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Snow_Fox
Well there are other wiccas in these forums but since on one else has brought it up- the magic section of SOTA 64 gives a suprisingly good discription of Wicca, putting it out htere as an understandably attractive magicxal mindset. Like the NAN shamnism, when the awakening came/comes wiccans or witchs as they are called, would have a head start in the magical learn fields for the same reason. If anything wiccans should gain numbers as being the already set with a teaching prossess in place.

I particularly like the fact it address how wiccans can be either shamans or hermetics, which really follows how contemporary Wiccans can be seen.

I do appreciate how holy places/circles is addressed as well as the wiccan rede. considering this is a contemporary religion and the room for insult was wide, I think it was covered well.

Less happy, hey you'd wonder if I didn't have a down side, was that you mark Wiccans and witchs as seperate beings, with 'witches' in SOTA being more like herbalists. In RL wiccas 1) herbalism can be very much a part of it and 2) many wiccans use the term wiccan/witch interchangably.

Ironically after decades of the religous right incorrectly saying RPG's teach witchcraft, you've finally got a prodcut which does it.
Sabosect
Actually, witchcraft is a separate, but related, practice to Wicca. Not all Wiccans are practicing witches and not all witches are Wiccans. Many Satanists also practice witchcraft and so do even a few Christians.

I studied the religion for about two years and noticed that strangeness. The two are separate, yet often the same.
Snow_Fox
And I've been a wiccan for over a dozen years.It's a faith, not a school of magic. Wicca is by definition "disorganized religion." with each person taking the parts or different cultures and systems she or he likes best. "Satanic witches" take what they like from witchcraft, just as they do from christianity, but since witches are polytheistic and satanist aren't, it's an oxymoron.

neopagan and wiccan are simialr schools but different but most wiccans wouldn't bat and eye at being called a "witch." I know I wouldn't
Zenmaxer
Only wiccans view them as interchangeable, to my knowledge. Many of the witches I have met have insisted quite adamantly that they are not the same. Making them separate was the proper choice.
mfb
the division between 'wiccans' and 'witches' in SR was probably an artifact of clear division in magical styles and results. basically, one general 'type' of wiccan/witch expressed their magic in a certain way, and another 'type' expressed it in another. eventaully, type A wiccans/witches became known simply as wiccans, and type Bs became known as witches.
Zenmaxer
No, actually, witch is a much much broader term than wiccan, and may refer to numerous different traditions, where wicca is a specific religion and set of practices. From what I know of Wicca, it's actually based on witchcraft, rather than the other way around... so I suppose it would be accurate to say that all wiccan females are witches, but not all witches are wiccan females.

ex: don't know how reliable this is...


By the way, not all witches are pagans, believe it or not. Brujas are a good example... they are very often devoted catholics who deal with magic as a separate thing from religion all together.
Sabosect
Actually, go back to what I said earlier. There are plenty of Wiccans, both male and female, that do not practice witchcraft.

Also, the word "witch" is used more these days, in that context, for both males and females. The word "warlock" is extremely insulting and will earn you all kinds of hatred from those who know the practices.
Zenmaxer
:: laughs :: even that's not constant. some people insist on warlock instead of witch.
Sabosect
True. But they tend to meet with a lot of insults and derisive remarks, so...
Siege
Heh. I am indeed a happy sinner.

-Siege
Kremlin KOA
At the risk of starting a flamewar... how old did Sota 64 place wicca?
mfb
it says it wiccans owe as much to 19th/20th century ideas as ancient stuff. "carefully neutral" would be, i think, an apt phrase.
Edward
Wicca is a bastardisation and modernisation of several old traditions it was created as such within the last centaury. In fact the only thing it has over most organised religions is that most practitioners are actually nice people and it hasn’t yet had time for its stated tenants (witch focus on not being nasty to others) to be corrupted as has happened with so many other religious.

Being a religion created towards the end of the 5th world it’s magicians will have all the same difficulties Hermetics had with there miss quoted and poorly translated documents. I would actually expect this to be a death knell for Wicca as its practitioners discover and desert to the jejunely old religions on witch it was based.

Edward
Zenmaxer
:: dives for cover and pulls edward down into the bunker ::

Could you have said anything more inflammatory? Fireworks time.
Fortune
He only spoke the truth, but then the same can be said about all religions (time-frame excepted). smile.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
By the way, not all witches are pagans, believe it or not. Brujas are a good example... they are very often devoted catholics who deal with magic as a separate thing from religion all together.

What? There's no such thing as curanderismo...
Edward
It is only the atheists and god that will protect me. I believe I insulted every organised religion in that statement. Really I was unfair, as far as I know the Buddhists are an exception.

