Shouldn't Sorcery Default to Intelligence? Options

[Gilthanis]

I got to thinking the other day about the Sorcery skill. Yes it finally has more purpose in 3rd Edition, but shouldn't it be like ALL the other skills? It is one of the few skills next to Conjuring that you CAN NOT default to the attribute to use. I could have a full mage that say has other interests like maybe decking. Since he wouldn't spend the majority of his time on magic, most people would say lower the sorcery skill to reflect this. Then comes the question, what if he never gets training? Shouldn't he still be able to cast the magic only having the +4 to the target numbers? I would consider the Sorcery skill to be more of a fine tuning and understanding, not just you can't cast without it. The books even talk about people accidently summoning spirits or children playing with imaginary friends that end up being conjured spirits. Why can't the game mechanics represent this by giving you the option of defaulting?

P.S. If the book does allow this, please tell me where.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Unconciously controlled magic is a case of a person's will creating an effect just because it is what the person desires at the time. Still not intelligence, and much more extremely reduced in general usefulness than defaulting from clubs to strength in most cases. Actually knowing what you are doing, and being able to get a repeatable result requires investing enough time to count as a skill, even if just a 1 in the skill.

[Kanada Ten]

The problem is you have to create a whole list of new rules dealing with casting spells you haven't learned with a skill you don't have.

One could do this, but it would alter the nature of magicians because they would no longer have to learn spells to cast them. They would simply raise whatever stats that mechanically drive the new sorcery system and thus not be the karma vacuums and thus become more powerful than now.

Accidental magic is more of a story device to me than some cheap dice mechanic.

[Gilthanis]

Ok, then consider this. I have a skill of one allowing me to cast any spells. Can I default to Willpower instead for more dice. I have a 6 Willpower. That would be a more significant amount of dice depending on the spell when looking for number of successes.

[Herald of Verjig...]

No, but you can use spell pool which is partly based on intelligence.

Remember, sorcery is willpower linked, not intelligence linked. Spell pool uses that too.

[Kanada Ten]

[Gilthanis]

Hmmm.... Still of 1 + spell pool 1 (maximum dice from pools = skill) = 2 dice or Willpower 6 = 6 dice w/ +4 target numbers. When casting a spell that is more effective by the number of successes, Could I default to the attribute or is it prohibited?

[Fygg Nuuton]

if you have the skill you cannot default

all magic skills cannot be defaulted to the attribute

[Gilthanis]

[Da9iel]

Kanada Ten:
You are perhaps confusing learning a spell with designing a spell formula.

[Kanada Ten]

[Ol' Scratch]

[Gilthanis]

But everything is based off the Attribute itself. Just because I can shoot a gun doesn't mean I know how it physically operates inside. That is the idea of the Sorcery skill which is to have a deeper understanding and therefore making it "more" effective. Kinda like learning a gun skill, yet I don't need a gun skill to know how to point and shoot and I don't need a gun skill to understand how a gun works (a.k.a. pull the trigger). I agree this concept arrises the problem with how spells are learned, but the idea is that if I have learned the spell, I already have what it takes to know how to cast it. Couldn't I elect to take a higher target number in order to have more possible successes by defaulting just like EVERY other skill? (This question really is for Conjuring as well)

[Ol' Scratch]

Personally, I have no problem with allowing Sorcery to be defaulted to. You still have to have learned the spell just like anyone else, the only change is that you have no formal training in using all the secret tricks and tips to help you focus your will as effectively as a more formal magician would to help you cast your spell -- you're basically relying on raw, untamed emotion to make the formula work.

Considering all the penalties for defaulting to an Attribute (+4 to target numbers, maximum TN of 8, no Spell Pool, etc.) it's hardly game-breaking or even remotely game-bending. Same goes for Conjuring.

However, I wouldn't link either to Intelligence. As mentioned, that's used to learn the spell in the first place. If anything, I would switch Conjuring to Charisma since most of it has to deal with bargaining and cajoling the spirit into following your will. I'd then change the Drain Resistance for Conjuring back to Willpower due to the exhaustiveness of the action. Having the Drain Resistance being Charisma linked is the weird part of the whole thing...

[Kanada Ten]

[Ol' Scratch]

You can't cast any spell without knowing the spell formula regardless of whether you're trained in Sorcery or not. *That's* where the real knowledge of spellcasting is found, not the tricks in honing their casting which is what Sorcery represents.

[Kanada Ten]

[tjn]

[Ol' Scratch]

That's fair. But canonical material already suggests that you can conjure spirits and cast spells without having Conjuring or Sorcery -- read the fluff for discovering that you're a magician sometime. Children, upon reaching puberty, often materalize invisible friends or cast some kind of spell out of pure instinct. That's pretty much defaulting (but also lends credence to casting spells without the formula to boot which would actually be the overpowered part in my opinion).

[Kanada Ten]

[Ol' Scratch]

Oh, I disagree. It's definitely about intent, especially the description of defensive spellcasting. A little girl being tormented suddenly screaming "GO AWAY!" followed by a wave of telekinetic force knocking her tormentors back ten feet is not just your body going "yanno what, I think I'll wake up today."

Defaulting with Sorcery or Conjuring would be much the same thing, albeit following a formula. You're essentially relying on your raw emotion to get the job done rather than ritual and meditation, but you're still following all the steps in the process. You're also still going to completely SUCK --and suck hard -- compared to a more formally trained magician, but you can do it in a pinch.

And that's the entire point of defaulting.

EDIT: Here's an example. Compare two magicians, both are identical in all ways (Willpower 6, Spell Pool 6, Magic 6, Powerbolt 6) but one, named Formal Magician, has Sorcery 6 while the other doesn't. They're both targeting two different people who are also identical and have, say, Body 3. Formal Magician will be rolling up to 12 dice with a target number of 3 and will likely get six or more successes on his test. Untrained Newbie is rolling a whopping 6 dice against a TN of 7 and might get a single success and thus just barely hurt the guy.

[Gilthanis]

Here is another good point I made to Brazila by Instant Messenger. After discussion of it's possibilities, a full mage could dump all their sorcery dice and spell pool dice into spell defense. Suddenly, combat breaks out not giving the Mage time to reallocate. By taking a +4 target number, the mage could still cast spells without reallocating and using spell defense dice. Thus doubling your effectiveness as a spell defense/conjurer mage, because not only do you have all of your dice for defending, but you could still cast with virtual free dice.

Edit] Unless of course the GM gives the reallocation of dice as a freebie to prevent cheese.

[Kanada Ten]

We're going to have to agree to disagree then simply because I can't agree. One can default whenever they desire. One cannot accidently channel mana on command.

[Gilthanis]

[toturi]

If I was to allow Defaulting, I'll allow defaulting only to Magic Attribute. It doesn't matter how Intelligent or how strong Willed you are, if you simply aint got the mojo.

On the other hand if you are simply bursting at the seams with Magic, it will leak out unconsciously, even if you don't know about it.