Politics!, Because it's that time of year... Options

[LinaInverse]

No, not RL politics (thankfully)...

I recently read through New Seattle SB and there's s section on the political machine. One of my current characters has KN: Politics as a hobby/side profession. My question is has anyone successfully (or not so) done a Shadowrun plot that involved politics? Perhaps one of the candidates hires the runners to plant evidence against his opponent? Or get rid of evidence of his own wrong-doings? Or hires the runners to conduct interdiction operations (several break-ins in a row) against polling/voting areas favorable to the opponent? Perhaps in the end, get a contact with one of the city councilmen?

[Nikoli]

Written, yes. Gotten teh chance to run, no.

[simonw2000]

Loads of opportunity

[Req]

Super Tuesday!

[CircuitBoyBlue]

Politics come up all the time in my games, mostly due to the fact that at least two of us are political junkies/activists, and the others get peer pressured into it. Also, we play in Southern Ohio, where in the past month or so our particular town has played host to both presidential candidates and one of the running mates, so it's a pretty politically charged atmosphere. Our runs themselves only occasionally center on politics, but it frequently comes up indirectly, usually in a really subtle manner. (Candidate B wants to weaken Incumbent A's sway with the business community in Ward 3, nearly any shadowrun going down there can make Ward 3 a less appealing place for corps to do business; the trick is to come up with the intricacies to make it have an effect big enough to be worth breaking the law for).

Quite honestly, though, when it comes to politics, the nasty ways to play usually involve shady types other than your typical shadowrunner. I can see a nifty campaign involving a character set up like the cybersnoops descriped in Shadowbeat, only twisted into Opp. Research and PR guys. I'd kind of like to see some rules on who actually gets to vote, though. This one question in particular has been nagging me: free spirits can own property and stock, which to me suggests citizenship, and thus the right to vote. It seems like one could easily create a crapload of low-level free spirits who would feel indebted toward him or her, and flood the polls. The only problem I can see would be that it would take boatloads of karma and time, but a lot of people might see attaining high-level political office as worth it.

[Garland]

Can't legal fictions own property and stock? Just because a thing can own something else, it doesn't mean it can vote.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

"Legal fictions?" I think you meant to type "Legal factions," but that's a great typo when referring to free spirits.

You're right, I was probably hasty in jumping to conclusions with voting rights, but does anybody know exactly what the wording was on the Dunklezahn decision? If it gave "awakened beings" the right to run for office, I can't imagine it not giving them the right to vote, and that would include free spirits. And if the wording was Dragon-specific, I think it would be awesome to see a bunch of Sasquatches file a lawsuit over it.

[LinaInverse]

Strictly speaking, it depends on 1) if spirits are considered "alive" in legal terms, 2) whether their birth is when they're conjured, or become free (if distinct) and 3) if the Astral plane is considered UCAS/CAS/whatever territory.

In today's legal terms, anyone "born" in the US is automatically a citizen. If spirits are considered alive and "born", then a court would have probably ruled them citizens, with all rights/responsibilities/etc. Note that, if that ruling did occur, this would mean that spirits are also legally obligated to participate in jury duty, pay taxes, be counted in the census, and other mundane things (or be considered law breakers). On the other hand, if the courts ruled that spirits could not have citizenship due to the inability to be counted and identified, then it becomes questionable on how they can "legally" own property, since there are laws and regulations for "foreigners" owning territory past a certain point. Maybe some of this has already been hashed out in the canon fiction; I don't read it, so I wouldn't know.

As for Awakened, well, that's a broad category. As I understand it, any mage/physAd/shaman are considered Awakened. Since Dunklezahn became President-Elect, then that proves there must have been a court ruling in the past that ruled that sentients other than human/humanoids could be counted as citizens.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

You have to have a SIN to vote in the UCAS. Only metahumans can have SINs. Dunkelzahn earned his SIN, literally, through an Act of Congress. Which is what the 14th Amendment requires for non-metahumans.

The blank Politics Knowledge Skill has always seemed to be a very absurd skill because it's generally either too limited to be useful, or too broad to require anything else. First of all, as SR3 says, if it's left that vague then I'd be more than willing to narrow its construction to near irrelevance.