Edward
Kremlin KOA
thanx for the reply mfb
Synner
Thanks, Snow. Audun and I did a lot of research for the material in Euromagic and I was wondering if it had paid off or if I was going to be burned at the stake as it were. biggrin.gif

Note that the distinction between a Wiccan and a witch within the Wiccan belief is something that I would place on similar grounds to practicing and non-practicing Catholics. In SR I did try to explain that using "witch" for non-magical Wiccans fell out of use mainly because it's become so mainstream a term it loses some of its significance as a descriptor and it's a natural development of the fact that there are witches from non-Wiccan traditions, and it lessens potential confusion. Of course if doesn't work for you, you can just assume its a European affectation. wink.gif

What we've called a traditional witch on the other hand is indeed a different tradition, its refered to as Burjeria, Bruxaria, Curandeirismo, Stregeria and a dozen other names in Europe. The really important thing that sets these witches a part is that if you sit down with them (which I have) and ask them about Wicca or Wiccan beliefs 90% of them will have absolutely no idea what you are talking about . Few engage in what we would call nature worship of any form and indeed many of them are Catholics or even members of the Evangelical denominations (and practicing members at that). Some have Romany/gypsy influences, others have Celtic overtones. In the end they're closer to Terry Pratchett's witch hags than to modern Wiccan and they represent a magical rather than religious tradition.

For those who've asked both Wicca and Magick claim roots in older traditions but their modern forms evolved from mid- to late-19th century groups.
Zenmaxer
:: nods :: and for the record, taoism is also an exception, though it, like buddhism is more philosophy than religion. I would also venture to say that Judaism is fairly pure.
Snow_Fox
The example of Brujah is a good one of "neopagan" who are not Wiccan. They are devout catholics who feel their spells are empowered by the Madonna, but their main shrine was built over an Aztech holy place(Common tactic for the church) and rituals are surprisingly , or not so, similar to pagan/wiccan practices, except they invoke the Madonna instead of Goddess.

This leads into what I was saying about Wiccan/Witches/New Agers being better placed than most for the awakening. No I don't think you could dig up a volume of Scott Cunningham read it out from the book and bibbity-bobbity-bo. but Like the NAN shamans, they are already holding onto old lore and have in place a proccess to study magic and affect it. Most teachers and books tell their students not to repeat spells verbatum but to experiment until it works for them (very shamanistic as opposed to kabalah which is more hermeitical)

As for the osurce of Wicca, I think it was well placed. Hard core or out their flakes will insist it is a faith that goes back centuries. The truth is as a religoun it comes out of the 20th century combining ancient traditions, rural folklore, ritual magic,archeology and new age openness. I'm sure there were rural people's practicing what they were taught from their parents, but it would bare little similarity to the modern religon. Nothing ticks me off more than osmeone writing a book about "this is what the druids taught" and just the title tells you it's bunk because very very little of what the true Druids (circa 55 BC) did survived the Romans.
Edward
Judaism has more blood on its hands than ay other religion with the possible exception of Christianity. If you believe the christens it was as corrupt as hell when Christ came down (and other documents of the era bear this out as much as is possible) more recently we have the ongoing Israeli war.

I don’t know about Taoism.

Edward
Pistons
Just for the record, I'd read through Synner's drafts before they were sent off. Believe me, if I'd found anything wrong or objectionable, I'd have said something. smile.gif

As it is, he's right concerning the difference between witches and Wiccans. I know a few folks who belong to the former category, and they are definitely not Wiccans. In fact, most of them are more amused than offended when asked about that, although I'm sure if someone got pushy or adamant about it, that would change. There is some overlap, but not by a lot.
toturi
QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
:: nods :: and for the record, taoism is also an exception, though it, like buddhism is more philosophy than religion. I would also venture to say that Judaism is fairly pure.

Taoism and Buddhism are religions in that they have a belief system . I do not know about Taoism or Buddhism not being as bloody as the others though. You could attribute the internecine warfare and civil uprisings/rebellions etc to the Taoist view of the world. While the bloodshed is not as systematic or obvious as the rest of the other religions, the bloodshed is definately there and more insidious because since Tao together with Confucianism advocates the community over the self.
Zenmaxer
This is true. We weren't talking about bloodshed though, we were talking about purity of ideals. The tao makes few claims to non-violence.

As for judaism, you were just talking about how inaccurate christian documentation is, so why would you use it to support your point about judaic corruption? Further, out of curiosity, what bloodshed are you talking about, anyway?


:: nods :: So yes, we have a clear difference between wicca and witches... not all witches follow wiccan tenets in any form and many hold views that are almost completely different. Many witches do not even base their beliefs around their craft, or the other way around.
Feonyx
At the risk of further derailing the post that was pretty much a discussion about SR's interpretation of Wicca I will add to this smile.gif.

To lump every member of a group into stereotypes is prejudice in it's purest form. There are evil "Christians" and good Christians... evil "Muslims" and good Muslims... even evil "Buddhists" and good Buddhists.

The destinction is that as soon as you take act "unpure" in almost every religion you are going against that religion. The tenants for all respected religions are "Though shalt not kill" and "Be kind to people and they will be kind back".

