 Cyberware Addiction?, I know it's just asking for problems... |
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 Oct 26 2004, 12:34 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 201 Joined: 13-August 04 From: Fort Smith, Arkansas Member No.: 6,560  |
I was just wondering, similar to magic addiction from MITS, is it possible to have Cyberware addiction? What are it's symptoms and effects? This is a nice flavor as a disadvantage but would be horribly overrused but it could make cybered out street sams think twice about .01 essence, right? Anyway, just wondering thoughts on the subject.
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Oct 26 2004, 01:04 AM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Usually it's upgrade addictions. Anytime the individual sees or hears about a bit of ware that might be better than what's currently installed, priority 1 becomes getting that ware.
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Oct 26 2004, 01:15 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
Another flaw along the lines of combat monster and braggart? Doesn't really change the way a lot of players play anyway. :cyber:
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Oct 26 2004, 01:33 AM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 7-October 04 From: The Barrens Member No.: 6,732 |
I'm with Da9iel. The way essence loss was explained to me was that it makes you care less about people, and destroys your human nature. (no debates on what human nature is, please)
-UPTD |
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Oct 26 2004, 02:03 AM
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#5
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Ahh... cyberpsycosis.
In theory, essense loss causes a disconnection from humanity, a loss of empathy, and a weakening of one's moral center. The amoral sammie who values metahuman life slightly less than fabric softner is probably suffering from cyberpsycosis. It can also manifest as upgrade addiction. Usualy, upgrade addiction is characterized by a contempt or hatred for one's own remaining meat and for less cybered individuals. Delusions of invincibility and omnipotence are also common. For more extreme cases.... "Oh my beloved ice cream bar...how I love to lick your creamy center! HOOOWWWWWW......and your oh-so-nutty chocolate covering! You're not like the others...you like the same things I do! Waxed paper...boiled football leather...dog breath...We're not hitchhiking anymore! We're RIDING!" |
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Oct 26 2004, 02:18 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 90 |
"YOU coveted my ice cream bar!"
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Oct 26 2004, 03:26 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
Or, just enforce to SOTA rules for cyberware. Kinda silly, I think, but it could be quite an expensive penalty.
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Oct 26 2004, 04:08 AM
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#8
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
Yess sota rules. They make better bullets so everybody upgrades three armour but I don’t get a penalty for using 3 month old bullets. There a way to strip cash of the PCs but that’s all there good for.
Edward |
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Oct 26 2004, 05:33 AM
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#9
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
"You can't take it from me now. I've had this ice cream bar since I was a CHILD! People... always trying to take it from me! Why won't they LEAVE ME ALOOOOONNNNE?"
Just enforcing rules doesn't give you the fun that is a heavily-cybered troll talking to his ice cream bar. Cyberpsycosis is somewhat taken into account by the socal penalities that low essence characters recieve. The rest is just good RPing. |
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Oct 26 2004, 05:53 AM
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#10
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
One of the things I like about Shadowrun is that it completely lacks all of the ridiculous cyberpsychosis crap that plagues many other cyberpunkish games out there. I don't care what some overrated author writes, you're not going to lose all touch with reality just because you cut your arm off and had it replaced with a technological prosthetic (especially the craptacular Shadowrun variety of cyberlimbs) anymore than you're going to lose all touch with reality if you have a friggin' pacemaker installed.
"I'm more machine than man! That makes me an irrational monster! Rrrarrr! And, oh yeah, Japan's taking over the world financially!" Feh. Cyberpunk was 80's paranoia at its worst. That ranted, if you did want to include a character who blamed his implants for his piss-poor personality and insanity, just use the established Flaws creatively. Oblivious (dazed look as he loses touch with reality), Bad Reputation (distant, uncaring, and cold), Combat Monster (sympathy flew out the window a long time ago), and Bad Karma (nature's vindication against his heretical existance, though more likely self-sabotage for believing that crap) are all examples of ways to reflect a mucked-up personality that you can blame on your insanity. And as far as the social penalties for implants go, that has *nothing* to do with the character's mindset. It has to do with the people he's interacting with and their prejudice against freaks -- those penalties only apply if they notice you're sporting chrome, and some obvious implants don't even really matter when it comes to it. |
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Oct 26 2004, 08:59 AM
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#11
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Just cutting off an arm and replacing it with a piece of metal that isn't going to drive a person bonkers. However, it certainly can't help anyone's mental condition. Cyberpsycosis is just an exaberation of the mental problems that were already there. SHadowrunners aren't axactly the most mentaly stable group, on average. The SINless don't have access to quality mental health care, either. The average Barrons street doc who makes a living installing spurs in gangers isn't going to care if his clients are mildly delusional or boarderline schizophrenic and certainly won't provide any screening.