That being said, on one hand, it can be limited to knowledge of the political process--that is, the organizations of political parties, PACs, SIGs, policlubs, and other machines; the nomination, selection, balloting process; the general knowledge of campaigns, finance, political communication and management; and the basics of the political process as taught in second grade social studies.

OTOH, it can be rather broad in terms of not just what, but who as well--and that is a hell of a lot more important. Who are the big contributors, whose in their network, who are they backing (or backstabbing), what are the various alliances, back channels, party players and the people who get things done.

Because I'm a bastard, I limit my PC's knowledge if they ever used, say, UCAS Politics to the former. Especially in that case because that's a hell of political activity to cover, so they know the basics about UCAS political organizations, who the candidates are, who the loudest voices are, and generally the kind of things you'd learn if you studied in secong grade social studies and paid attention in high school government class, and watch Meet the Press whenever you're not passed out/dead/on a run/not watching something more interesting.

[Nath]

[LinaInverse]

Frankly, I disagree with you then Crimson. A char who actually bought KN: Politics to 5 and has the Edge: College Education (as opposed to a char who didn't bother buying either) is going to know more than Joe Average who managed to stay awake during government class in public high school. If you wanted to restrict it to UCAS politics, then that's fair, since most campaigns take place there. But once you're talking about a skill of 5-7 or so, you're talking the equivalent of a Dick Morris, or a Robert Novak or Tucker Carlson. If you really think that someone with a Politics 7 doesn't rate higher than second-grade social studies, then I'm sorry, but you are a bastard.

I didn't know that UCAS scrapped the entire former US Constitution, but I guess I should have suspected it. I really should read the canon more closely. I think though that an act of Congress is pretty extreme and frankly unrealistic, considering the kind of inertia there is at the National level. Basically then, the number of SIN'ed non-homo-sapiens can't number higher than the single-digits, and given the sheer numbers that live in the UCAS/CAS, I'm amazed that there hasn't been any kind of legal action or PAC formed to get that changed.

[Kanada Ten]

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Well, that also exposes a general flaw in the College Educated edge, but I digress...

First, I want to make a distinction between the Political Science Knowledge Skill and the Politics Knowledge Skill. The PoliSci skill is just that--academic knowledge of the field of political science. I'd even be willing to break it down into the five fields of PoliSci field as recognized by the APSA (American, International, Comparative, Theory, Methodology) as specializations rather than insist each be its own skill. That's all theoretical, however. Someone with PoliSci/Theory 6/8 can write a book on the foundation of the City on a Hill mythos, but that doesn't mean they can name their Congressman.

But the problem is that Politics (assuming knowledge, because anything Active would be a specialization of Ettiquette or something else) is a very broad term. The very term itself can mean (and in the way I use it generally) to refer to the social interactions of human society. First, interpreting that skill's scope broadly is to ignore the maxim that,
"All politics are local." Secondly, it goes against the context of similar skills in the SR3 book. Assuming a broad scope, a valid specialization of Politics could easily be Politics (UCAS), which is still incredibly vague, whereas a more legitimate specialization of the skill would be (IMW) as Politics ("Campaign Management, Lobbying and Government Relations, Issues Management and Advocacy, Fundraising, Corporate and Trade Association Public Affairs, Polling and Strategic Research, Political Leadership, and Politics and Public Policy" Source). I figured that it would be as good enough a place to start as any being the only degree-granting program in the United States that teaches exclusively political skills.

Given that list, which I think is a pretty reasonable one, it is still confined to the confines of the United States for all intents and purposes. Comparing national politics between the U.S. and most of the rest of the world, until recently, really wasted most of this knowledge. It wasn't until 1997 that Tony Blair set up a "war room" like the one the Clinton campaign ran in 1992, or Schroeder's re-election campaign in Germany (which is generally a political machine that hasn't been around here for a long time). However, just because I know how to theoretically run a campaign--where to such for volunteers, how to follow FEC regulations, and the general process for running a campaign doesn't mean I can run a campaign.

