Ain't so fast, are ya?, I need to convince players that speed... Options

[Greyfoxx]

Anyone help me make a cool, fun character that aint a speed freak, plz? Oh, and its restricted to cybersammies. I dont want to think that the faster guys are the only ones allowed to have fun in combat.

The thing is, some of my players started out as slow characters, but when they get into combat, the fast guys get to participate alot and the slow guys just sits there bored. GMing techniques on this one is also welcome. :) :)

[krishcane]

In combat, speed is it. For a lot of players, the whole game is in how many things they get done in combat. They're like, "Yeah, yeah, whatever...." as I describe things. They don't perk up until I say, "Roll initiative."

However, one thing you can do to balance out the high-init vs. slow-init characters is out the combat into motion. For example, if the combat takes place while running (for whatever reason) or driving/piloting or requires navigating a maze while fighting, then everyone's actions are dependent on the positioning. Since positioning takes place in its own time (ie. a high-init character doesn't necessarily run more meters in a combat round than a low-init character), everyone is back of equal footing. The high-init characters just have more time to reload, switch weapons, or give orders while they change positions and try to acquire a target.

This also works to prolong combat. Sometimes that good if everyone is your team has a skill of 8+ and has set up the lowest possible TNs for themselves. I got tired of 1-round combats, so I added a little smoke, a little fire, a little collapsing building, heaps of garbage.... and viola! The bad guys pull guerilla hit-and-run tactics on the SRs, and the combat drags on all night. :)

Of course, you have to know when to pull the plug too.

--K

[Sphynx]

My favorite CyberSammy type is Kat, played by none other than my own wife. Also, I don't think he falls under the CyberSammie category, but Skillz was one of the funnest to make purely because of number crunching.

Sphynx

[Cain]

There are several alternatives. To deal with this very problem, I have a house initiative system that works in reverse; slower people actually go first, and have the chance to resolve their actions. Faster people may elect to "sieze the initiative" from the slower ones, after the action is declared-- thus, they get a huge edge in being able to see what's happening and select their response.

Another alternative is to work on a troll cybersammie, with light to no reflex augs in favor of toughness and strength mods. You can end up with a truly ugly, if slower, combatant.

[phelious fogg]

I saw a troll once, named Daniel. He Always wore bright pink HammerPants ™ and everyone alwasy thought he looked wonderful in them. One day on a run (Still wearing the Bright Neon Pink As Seen From Orbit ™ HammerPants ™) He was shot by a sniper for 12D damage, his 21 Body and 7 Balistic Armor and the bullet goes *ping*. Now then, in normal everyday combat, Danial wasnt too smart, so he would just let people shoot him (getting mad when they put holes in his Pink Pants) and he would wade upto a 12+4d6 Street Sammy with his one initive and resist all of his shots, or just most. Then he would use his 6Unarmed skill to bash in the sammy, or he would use his favorite SMG at short range to put more holes in the sammy than the sammy would ever need.

All in all, he was very very effective.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Ok, well dude, that's the most extreme circumstance I've ever read! 21 body?!? Is that a typo or was he made out of solid "holycraponite"?

Sunday.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Now onto the actual topic.

Sadly, I think speed and combat efficiency are very very very closely related in SR, unless you have 21 body of course...

I don't know how effective a sam would be without speed. He'd have to be able to take extreme amounts of punishment in order to get his job done. Also, he wouldn't be performing his main function: Freak everybody out.

I'm a shaman, I have a whopping 5 + 1d6 initiative and I ALWAYS roll a 5 (no seriously 95% of the time, ask my GM) I would be dog meat in a fight without my partner. Oh sure, those 12 guys over there? Wait till I have an action... I'll knock the whole lot of them clean into unconsciousness! but what about the fact those 12 guys have guns and are ALL going to act before me?!?! Enter Nova. His job, make everyone stop worrying about the shaman and start worrying about the hail of bullets or grenades. Effect? Lots of combat pools being drained as people try to survive. Result? Lots less dice available to shred the shaman. The realization by the bad guys that the kid standing in the back is nowhere near the threat than this psycho with his wired reflexes and the two fisted hail of bullets.

The bad guys start firing at the sam instead of killing me. Anyone who does fire at me, well I'll dodge for cover and there's always cover, even if that cover happens to be Nova.

I don't need to be fast, but SOMEONE has to be, and not only that, but if one of you is going to be slow, the other doesn't have to just be fast, he has to be the fastest. All hail Alpha wired 3.

Sunday.