At the risk of opening up a flamefest. It is the same as all Americans being blamed for the deaths of innocent Iraqi civilians and all Muslims being blamed for 9/11.

All religions have purity it's a question of its followers to well.. follow them.

Feonyx
Dashifen
whee! Now I have to get this book smile.gif On the Witchcraft vs. Wicca thing, I'm a Wiccan and I use the term Witch. I see them as interchangable, but I was a Witch long before I was a Wiccan. My point of view on the matter is that Saying someone is a Witch can be similar to saying someone is a Christian. Within Witchcraft there are a number of different traditions, one of which you could call Wicca, just as within Christianity there are a number of different traditions, one of which you could call Catholicism (just to pick one). But remember, put five pagans in a room and ask them one question and you'll get seven answers grinbig.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
Hm. My reference was more... American.

Anyway, the canon NAN shaman lore is such utter crap that I find it hard to believe someone would refer to it in a positive context.
Snow_Fox
When talking about conflicts between wiccans, and so potential runs it isn't over doctrine as much as material goods/power. You don't hear about this now but there are storeis from the turn of the last century into the 1930's of groups facing off. They were motivated by the same petty things that motivated other people. a thing a place, revenge for a slight, real or perceived.

Two groups might be evenly matched for a spell conflict so one side hires a street sami to adjust the odds.
HMHVV Hunter
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
You don't hear about this now but there are storeis from the turn of the last century into the 1930's of groups facing off. They were motivated by the same petty things that motivated other people. a thing a place, revenge for a slight, real or perceived.

Didn't Aleister Crowley start one of those arcane fights? Against the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, IIRC?
Empyrean Seraph
QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter @ Oct 15 2004, 08:47 PM)
Didn't Aleister Crowley start one of those arcane fights?  Against the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, IIRC?

Specifically W.B. Yeats. sarcastic.gif

Later, he tried to do a takeover of the Order IIRC and still later ditched the Order and went off and worked his Crowley mojo.

And our very own L. Ron Hubbard fought John Parsons. That's right, boys and girls, today's lesson in Occult History 101 is that L. Ron was a follower of Aleister Crowley.
Snow_Fox
Crowley was an egoist of the first order. He moved into a lodge and when they wouldn't bow down and worship his greatness he got pissy.
HMHVV Hunter
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
Crowley was an egoist of the first order. He moved into a lodge and when they wouldn't bow down and worship his greatness he got pissy.

Yeah; I don't know much about the guy, but I read a short biography of him; he sounded like a megalomaniac from that.
Snow_Fox
To be fair Crowley was able to ammass and sort through a massive amount of hermetic lore which had been passed down through the centuries. That was why he thought he was great.

The problem was he was also a degenerate pervert of te worst sort, drinkm drugs girls, S&M. Even today he'd be an outcast, imaging what it wasl iek turning him loose in Edwardian London. between his ego and his social habits he gave people excuses to exclude him form society and of course that just made him bitter and nastier and drove him deeper into the bottle and needles.
Edward
I did point out that the Christian references to Jewish corruption where backed up by other extant records of the time. The point about modern Israel stands.

Edward
Snow_Fox
What a good thing then, that this thread is about wicca nad not judeism, though feel free to start a thread about that, maybe on kabalah based hermetic groups.
Dashifen
Very much enjoyed the section on Wicca and Witchcraft. Coming from personal experience, I have to say that it was well written, as-accurate-as-it-needs-to-be and generally fantastic. THANK YOU!
Synner
notworthy.gif

I was a little worried about the kind of reaction we might get balancing the RL and the SR material in both the Witchcraft and Druidism/Druidry sections. Hopefully you will enjoy the rest of the chapter too, Audun and I had some real fun with hermeticism too. wink.gif
DrJest
QUOTE
And our very own L. Ron Hubbard fought John Parsons. That's right, boys and girls, today's lesson in Occult History 101 is that L. Ron was a follower of Aleister Crowley.


Lol at that, I have some friends who are part of the anti-scientology movement, they never got around to telling me that bit smile.gif Man those Scientology guys are whacko. You know they believe that history has been manipulated by some evil Galactic Warlord type? Straight up, it's like a Level 3 Secret or something. Scientology believs that an evil alien warlord named Xenu killed trillions of aliens on Earth 75 thousand years, and those dead aliens now control all reality. And btw, for a member of the Church to get that information, it will have cost them thousands of dollars. Or, you know, you can look it up on the Net. Yeesh...
Snow_Fox
Geez, I'd never heard that but it's like playing right into Lovecraft more than Crowley. Of ocurse those two were active in the same time.
If you ever read Dion fortune, she was either heavily involved in some truely freaky things or she was off her medication. Of course considering some of the prejudices she shows in her writings, I think she was a vitim of an incredibly repressed time.
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