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Oct 26 2004, 09:05 AM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
actually cyberpsychosis, as in the cyberpunk genre term meant a psychological condition of sociopathy directly caused by the excessive implantation of cybernetics.
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Oct 26 2004, 12:48 PM
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#13
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No, but someone with a Math SPU would easily lose touch with what normal people can do math-wise, people with reflex enhancers would lose touch with the speed at which normal people can react, those with encephalons would find it easy to lose touch with what normal people can do with respect to multi-tasking. Not that it qualifies for cyberpsychosis, but I'd say that there's definitely a certain amount of alienation there. ~J |
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Oct 26 2004, 03:07 PM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No more than a guy with a calculator would in a world when no one else has a calculator. The monstrous bastard!
No more than a normal guy hanging out with a quadraplegic.
No more than anyone with abilities that someone else doesn't possess. All of that is as retarded as someone walking down the street under the delusional belief that because they have a watch and someone else doesn't when they ask him what time it is, they throw their hands triumphantly into the air and scream "I AM A GOD!" because they have the relatively ultimate power to tell time.
Only in an elitst sort of way at most, and only by elitists in the first place. |
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Oct 26 2004, 03:13 PM
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#15
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I disagree that the watch analogy is accurate. Not only are there times when the person with the watch will lack the watch, it will also require a conscious effort to look at said watch. If the math SPU, for example, is sufficiently transparent, I see no reason why the person would keep track of what operations were trivial before the implant unless a specific and deliberate attempt to do so was made.
~J |
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Oct 26 2004, 03:46 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118 |
Except that it's not some device you have to type numbers into. It's in your head, wired to your cortex, directly augmenting your mathematical capabilities. Mathematics, counting, these are fundamental aspects of thought and perception in an educated society with advanced engineering and sciences. Changing that changes the person's outlook and interactions with society.
I don't know about you, but I think that if suddenly, one day, 99.95% of the world's population became quadraplegics, I'd probably be affected on a psychological and behavioral level. It's not like people without reaction-enhancing cyberware are rarities. You are the aberration, not them. I also think that the comparison is bogus. Just think about how differently you would behave if you had to very consciously, carefully, and rigidly control every impulse, because you have a piece of cyberware that is designed to translate that impulse into action in order to cut out the speed bottleneck of analysis.
This is like the "world of quadraplegics" argument. I don't think that any premise with a domain of discourse like "a world where the vast majority of the population can't tell time" or "a world where very few people have the ability to move their body below the neck" is terribly sound when projected onto what is a modified version of our own world, i.e. Shadowrun. Likewise, telling time, that's not exactly going to affect you if you can't do it, since only one person can. That person can claim they're god, but if they're the only one who can tell time, they're going to be raving to deaf ears. Who cares if they can tell time, when no one else can? They're still the strange ones. Being able to cave in someone's chest with laced knuckles, lift 300 pounds over your head with synthetic muscles, watch a combat knife fail to penetrate your dermal sheath, see the body heat of your enemy, and then sneak up on him, your monofilament claws extended for the kill, while he thinks the darkness conceals him? That speaks to a more primal, more basic sort of change in your capabilities, a change that's likely to distance you from others who cannot do it. Look at soldiers and martial artists. I can usually pick up someone who knows how to take care of themselves(or thinks they do) based on their personality and social interactions. Now imagine that amplified by a large coefficient, because these abilities are literally impossible to achieve if you were unaugmented, like most everyone around you(excluding other shadowrunners; I'm talking pedestrians, mom and pop, brother the accountant, sister the gradeschool English teacher). Consider that your skin no longer is as soft, flexible, or human-looking. Your eyes are icy black orbs, reflecting no light. Under your skin, which is not your own, muscles made of something else, that feel cool, tire less quickly, and rub oddly on the titanium strands that encircle every bone and reinforce every joint. This will change your self-perception, and thus your sense of self, even if the cyberware in question is all high-grade and natural looking. If it's as I described earlier, your personality will be shaped by the fact that the 99% of the population that thinks pupilless kevlar-skinned muscleheads are strange and scary will probably not treat you with the warmth and acceptance that every social being needs to not develop mental problems.