[Velocity]

[phelious fogg]

Lets see if I remember all teh Augs that were in place to get 21 body. I might be missing something, but here goes

Troll, Max starting body 12
Titanium Bone Lacing +2Body +1Imp +1Bal
Dermal Sheath 3 +4Body +2Imp
Pair of Cyberarms +1Body
Suprathyroid Gland +1Body

Well thats 20 Body, I know there was something else in there somewhere.
Oh yeah the Toughness Edge, whiche is 1 more body for resisting damage. Voila, 21 Body. Add armor to taste. Move really slow and never ever take any Damage.. well unless the mage fries you with manabolt. Of course thats why Danial Also had 6 willpower.

[snowRaven]

You could always try and design someone who is next to impossible to kill with firearms.

This would involve a Very High armor rating and a Very High Body:
Dermal Sheathing, Bone lacing, Cybertorso w/ballistic plating.
Suprathyroid Gland.
Formfitting fullsuit under Armor Vest w/Plates and a Lined Coat or Armor Jacket w/dikoting on the plates, and of course at least a Security Helmet (military is better). Maybe add gel packs.

Good measures to resist damage and heal:
Trauma Damper, Platelet Factory, Guardian Angel Biomonitor and Symbiotes (nano or bio)

Suitable Edges and Flaws:
Toughness, Will to Live, High Pain Tolerance 2 (that only keeps the trauma damper from working on the first two light wounds), Exceptional Quickness, Exceptional Body.

Suitable race:
Ork or Troll

High Quickness and Intelligence(to get a high combat pool and be able to carry all that armor):
Muscle Toner 4, Cerebral Booster 2.

Give him (or her?) a nice strength and high melee skill, and carry a powerful melee weapon - or give him or her a monowhip and a good skill. Give him or her a firearm that packs quite the punch and can be used for suppressive fire. Something belt fed is good. Or an Amtech grenadelauncher. Grenades are fun. Maybe just a good throwing weapons skill and numerous grenades of varying types.

Have it walk or run slowly and spray lethal fire at anything that moves and/or tries to attack. Then have it move up close and slice the runners into oblivion. Of course, smart runners will run, run away - run away to fight another day.

Of course, this puppy can be beaten by superior firepower. Or many people closing in on it in melee combat. But...give it two monowhips and ambidexterity. A cyberforearm with a heavy pistol in it (and an extra monowhip in a fingertip compartment - just for good measure).

Oh, does it have to be a non-munchie? If s, disregard everything I've said :grinbig:

[Sunday_Gamer]

[Curugul]

Sadly, as others have stated, Speed is pretty much King in SR Combat. One million in defensive cyberware can be pretty well hosed by 5k yen in APDS + an automatic weapon. The bottom line is, in shadowrun, offense is better than defense by a staggering amount. You ideally want just enough defense to survive ambush's and freak rolls, while putting the rest into offense/utility. I've played a troll like that, and there's a minor problem: People aren't dumb. If theres a 12 foot tall creature made mostly out of steel, and several people next to him (who probably are doing more offensive damage), guess who gets targeted?


Curugul

[phelious fogg]

When he carries a panther cannon and a grenade launcher, he does more damage than the rest of the team. Granted other people get shot at, but when you know you cant kill something, and you know its going to do more damage to you than you can do to all those little people around him. Its more of a time to run away from him. The way i see it is if security gaurds shoot at him and it goes ping, they run away scared. Sec Gaurds arent stupid they want to live.

I will agree that speed is better than defence, because not being able to act near the top of the inititive isnt good for a combat person. He did have boosted refexes to compensate a bit. The originial idea for the character was just trying something new, moving away from speed and seeing what happened. He did a good job of surviving firefights, and at least making people think twice about them. Also APDS ammo inst easy to come by. I dont know how people come by suff with avail 14 easily. I dont play in games where many poeple have Etiquette above 4 unless they are a face, and even then 6 dice doesnt get you a 14 all the time.

Anyways he as a concept character that worked well. The GM wasnt trying to kill the Runners, but was trying to make the Gaurds smarter. They ran away once they new the game was too dangerous. Anyways he got hit with a rocket because of his 3 signature. So he went squish

[lodestar]

Shadowrunners work best as a team if everyone does the job that they are meant to be doing. The speed issue usually only comes up when characters who aren't good at combat try to participate in it. Example: If you're the decker holding your fairlight excallibur under your arm when the corp goons show up, leave the supressive fire to your sammy buddy, don't try to help out with your predator. The whole point is if it becomes necessary to start flinging lead/swinging katanas/tossing powerballs, let the people who are good at it do it quickly and efficiently. I mean not everyone on the team has to be a combat monster. OTOH to keep non-coms from getting bored in combat, give them situations to showcase their skills too. Again as an example, the same decker's skills might be put to use in the firefight, opening a security door, diverting the arrival of more sec reinforcements, or just plain escaping with the paydata. As long as everyone has a part to play, they won't be bored. They might have to wait for their turn to come up when the guns start blazing, but usually if the guns come out the run has went from bad to worse.

