. Nothing ticks me off more than osmeone writing a book about "this is what the druids taught" and just the title tells you it's bunk because very very little of what the true Druids (circa 55 BC) did survived the Romans.

[Edward]

Judaism has more blood on its hands than ay other religion with the possible exception of Christianity. If you believe the christens it was as corrupt as hell when Christ came down (and other documents of the era bear this out as much as is possible) more recently we have the ongoing Israeli war.

I don’t know about Taoism.

Edward

[Pistons]

Just for the record, I'd read through Synner's drafts before they were sent off. Believe me, if I'd found anything wrong or objectionable, I'd have said something. :)

As it is, he's right concerning the difference between witches and Wiccans. I know a few folks who belong to the former category, and they are definitely not Wiccans. In fact, most of them are more amused than offended when asked about that, although I'm sure if someone got pushy or adamant about it, that would change. There is some overlap, but not by a lot.

[toturi]

[Zenmaxer]

This is true. We weren't talking about bloodshed though, we were talking about purity of ideals. The tao makes few claims to non-violence.

As for judaism, you were just talking about how inaccurate christian documentation is, so why would you use it to support your point about judaic corruption? Further, out of curiosity, what bloodshed are you talking about, anyway?


:: nods :: So yes, we have a clear difference between wicca and witches... not all witches follow wiccan tenets in any form and many hold views that are almost completely different. Many witches do not even base their beliefs around their craft, or the other way around.