I disagree. Let's look at you. You've got an "enhanced" grasp of the English language and some capacity for the art of the analogy(that you overuse and distort, I might add). You'd likely be pretty different if this weren't the case, psychologically and socially(if there is a difference). It doesn't necessarily mean you're an elitist. Having improved capabilities makes people behave differently, for good or ill. |
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Oct 26 2004, 04:09 PM
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#17
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Very well. If you prefer a more rational example, it's like saying that anyone who uses a monitor every day to do their computing, watch television, or anything else that you would use a monitor for would consider themselves a god compared to someone who chooses not to even own one, let alone use one. Ditto for someone with an image link believing they were a god over someone who uses a monitor. Hell, it's the same as arguing that someone with a Body, Quickness, and Strength of 9 and the Bonus Attribute, Toughness, and other similar edges loses all touch with reality compared to your average Joe with a Body, Quickness, and Strength of 3 and the Infirm flaw. He's well in excess of three times stronger, faster, and tougher than any mere mortal, afterall. Being able to do things that others can't is neither an excuse nor a worthwhile explanation for some jackass who loses touch with reality. He was unstable to begin with and would have lost it one way or the other; he'd just be using his implants to rationalize it. Technology is not evil. Technology doesn't turn you into a monster. Technology doesn't erode your morality. YOU may be those things in and of yourself, but it's not technology's fault anymore if and when cybernetics become mainstream than when computers did a decade ago or when the Industrial Revolution kicked in a hundred years ago. You might as well say that cyberware is what made Hitler into an evil monster with eroded morality.
Sorry, I'm not going to respond to -- let alone bother wasting my time reading anything written by -- someone who tells me I'm an idiot. |
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Oct 26 2004, 04:16 PM
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#18
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I really think you’re overestimating the scale of the changes in outlook I’m talking about. Hell, if someone being five feet tall vs. six feet tall would have the difference it does, your Strength/Bod 9 person would have much the same sort of outlook difference, as would the people with the ‘ware I referenced. Being amongst people with similar ‘ware will only accentuate that; coming from a fairly academic background, I lose touch with the fact that many people can’t recall and apply the equations of motion off the top of their head.
~J |
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Oct 26 2004, 04:17 PM
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#19
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That would go back to the "elitist" point I made earlier. That's not losing all touch with reality and becoming a monster, that's being an intellectual snob. There's a significant difference there.
EDIT: And, no, the difference between someone who naturally has a Body, Strength, and Quickness of 9 is the same as someone who gains it through technology. But, magically, if you do it with technology we're supposed to believe that you turn into a raving psychopath. It's total nonsense. |
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Oct 26 2004, 04:22 PM
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#20
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I never said it was losing touch with reality. I was claiming a loss of touch with the capabilities of an unmodified human.
Edit: I see the problem, we’re arguing completely different things. I never meant to claim that this would solely be an attribute of adding technology. ~J |
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Oct 26 2004, 04:26 PM
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#21
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Which, again, has nothing to do with your knowledge, education, or anything else. It has to deal with you being who you are.
If you're going to back up the concept of cyberpsychosis simply because they give someone the ability to do something others can't, you have to do the same for anyone who can do anything that someone else can't. If one turns you into a raving lunatic due to their superior abilities, they're *all* going to turn into raving lunatics due to their superior abilities. The source of those superior abilities has no bearing on their unstable personalties and/or insanities. |
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Oct 26 2004, 04:34 PM
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#22
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Which is a very good point, but it's a point that can lead the argument in two directions. I think its reasonable to assume that people with a large amount of super-human abilities could lose touch with their fellow man. When it's from cyberware, it's called cyberpsychosis. When it's from adept powers, it's probably got a different name, but I could certainly see adepts becoming the same way as they flip and blast their way through ranks of "mortals". Not to say either of these situations is guaranteed, or even common, but I would hardly be surprised by someone under these conditions flipping out, either. Maybe it's less common for adepts since they still have to train for their abilities, (admittedly not as much as most people) whereas a sam can walk into a shop and a little while later walk out with new cool abilities. Maybe that's more unbalancing so they tend to go nutty a bit more often, earning cyber a bad reputation? |
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Oct 26 2004, 04:37 PM
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#23
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
~J |
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Oct 26 2004, 04:39 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Hmm, cutting off pain feedback, destroying skin sensitivity across the body, being immune to stab wounds, many handguns and low speed auto accidents, capable of ripping a car apart with your barehands and running all day would lead to cetain level of social disassociation, neh?
Having amazing maths skills, ability to focus on 2 tasks simutaenuously, smelling delicious and capable of putting your ankles behind your head surely just leads to smugness and a lot of fun. Depends what cyberware is used - combat cyber, social cyber, or functional cyber. But as this SR any cyber that recreates a mundane meta-human ability shouldn't really be used in a pychosis comparison. |
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Oct 26 2004, 04:39 PM
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#25
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Yeah, I was trying to argue FOR your point, Kage. I'm agreeing with you, but I was trying to do it diplomatically.
Shhhhh, don't tell Doc Funk. :D |
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