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LinaInverse
No, not RL politics (thankfully)...

I recently read through New Seattle SB and there's s section on the political machine. One of my current characters has KN: Politics as a hobby/side profession. My question is has anyone successfully (or not so) done a Shadowrun plot that involved politics? Perhaps one of the candidates hires the runners to plant evidence against his opponent? Or get rid of evidence of his own wrong-doings? Or hires the runners to conduct interdiction operations (several break-ins in a row) against polling/voting areas favorable to the opponent? Perhaps in the end, get a contact with one of the city councilmen?
Nikoli
Written, yes. Gotten teh chance to run, no.
simonw2000
Loads of opportunity
Req
Super Tuesday!
CircuitBoyBlue
Politics come up all the time in my games, mostly due to the fact that at least two of us are political junkies/activists, and the others get peer pressured into it. Also, we play in Southern Ohio, where in the past month or so our particular town has played host to both presidential candidates and one of the running mates, so it's a pretty politically charged atmosphere. Our runs themselves only occasionally center on politics, but it frequently comes up indirectly, usually in a really subtle manner. (Candidate B wants to weaken Incumbent A's sway with the business community in Ward 3, nearly any shadowrun going down there can make Ward 3 a less appealing place for corps to do business; the trick is to come up with the intricacies to make it have an effect big enough to be worth breaking the law for).

Quite honestly, though, when it comes to politics, the nasty ways to play usually involve shady types other than your typical shadowrunner. I can see a nifty campaign involving a character set up like the cybersnoops descriped in Shadowbeat, only twisted into Opp. Research and PR guys. I'd kind of like to see some rules on who actually gets to vote, though. This one question in particular has been nagging me: free spirits can own property and stock, which to me suggests citizenship, and thus the right to vote. It seems like one could easily create a crapload of low-level free spirits who would feel indebted toward him or her, and flood the polls. The only problem I can see would be that it would take boatloads of karma and time, but a lot of people might see attaining high-level political office as worth it.
Garland
Can't legal fictions own property and stock? Just because a thing can own something else, it doesn't mean it can vote.
CircuitBoyBlue
"Legal fictions?" I think you meant to type "Legal factions," but that's a great typo when referring to free spirits.

You're right, I was probably hasty in jumping to conclusions with voting rights, but does anybody know exactly what the wording was on the Dunklezahn decision? If it gave "awakened beings" the right to run for office, I can't imagine it not giving them the right to vote, and that would include free spirits. And if the wording was Dragon-specific, I think it would be awesome to see a bunch of Sasquatches file a lawsuit over it.
LinaInverse
Strictly speaking, it depends on 1) if spirits are considered "alive" in legal terms, 2) whether their birth is when they're conjured, or become free (if distinct) and 3) if the Astral plane is considered UCAS/CAS/whatever territory.

In today's legal terms, anyone "born" in the US is automatically a citizen. If spirits are considered alive and "born", then a court would have probably ruled them citizens, with all rights/responsibilities/etc. Note that, if that ruling did occur, this would mean that spirits are also legally obligated to participate in jury duty, pay taxes, be counted in the census, and other mundane things (or be considered law breakers). On the other hand, if the courts ruled that spirits could not have citizenship due to the inability to be counted and identified, then it becomes questionable on how they can "legally" own property, since there are laws and regulations for "foreigners" owning territory past a certain point. Maybe some of this has already been hashed out in the canon fiction; I don't read it, so I wouldn't know.

As for Awakened, well, that's a broad category. As I understand it, any mage/physAd/shaman are considered Awakened. Since Dunklezahn became President-Elect, then that proves there must have been a court ruling in the past that ruled that sentients other than human/humanoids could be counted as citizens.
Crimsondude 2.0
You have to have a SIN to vote in the UCAS. Only metahumans can have SINs. Dunkelzahn earned his SIN, literally, through an Act of Congress. Which is what the 14th Amendment requires for non-metahumans.

The blank Politics Knowledge Skill has always seemed to be a very absurd skill because it's generally either too limited to be useful, or too broad to require anything else. First of all, as SR3 says, if it's left that vague then I'd be more than willing to narrow its construction to near irrelevance.

That being said, on one hand, it can be limited to knowledge of the political process--that is, the organizations of political parties, PACs, SIGs, policlubs, and other machines; the nomination, selection, balloting process; the general knowledge of campaigns, finance, political communication and management; and the basics of the political process as taught in second grade social studies.