Moreover, an overly vague Politics skill, even taking into account that it is defaulting to your country, 'plex or state, still generally focuses on the top-level. A UCAS Politics skill is going to be focused on national politics, which are generally where having a theoretical skill may as well be as useful as screaming at Tim Russert as far as any utility. I would demand that if a character wanted to actually be involved in a campaign, they ought to have a good Ettiquette (Politics) skill, and knowledge skills which reflect their actual knowledge of political figures--and the Politics skill isn't going to cut it. Someone with Underworld Syndicates, Political Parties, Policlubs, Issue Advocacy Groups, Local Media Outlets, and Election Financing would generally be a good start and wholly separate from a Politics skill.

But, frankly, what matters most is Ettiquette and contacts--lots of contacts. The PoliSci and Politics skills can tell you so much. But when it happens, you need the Ettiquette skill (and Negotiation, and Intimidation sometimes) to actually get anything done.

As far as a skill indicating who's who and what's what, those are either academic or social familiarity skills (Famous Politicians, or something). (X) Politics is, IMW, a purely academic skill, though.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

[LinaInverse]

For what it's worth, the character in question also has Etiquette, Negotiation, and a long list of contacts.

I would agree that Political Science would be another skill, mainly history and academic info about one's home country. In my mind, someone with a high PoliSci skill could conceivably write a textbook or publish a political white paper, but not necessarily be able to participate in current elections/activities.

I would classify Politics as a knowledge skill that means that the person knows his local representatives and major national figures, along with their basic platforms and major current issues of discussion. A decent roll should allow a character to dig up specifics if he takes time to do the research (again, IMHO).

[Kremlin KOA]

tell me crimson in your game what is the difference between politics 2 and politics 8?

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

It's like knowing how to run a campaign to become student body president vs. knowing how to run a campaign to put someone in the Senate.

[Abstruse]

How is an act of congress giving Dunkelzahn citizenship unrealistic? In Texas, State Representative Tom Moore Jr. from Waco had an act passed in the state legislature honoring a man named Albert de Salvo.

"This compassionate gentleman's dedication and devotion to his work has enabled the weak and the lonely throughout the nation to achieve and maintain a new degree of concern for their future. He has been officially recognized by the state of Massachusetts for his noted activities and unconventional techniques involving population control and applied psychology."

For those who don't know, Albert de Salvo is the Boston Strangler. The state legislature passed it easily as it wasn't of much consequence to them and generally, senators and representatives don't actually READ the laws they sign...they just do what they're told by the people in charge of their party. Here is the link for the Snopes.com article on the de Salvo resolution.

Also, let's not forget the young man whose tireless efforts in his science fair project who warned us of the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide...and if you don't get it, think about it for a moment...most people don't. And that's why laws get passed.

The Abstruse One

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Hell, the PATRIOT Act wasn't even read by most if any Congressmen.

Of course, it's also over 300 pages long as was printed in the middle of the night...

[LinaInverse]

Unrealistic is probably not the right word. Basically, what I meant is that if it takes an Act of Congress, it's almost never going to happen; we're talking maybe 1 citizen every 5-15 years or so. Given the sheer population of sentient critters, free spirits, that's a lot of sentients to deny basic rights for quite a long time. But like others have said in this thread, yeah, that's the pattern of history. I would still think that, perhaps given a few more decades or so, they'll eventually be a political movement like the Civil Rights movement or Women's Suffrage equivalent for non-Homo Sapiens for "equal rights for sentients" or something like that.

[toturi]

Just be glad there isn't a Metahuman Control Act.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Actually, an act of congress can happen with surprising ease. All you need is a contact in the bureaucracy who can tag a paragraph about you getting full rights as a citizen on page 73 of that bill they are debating. It does take at least a level 2 contact in the right place with a good sense of timing, but that's just to get it done successfully the first time. An incompetent friend in the right place will get it passed eventually.

Now, getting a congress to vote only on your claim of citizenship will be a monumental challenge unless you carry as much influence as a great dragon with a talk show.

[Nath]

[Garland]

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

No, it hasn't.