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Greyfoxx
Anyone help me make a cool, fun character that aint a speed freak, plz? Oh, and its restricted to cybersammies. I dont want to think that the faster guys are the only ones allowed to have fun in combat.

The thing is, some of my players started out as slow characters, but when they get into combat, the fast guys get to participate alot and the slow guys just sits there bored. GMing techniques on this one is also welcome. smile.gif smile.gif
krishcane
In combat, speed is it. For a lot of players, the whole game is in how many things they get done in combat. They're like, "Yeah, yeah, whatever...." as I describe things. They don't perk up until I say, "Roll initiative."

However, one thing you can do to balance out the high-init vs. slow-init characters is out the combat into motion. For example, if the combat takes place while running (for whatever reason) or driving/piloting or requires navigating a maze while fighting, then everyone's actions are dependent on the positioning. Since positioning takes place in its own time (ie. a high-init character doesn't necessarily run more meters in a combat round than a low-init character), everyone is back of equal footing. The high-init characters just have more time to reload, switch weapons, or give orders while they change positions and try to acquire a target.

This also works to prolong combat. Sometimes that good if everyone is your team has a skill of 8+ and has set up the lowest possible TNs for themselves. I got tired of 1-round combats, so I added a little smoke, a little fire, a little collapsing building, heaps of garbage.... and viola! The bad guys pull guerilla hit-and-run tactics on the SRs, and the combat drags on all night. smile.gif

Of course, you have to know when to pull the plug too.

--K
Sphynx
My favorite CyberSammy type is Kat, played by none other than my own wife. Also, I don't think he falls under the CyberSammie category, but Skillz was one of the funnest to make purely because of number crunching.

Sphynx
Cain
There are several alternatives. To deal with this very problem, I have a house initiative system that works in reverse; slower people actually go first, and have the chance to resolve their actions. Faster people may elect to "sieze the initiative" from the slower ones, after the action is declared-- thus, they get a huge edge in being able to see what's happening and select their response.

Another alternative is to work on a troll cybersammie, with light to no reflex augs in favor of toughness and strength mods. You can end up with a truly ugly, if slower, combatant.
phelious fogg
I saw a troll once, named Daniel. He Always wore bright pink HammerPants ™ and everyone alwasy thought he looked wonderful in them. One day on a run (Still wearing the Bright Neon Pink As Seen From Orbit ™ HammerPants ™) He was shot by a sniper for 12D damage, his 21 Body and 7 Balistic Armor and the bullet goes *ping*. Now then, in normal everyday combat, Danial wasnt too smart, so he would just let people shoot him (getting mad when they put holes in his Pink Pants) and he would wade upto a 12+4d6 Street Sammy with his one initive and resist all of his shots, or just most. Then he would use his 6Unarmed skill to bash in the sammy, or he would use his favorite SMG at short range to put more holes in the sammy than the sammy would ever need.

All in all, he was very very effective.
Sunday_Gamer
Ok, well dude, that's the most extreme circumstance I've ever read! 21 body?!? Is that a typo or was he made out of solid "holycraponite"?

Sunday.
Sunday_Gamer
Now onto the actual topic.

Sadly, I think speed and combat efficiency are very very very closely related in SR, unless you have 21 body of course...

I don't know how effective a sam would be without speed. He'd have to be able to take extreme amounts of punishment in order to get his job done. Also, he wouldn't be performing his main function: Freak everybody out.

I'm a shaman, I have a whopping 5 + 1d6 initiative and I ALWAYS roll a 5 (no seriously 95% of the time, ask my GM) I would be dog meat in a fight without my partner. Oh sure, those 12 guys over there? Wait till I have an action... I'll knock the whole lot of them clean into unconsciousness! but what about the fact those 12 guys have guns and are ALL going to act before me?!?! Enter Nova. His job, make everyone stop worrying about the shaman and start worrying about the hail of bullets or grenades. Effect? Lots of combat pools being drained as people try to survive. Result? Lots less dice available to shred the shaman. The realization by the bad guys that the kid standing in the back is nowhere near the threat than this psycho with his wired reflexes and the two fisted hail of bullets.