OTOH, it can be rather broad in terms of not just what, but who as well--and that is a hell of a lot more important. Who are the big contributors, whose in their network, who are they backing (or backstabbing), what are the various alliances, back channels, party players and the people who get things done.

Because I'm a bastard, I limit my PC's knowledge if they ever used, say, UCAS Politics to the former. Especially in that case because that's a hell of political activity to cover, so they know the basics about UCAS political organizations, who the candidates are, who the loudest voices are, and generally the kind of things you'd learn if you studied in secong grade social studies and paid attention in high school government class, and watch Meet the Press whenever you're not passed out/dead/on a run/not watching something more interesting.
Nath
QUOTE (LinaInverse @ Oct 21 2004, 11:31 PM)
Since Dunklezahn became President-Elect, then that proves there must have been a court ruling in the past that ruled that sentients other than human/humanoids could be counted as citizens.

Better than a court, a Constitutional Amendment. The 14th Amendment to the UCAS Constitution, ratified in 2036, established SIN and 'probationary citizen' status (the SINless) who are not allowed to vote in federal election. Species other than Homo Sapiens can become probationary citizen, but only an act of the Congress can make them full-fledged citizens. Dunkelzahn got such act in 2056.
LinaInverse
Frankly, I disagree with you then Crimson. A char who actually bought KN: Politics to 5 and has the Edge: College Education (as opposed to a char who didn't bother buying either) is going to know more than Joe Average who managed to stay awake during government class in public high school. If you wanted to restrict it to UCAS politics, then that's fair, since most campaigns take place there. But once you're talking about a skill of 5-7 or so, you're talking the equivalent of a Dick Morris, or a Robert Novak or Tucker Carlson. If you really think that someone with a Politics 7 doesn't rate higher than second-grade social studies, then I'm sorry, but you are a bastard.

I didn't know that UCAS scrapped the entire former US Constitution, but I guess I should have suspected it. I really should read the canon more closely. I think though that an act of Congress is pretty extreme and frankly unrealistic, considering the kind of inertia there is at the National level. Basically then, the number of SIN'ed non-homo-sapiens can't number higher than the single-digits, and given the sheer numbers that live in the UCAS/CAS, I'm amazed that there hasn't been any kind of legal action or PAC formed to get that changed.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
I think though that an act of Congress is pretty extreme and frankly unrealistic, considering the kind of inertia there is at the National level.

It has happened once to my knowledge, and we can only imagine the amount of contributions Dunkelzahn made (and his wealth was significant).

QUOTE
Basically then, the number of SIN'ed non-homo-sapiens can't number higher than the single-digits, and given the sheer numbers that live in the UCAS/CAS, I'm amazed that there hasn't been any kind of legal action or PAC formed to get that changed.

Who says there hasn't been? As you say, trying to change something in Washington for a group that cannot currently vote is pretty slim, even more so when it would require ratification by 2/3 of the UCAS, much of which is still extremely 'racist' (Legalized Insect Spirits?! Vote No on Prop 42!), I doubt much progress can be made. The current administration has attempted to grant SINs for thousands of probationary [metahuman] citizens with very limited success.
Crimsondude 2.0
Well, that also exposes a general flaw in the College Educated edge, but I digress...

First, I want to make a distinction between the Political Science Knowledge Skill and the Politics Knowledge Skill. The PoliSci skill is just that--academic knowledge of the field of political science. I'd even be willing to break it down into the five fields of PoliSci field as recognized by the APSA (American, International, Comparative, Theory, Methodology) as specializations rather than insist each be its own skill. That's all theoretical, however. Someone with PoliSci/Theory 6/8 can write a book on the foundation of the City on a Hill mythos, but that doesn't mean they can name their Congressman.

But the problem is that Politics (assuming knowledge, because anything Active would be a specialization of Ettiquette or something else) is a very broad term. The very term itself can mean (and in the way I use it generally) to refer to the social interactions of human society. First, interpreting that skill's scope broadly is to ignore the maxim that,
"All politics are local." Secondly, it goes against the context of similar skills in the SR3 book. Assuming a broad scope, a valid specialization of Politics could easily be Politics (UCAS), which is still incredibly vague, whereas a more legitimate specialization of the skill would be (IMW) as Politics ("Campaign Management, Lobbying and Government Relations, Issues Management and Advocacy, Fundraising, Corporate and Trade Association Public Affairs, Polling and Strategic Research, Political Leadership, and Politics and Public Policy" Source). I figured that it would be as good enough a place to start as any being the only degree-granting program in the United States that teaches exclusively political skills.

