Dart Guns, Need help on how to use them... Options

[twofalls]

Hey folks, I searched the database but didn't come up with any previous posts on Dart guns. Last night one of my player announced that he uses a Dart Pistol and a Dart Rifle as an alternative to deadly combat. The entire session was legwork so it didn't matter last night, but the run itself will be happening next Friday and I'm having a heck of a time finding the rules for these things. He uses a chemical that does 10D damage (!!!) and told me that its in the main book... WHERE?!?

10D?? Thats a killer damage code, if that is the case then why don't more runners use this? What is the defense against it? The run is against Sylvan Informations, the first adventure in the Harlequin book. There are six cyber enhanced Barghests that they have to tranq, then the run itself into a lightly secured office building. Can anyone help me with the rules on Dartguns and the scoop on the massive damage code for tranquilizer serum.

Thank you in advance.

[twofalls]

http://forums-temp.dumpshock.com/index.php...374&hl=dart+gun

I found this... reading it now. If anyone has anything to add its appreciated. :)

[Krieger]

Beginning on p. 249 of the BBB there are a few toxins listed, and I'm assuming that he forgot to mention the Stun part of that 10D chemical (which happens to be Gamma-Scopolamine).

The dart weapons themselves are listed on p. 116 of M&M, and around that same place are a plethora of new chemicals to play with.

[Moonstone Spider]

[The White Dwarf]

M&M has rules for the dart weapons, as well as any toxins that arent listend in SR3.

The darts themselves do 4L lowered by impact. But unless its stopped completly (ie hardend armor) the drug will also do its damage against natural body. And players can always called shot around armor anyhow (be sure to require a perception test against the armors concealability where applicable).

The various filtration 'wares help, as do antidote slap patches and a high natural body, But the chemicals do hit hard even with all the defenses you can buy. They have 1 drawback, which is the onset time. Even a time of Immediate (the fastest there is) will not kick in until the end of the combat turn... meaning even if the npc hit with 10D Stun is going to garuntee get knocked out, he gets 1 full round of actions before it happens. Time enough to radio for help, hit an alarm, or shoot the players. Also remember that since theres no attack test for the toxins, theres no success to stage the damage up, so if the npc can score at least 2 successes theyll never go out on the first hit.

As for the cost of the toxins, yea its a bit pricey if you buy everything. But given the rediculously easy "make it yourself" tns for anyone using the Chemisty knowledge skill, thats easily avoided. If your players really want to make a point of using drugs theres not much you can do about it; but then the same can be said of a lot of attack strategies players employ.

[mmu1]

Even with the increased cost, the current chemical/dart rules are bullshit... They effectively bypass armor (1/2 Impact usually ends up being 1 or 2), and most of the drugs have really nasty side effects on top of TN penalties for wounds.

When a street sam needs to worry more about pepper spray than a 3-round burst from an AR, something is very wrong.

[The White Dwarf]

The half impact is irrelevent, its against a 4L hit. If you dont have 4 points of impact armor you dont belong in the shadows.

Its true about the side effects tho. Between getting hit by a taser, pepper punch, and hyper the target is likley out cold and if not is probably suffering something near +10 tn to all actions. Course, they get 3 seconds to act first. Spend em well.

[mmu1]

[Moonstone Spider]

Oh yes, and any hardened armor apparently makes you immune to chemical delivery weapons that don't have a separate damage code so maybe there's hope for Gel packs yet.

Unless they still get to use called shot.

[Wounded Ronin]

I never found a damage code for the darts. I always assumed that if you were hit at all without hardened armor you had to resist the drug without any help from your impact armor, and if you dodged fully then there was no effect.

[The White Dwarf]

mmu1,

There is no where I saw where it says the drugs power is reduced by half of impact. Nor did I ever state so. If theres a quote that shows it, by all means post it. But the passage you cited has no mention of it.

Also, no where did I ever say the dart had to deal damage for the drug to work. I said if the dart was totally avoided (ie, hardened armor or dodge) then the drug never had a vector to affect the target. The reference to 4L there was resisting the darts damage, my claim was meant to imply that no runner would ever take damage from a 4L hit half impact or not. As in, the threat isnt the darts damage, its the toxin it carries. Spent a few minutes looking for the damage code as listed and didnt find it, mightve been in a module but could just as easily be lost on an obscure page or something we used as convetion in our games. The handcrossbow is 4L, the paintgun is 4L, and im pretty sure it came up in a module where the guards had darts doing 4L plus 6D Stun for narcoject. If the dart has no seperate damage code my point is unaffected; either you dodge the toxin or bend over.