[Sphynx]

Hey GreyFoxx, since your thread's gone everywhere but where you asked, maybe I can get it back on track with another character idea:

Johnny.

DataCompactor-4
CyberEyes w/ Elect Mag, Opticam, LowLight and Flare Comp (see and record anything)
CyberEars w/ Recorder, Dampener and Hearing Amplification (hear and record anything)
DataJack (Gotta load and get things from memory)
375MP Head Mem

All Alpha, that comes to a nice round 2.0 Essence and an invaluable asset for data collecting type runs. 1,625 MP compressed.

Take Photographic Memory and link it (background story) to the MP "leaking" into your brain. You can't forget anything you record.

Leaves you all sorts of Essence to either improve combat potency some, maybe spend it on being a Spy by getting Balance Augmentor, Retractable Climbing Claws, GPS/Orientation, Oxygen Tank, etc.

Sphynx

[AK404]

Of course, IMHO, when you've gotten into combat, something's gone horribly wrong.

On the other hand, just how difficult can it be to purchase a gas grenade loaded up with MAO?

[Zeel De Mort]

It's probably pretty easy to get gas grenades with MAO, but what use are they if half a dozen security guards have gone before you and each shot you many times? :)

Horribly wrong things happen to my characters ever day!

[BitBasher]

MAO is useless in theat sutuation since even "instant" drugs don't take effect at all until the next combat turn. Like when initiative is rolled IIRC. THey all still thoot you to dead and back then dead again :D

[Glyph]

*Edit** Oops, you wanted sammies only. Well, he would still work with just the skills, edges, and gear. You could give him dermal sheath: 3 and ceramic bone lacing to add +5 Body and 4 points of impact armor. **

Here's a concept:

Geist, male dwarven adept

Powers: Improved Edged Weapons: 6 and Stealth: 6, Traceless Walk, Quickdraw, and Blindfighting.

Skills: Stealth and Edged Weapons at 6, Pentjack Silat: 4 with close combat and close combat/edged. Other skills as appropriate.

Gear: Ruthenium cloak, FFBA with thermal dampening, two dikoted katars, and some smoke grenades.

Edges: the 6-point Ambidexterity Edge.



Intitiative is great, but what good does it do when you can't even see it coming?

[Greyfoxx]

It was my fault as GM why some of my players not inclined to use speed freak chars to do so otherwise. I made an NPC who was sooo fast that they all wanted to be like that. Now, a lot of them only play for the combat, and dont really participate in anything else that much. Even if i award best roleplayer, and all that, they wouldnt care, as long as when its combat time, they impress everyone else with their speed and stunts.

Now, i want to present them with a char, possibly an NPC, who isnt fast, but is still flashy, and cool in his/her own way. I like the ideas you presented (troll toughguy, johnny the scout/spotter/detector, stealth assassin dwarf adept), and id probably try them out. tnx :)

[Cain]

[Greyfoxx]

Greyfoxx's eyes glitters staring at new troll GM toy!

"Wwwooooooooooooooooowwwwww! Thanks Uncle Cain, you ROOCK!"

[KosherPickle]

[Greyfoxx]

13 coz the exceptional att only ALLOWS you to increase above the maxed out stat and not really give you a bonus stat, i think. :?

[Shockwave_IIc]

Nice, Subtel but not at the same time!!

As an alternative you could just play a normal/ slightly augmented NPC with good combat exp (ie, fights smart, very smart). The kind of character the ork at the back of the street sam catalogue SHOULD of been. Loads of minor, but clever augs.

Put your players in a area where they can't see much (thermal smoke, strobe lighting, uneven ground, loud noise) then have at them (your guy playing smart, will be using ultrasound) he won't be going often but just to see your guy they'll be spending simple actions (simple action needed to take a perception test to see something not ammidately obvoius), or you could hit them with MAO it's not that hard to come by.

Then after hitting your team your guy leaves. Though if you want something to make your players remember him by, go for a couple leave a couple of wound effects. I find players learn quicker if you leave scars instead of dead bodys.

[EDIT]
Just had a thought, a ghoul would fit into this quite well, he'd be using astral perception instead of ultrasound, his running speed would be top notch, and (this depending on your intrupation) give him some bioware to up his quickness so they'll have no chance of catching him. the only people that would see him without a perception check would mages assuming they are using it. And for the scare have 'em test for infection