Given that list, which I think is a pretty reasonable one, it is still confined to the confines of the United States for all intents and purposes. Comparing national politics between the U.S. and most of the rest of the world, until recently, really wasted most of this knowledge. It wasn't until 1997 that Tony Blair set up a "war room" like the one the Clinton campaign ran in 1992, or Schroeder's re-election campaign in Germany (which is generally a political machine that hasn't been around here for a long time). However, just because I know how to theoretically run a campaign--where to such for volunteers, how to follow FEC regulations, and the general process for running a campaign doesn't mean I can run a campaign.

Moreover, an overly vague Politics skill, even taking into account that it is defaulting to your country, 'plex or state, still generally focuses on the top-level. A UCAS Politics skill is going to be focused on national politics, which are generally where having a theoretical skill may as well be as useful as screaming at Tim Russert as far as any utility. I would demand that if a character wanted to actually be involved in a campaign, they ought to have a good Ettiquette (Politics) skill, and knowledge skills which reflect their actual knowledge of political figures--and the Politics skill isn't going to cut it. Someone with Underworld Syndicates, Political Parties, Policlubs, Issue Advocacy Groups, Local Media Outlets, and Election Financing would generally be a good start and wholly separate from a Politics skill.

But, frankly, what matters most is Ettiquette and contacts--lots of contacts. The PoliSci and Politics skills can tell you so much. But when it happens, you need the Ettiquette skill (and Negotiation, and Intimidation sometimes) to actually get anything done.

As far as a skill indicating who's who and what's what, those are either academic or social familiarity skills (Famous Politicians, or something). (X) Politics is, IMW, a purely academic skill, though.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
QUOTE
I think though that an act of Congress is pretty extreme and frankly unrealistic, considering the kind of inertia there is at the National level.

It has happened once to my knowledge, and we can only imagine the amount of contributions Dunkelzahn made (and his wealth was significant).

Not as much as they hoped.

QUOTE

QUOTE
Basically then, the number of SIN'ed non-homo-sapiens can't number higher than the single-digits, and given the sheer numbers that live in the UCAS/CAS, I'm amazed that there hasn't been any kind of legal action or PAC formed to get that changed.

Who says there hasn't been? As you say, trying to change something in Washington for a group that cannot currently vote is pretty slim, even more so when it would require ratification by 2/3 of the UCAS, much of which is still extremely 'racist' (Legalized Insect Spirits?! Vote No on Prop 42!), I doubt much progress can be made. The current administration has attempted to grant SINs for thousands of probationary [metahuman] citizens with very limited success.

Indeed. It took women the better part of a century to have the right.

It took blacks a century to get the right protected.
LinaInverse
For what it's worth, the character in question also has Etiquette, Negotiation, and a long list of contacts.

I would agree that Political Science would be another skill, mainly history and academic info about one's home country. In my mind, someone with a high PoliSci skill could conceivably write a textbook or publish a political white paper, but not necessarily be able to participate in current elections/activities.

I would classify Politics as a knowledge skill that means that the person knows his local representatives and major national figures, along with their basic platforms and major current issues of discussion. A decent roll should allow a character to dig up specifics if he takes time to do the research (again, IMHO).
Kremlin KOA
tell me crimson in your game what is the difference between politics 2 and politics 8?
Crimsondude 2.0
It's like knowing how to run a campaign to become student body president vs. knowing how to run a campaign to put someone in the Senate.
Abstruse
How is an act of congress giving Dunkelzahn citizenship unrealistic? In Texas, State Representative Tom Moore Jr. from Waco had an act passed in the state legislature honoring a man named Albert de Salvo.

"This compassionate gentleman's dedication and devotion to his work has enabled the weak and the lonely throughout the nation to achieve and maintain a new degree of concern for their future. He has been officially recognized by the state of Massachusetts for his noted activities and unconventional techniques involving population control and applied psychology."

For those who don't know, Albert de Salvo is the Boston Strangler. The state legislature passed it easily as it wasn't of much consequence to them and generally, senators and representatives don't actually READ the laws they sign...they just do what they're told by the people in charge of their party. Here is the link for the Snopes.com article on the de Salvo resolution.