[mmu1]

[Thistledown]

[Edward]

[Thistledown]

The darts do come in a clip, but I'm trying to visualize how that would work, and I suppose pistol darts might be in a self-contained clip. Rifle darts I immagine being about the size of a stylus for a pda, so they'd be harder to have self-contained.

Also, while capsule rounds get around this, and can be fired from normal weapons, normal weapons make noise and flash, while darts do not, being mainly air powered.

[Kremlin KOA]

I like silencers 8)

[RedmondLarry]

Twofalls, there are several good responses above. I'll just summarize, and include page numbers.

Here are the basic places you need to look:
SR3.249 - Basic information on resisting affects.
SR3.250 - Neuro-stun, Narcoject, and Gamma-Scopolamine.
CC.51 - Hardened Armor can not be penetrated by dartguns, blowguns and needle attacks, all of which have no damage code.
MM.116 - cost and ranges for Dart Pistol, Rifle and darts.
MM.106 - rules for Exposure via Weapons
.. Antidote use
.. Additional Doses
.. Body Resistance Test
(says Instantaneous toxins are resisted at the end of the turn)

Overall:
Target is affected if dodge isn't completely successful, and target isn't wearing hardened armor.
If delivery mechanism (e.g. capsule rounds) does damage, then extra successes of the attacker stage up that damage, otherwise each two successes raises the power of the drug by 1.
Combat pool dice may be used to offset the damage of the delivery mechanism (e.g. capsule rounds).
And Combat pool dice may be used to resist the effects of the drug, but just choose how many Combat Pool dice will be used and set them aside, as the final power is not yet known.
A second dose delivered before the first takes affect will raise the damage level (L, M, S, D) one level.
Third and subsequent doses before the first takes affect will raise the power of the drug by 1.
The power of the drug is normally lowered by half the rating of impact armor, but a successful called shot to an unarmored part of the target nullifies any impact armor worn. If the weapon also causes damage (e.g. capsule rounds) then the called shot can either raise the Damage Level of that, or can negate the worn armor.
At the end of the speed time, the Body roll to resist is made, using all the above adjustments, and any Combat Pool dice set aside when the first dose was delivered.

I hope that helps.

[The White Dwarf]

mmu1, its cool these things happen. One day I checked 4 different message boards and the post I made at the end of that day made little sense. Np.

[spotlite]

Another question (sorry to resurrect an old thread, but its relevant. To me, anyhow).

The SR3 errata states that shots can be called to bypass armour. Would this apply to hardened armour? What about a full set of milspec plus helmet? Take this as a general question if you like, because if you can do it to milspec with a gun, I see no reason why you can't do it with a dart. I'm curious, because in one of the fiction pieces in Renraku Shutdown, one of the special forces team gets hit in the hand with a dart, and it affects them just fine. On the assumption that being special forces going into an unknown situation would probably warrant at least a full suit of light milspec plus helmet, probably with hazmat gear and an air supply, I figure the only way this could happen is if it was a called shot.

However, I do understand that its from a fiction piece, and shutdown is an SR2 book. So as far as rules mechanic's go, I'm sure some of you will dismiss it (and fairly so, but some might not, and I think that's fair enough too). But I'm curious what people think.

True, I'm mainly asking because one of my player teams is about to finally finish completely outfitting everyone with milspec, and I want to know if they can still be felled without a headshot from a handcannon that might kill them outright! (I CAN think of other ways, but I'm interested in this specific approach because its quite lo-tek)

[spotlite]

Oh, and I also recognise that those bumblebees would have a REAL hard time making called shots with the number of dice they have, but hey *shrugs*, its Deus...

[Herald of Verjig...]

[spotlite]

Sorry. I meant FAQ. I just checked the errata first. Ok, well, for the purposes of my question if anyone else wants a pop at it (thanks for the heads up and the interpretation Herald), can we assume that the FAQ is generally taken as acceptable as far as I'm concerned? Generally. I'm happy to hear reasons why not, but there's probably already a thread on that somewhere...!

Oh, and herald - why would the chemseal make a difference against a dart? surely that would be punctured if the armour was capable of being bypassed?

What I'm getting at is - is a full suit of hardened milspec considered hardened on every possible location? The gloves? the neck? Entirely? obviously it doesn't really go into that much detail in the book, but it seems to me that if for instance the gloves (or joints, or whatever) were completely hardened, you would have a hard time gripping your gun without a specially modified grip, wouldn't you? I can see a hazmat or other seal remaining intact without hardening, but this would not be armoured in and of itself, so surely would have no effect on a dart as opposed to a slap patch?

I'm getting myself confused, I'm sure, and possibly too concerned with detail here, but my players have a worrying tendency to go into that much detail occasionally!

I'm not being argumentative, I'm just trying to get to grips with it.

[FrostyNSO]

Most tactical teams nowadays issue body armor with a groin covering.