Also, let's not forget the young man whose tireless efforts in his science fair project who warned us of the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide...and if you don't get it, think about it for a moment...most people don't. And that's why laws get passed.

The Abstruse One
Crimsondude 2.0
Hell, the PATRIOT Act wasn't even read by most if any Congressmen.

Of course, it's also over 300 pages long as was printed in the middle of the night...

LinaInverse
Unrealistic is probably not the right word. Basically, what I meant is that if it takes an Act of Congress, it's almost never going to happen; we're talking maybe 1 citizen every 5-15 years or so. Given the sheer population of sentient critters, free spirits, that's a lot of sentients to deny basic rights for quite a long time. But like others have said in this thread, yeah, that's the pattern of history. I would still think that, perhaps given a few more decades or so, they'll eventually be a political movement like the Civil Rights movement or Women's Suffrage equivalent for non-Homo Sapiens for "equal rights for sentients" or something like that.
toturi
Just be glad there isn't a Metahuman Control Act.
Herald of Verjigorm
Actually, an act of congress can happen with surprising ease. All you need is a contact in the bureaucracy who can tag a paragraph about you getting full rights as a citizen on page 73 of that bill they are debating. It does take at least a level 2 contact in the right place with a good sense of timing, but that's just to get it done successfully the first time. An incompetent friend in the right place will get it passed eventually.

Now, getting a congress to vote only on your claim of citizenship will be a monumental challenge unless you carry as much influence as a great dragon with a talk show.
Nath
QUOTE (SR3 - "And so it came to pass")
Amendment to the UCAS Constitution. Ratified that same year, the [14th] amendment established the System Identification Number (SIN) and required the registration of every UCAS citizen. People without SINs were defined as "probationary citizens," with sharply limited rights. (Yup, Mr. Pinkie Shadowrunner Wannabe, that means you.) The amendment made species other than homo sapiens eligible for—you guessed it—probationary citizenship. Full citizenship to such "undesirables" could be granted only by act of Congress. (Not a single application actually was granted until 2056, when the late, lamented Dunkelzahn got the nod.)
Garland
QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue)
"Legal fictions?" I think you meant to type "Legal factions," but that's a great typo when referring to free spirits.

You're right, I was probably hasty in jumping to conclusions with voting rights, but does anybody know exactly what the wording was on the Dunklezahn decision? If it gave "awakened beings" the right to run for office, I can't imagine it not giving them the right to vote, and that would include free spirits. And if the wording was Dragon-specific, I think it would be awesome to see a bunch of Sasquatches file a lawsuit over it.

Actually, I meant legal fictions as in corporations. They pay taxes, can own things, but are not real people. And thus don't vote. Or has that changed in SR?
Crimsondude 2.0
No, it hasn't.
LinaInverse
So, getting back to my original topic at hand, no one has run a story plot/arc/shadowrun game session involving politics or political figures?
DocMortand
*chuckle* I have a feeling when our campaign gets into the campaign season of 2060 we'll have a bit more politics in our campaign...don't worry. Just gotta get there first...*plod plod plod*
Kremlin KOA
I ran campaigns set in 57 election time three times... tweo groups were a total party kill and the third made it through with minimal PC losses

two attempts were with experienced shadowrun players one was with a new group

guess which group lived
CircuitBoyBlue
My group's just about hitting the 2052 election cycle, so it might come up. I just need to read up on what offices actually get elected in that year. I THINK Seattle governor gets elected, a senator probably gets elected, and I'm not entirely sure if Seattle gets members in the House, but if it does, they'll be up for re-election. Plus, of course, local city council seats and district mayors. The presidential election will probably have little/no impact on the shadow community, because it's scope isn't entirely confined to Seattle like everything else. If the group was based in DeeCee, I can definitely see a break-in at the Watergate, though...

As far as the difference between a Poli Sci skill of 2 and a Poli Sci skill of 6 and what they represent, I'd say a lot of it depends more on the specific specialization of Poli Sci than just the rating of the skill. For instance, if you're a Political Theory person, a high level skill is probably going to represent you having a PhD and done many years of research beyond that. For a campaign management skill, I personally have taken 4 years of courses about that and gone through an institute specifically devoted to it, and I probably wouldn't have more than a 2 or 3 in the skill. Even with a doctorate, the skill wouldn't be that high. It's one of those things where actual experience is generally seen as the only real indication of one's skill. People with a campaign management skill of 6 or higher have probably managed both winning and losing campaigns for many years.

As to a 2 political skill representing knowing how to get someone elected student body president and a 6 being knowing how to get someone elected UCAS president, I would disagree. It's more of an opposed test thing. My old school, American University, is crawling with poli sci dorks, and when SC (student confederation) elections roll around (or even for any other student organization there, for that matter), every side gets really serious. Being able to beat the other guy doens't just require a 2, it requires being able to roll more success than your opponent. In contrast, in my district in Ohio, the guy that banned the use of the term "french fry" could have a shaved monkey with a Hitler tattoo running his Congressional campaign (skill of 1 at best), and he'd still win, because he never faces any real opposition. I'm sure his campaign manager isn't a shaved nazi monkey with a skill rating of 1, but he or she COULD be, and that's the point. Right there, the student body presidential race at AU requires a higher skill rating than most Congressional races. Actually, now that I think about it, that may be a bad example just because of the nature of Congress. Think about it this way: if one side in a 2 sided race for some reason isn't fielding reasonable opposition, you don't need a high skill to beat them, no matter what level the race is at. I'm sure Reagan's people didn't need to be that skilled to beat Mondale (not saying Mondale's dumb, just saying he wasn't that viable a presidential candidate). The Kerry and Bush teams need the highest skills they can get, because they are both facing extremely competent opposition. But if one side only had a skill of 5, the other side would only need a skill of 5 to remain competitive (or if they got lucky, they could get by with a 3 or 4). Of course, other factors creep in. You can have a high skill all you want, if your guy is seen as having given Willy Horton a weekend furlough and someone's address, and then gets his picture taken in a tank, there's going to be some hefty target number modifiers working against you.
Crimsondude 2.0
PoliSci is different from Politics (which the SR3 book calls too broad and all-encompassing for a GM to allow on p.89). I mean, hell, based on the descriptions in SR3, I'd have a PoliSci skill of 4.

And when I said student body president, I mean High School. OTOH, student body elections in the D.C. universities are definitely different from those elsewhere. I still have the City Paper article describing how several of the presidents were impeached, resigned or otherwise didn't serve out their terms. My roommate ran the campaign for one of those presidents, and it was a trip and a half. Senate would be 8. President would be 10 or 12.

Anyway, Seattle has representatives in the House and Senate. The Governor is elected, as are the representatives to the Seattle Congress, and the mayors and councilmembers are as well.

As for their involvement, it all depends on what happens in the election and whether or not someone in Seattle needs to die/disappear/change their story.
CircuitBoyBlue
Some parts of Seattle, too, are more shady about their elections than others. I can't recall the Seattle sourcebook entirely off the top of my head, but I think I remember Puyallup being big into machine politics, which lend themselves really well toward runs.

And my whole point was that you can't just assign a skill value to a race like that. It would be an opposed test, meaning that what you need is based entirely on what the other guy has. Sure, in presidential races, that's usually going to be really high, but if the other guy has a really high skill level on his campaign team, but a lot of scandals, then you can get away with a much lower level skill.

As for DC university politics, they get rough; my first forray was when my roomate tried (unsuccessfully and without my prior knowledge) to blackmail his way into getting me appointed chair of a board that up until that time had been convened less than once a year. During the four years I was there, the one year term of Vice President was held by I think 7 different people. My senior year, 2/3 of the legislative branch changed the entire governing documents other than the SC constitution overnight and replaced our speaker and all our committee chairs, because otherwise we all would have been impeached in a kangaroo court run by about 4 kids who hated everyone. Yes, it is intense. But the thing is, there's high schools in this country where student government gets to be about that level. I certainly didn't go to one, but I know kids who did. My point was that the level of difficulty in running an election is entirely independent of the level of power being sought; it just depends on the level of the opposition. In fact, Kissinger has a great quote about university politics (not student politics, faculty politics). I will have to paraphrase, but it went something like 'the fighting is more intense than anywhere else, because there is very little actual power to be had.'
Crimsondude 2.0
Indeed. The epitome of zero-sum politics.
Kremlin KOA
oh crimson considering with a knowledge skill of 8 in a field EVERYONE in that field references your info "when they speak of poliSci they use your name" Maciavelli would have had an 8 UN poli sci specs MIGHT have an 8 I think you overestmate the importance of US presidential elections
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