The bad guys start firing at the sam instead of killing me. Anyone who does fire at me, well I'll dodge for cover and there's always cover, even if that cover happens to be Nova.

I don't need to be fast, but SOMEONE has to be, and not only that, but if one of you is going to be slow, the other doesn't have to just be fast, he has to be the fastest. All hail Alpha wired 3.

Sunday.
Velocity
QUOTE
Sunday_Gamer wrote:
I ALWAYS roll a 5 (no seriously 95% of the time, ask my GM)

It's true. Creepy, but true.
phelious fogg
Lets see if I remember all teh Augs that were in place to get 21 body. I might be missing something, but here goes

Troll, Max starting body 12
Titanium Bone Lacing +2Body +1Imp +1Bal
Dermal Sheath 3 +4Body +2Imp
Pair of Cyberarms +1Body
Suprathyroid Gland +1Body

Well thats 20 Body, I know there was something else in there somewhere.
Oh yeah the Toughness Edge, whiche is 1 more body for resisting damage. Voila, 21 Body. Add armor to taste. Move really slow and never ever take any Damage.. well unless the mage fries you with manabolt. Of course thats why Danial Also had 6 willpower.
snowRaven
You could always try and design someone who is next to impossible to kill with firearms.

This would involve a Very High armor rating and a Very High Body:
Dermal Sheathing, Bone lacing, Cybertorso w/ballistic plating.
Suprathyroid Gland.
Formfitting fullsuit under Armor Vest w/Plates and a Lined Coat or Armor Jacket w/dikoting on the plates, and of course at least a Security Helmet (military is better). Maybe add gel packs.

Good measures to resist damage and heal:
Trauma Damper, Platelet Factory, Guardian Angel Biomonitor and Symbiotes (nano or bio)

Suitable Edges and Flaws:
Toughness, Will to Live, High Pain Tolerance 2 (that only keeps the trauma damper from working on the first two light wounds), Exceptional Quickness, Exceptional Body.

Suitable race:
Ork or Troll

High Quickness and Intelligence(to get a high combat pool and be able to carry all that armor):
Muscle Toner 4, Cerebral Booster 2.

Give him (or her?) a nice strength and high melee skill, and carry a powerful melee weapon - or give him or her a monowhip and a good skill. Give him or her a firearm that packs quite the punch and can be used for suppressive fire. Something belt fed is good. Or an Amtech grenadelauncher. Grenades are fun. Maybe just a good throwing weapons skill and numerous grenades of varying types.

Have it walk or run slowly and spray lethal fire at anything that moves and/or tries to attack. Then have it move up close and slice the runners into oblivion. Of course, smart runners will run, run away - run away to fight another day.

Of course, this puppy can be beaten by superior firepower. Or many people closing in on it in melee combat. But...give it two monowhips and ambidexterity. A cyberforearm with a heavy pistol in it (and an extra monowhip in a fingertip compartment - just for good measure).

Oh, does it have to be a non-munchie? If s, disregard everything I've said grinbig.gif
Sunday_Gamer
QUOTE (phelious fogg @ Sep 3 2003, 07:31 PM)

Troll, Max starting body 12
Titanium Bone Lacing +2Body +1Imp +1Bal
Dermal Sheath 3 +4Body +2Imp
Pair of Cyberarms +1Body
Suprathyroid Gland +1Body



Well there ya go, he is made of Holycraponite!

Sunday.
Curugul
Sadly, as others have stated, Speed is pretty much King in SR Combat. One million in defensive cyberware can be pretty well hosed by 5k yen in APDS + an automatic weapon. The bottom line is, in shadowrun, offense is better than defense by a staggering amount. You ideally want just enough defense to survive ambush's and freak rolls, while putting the rest into offense/utility. I've played a troll like that, and there's a minor problem: People aren't dumb. If theres a 12 foot tall creature made mostly out of steel, and several people next to him (who probably are doing more offensive damage), guess who gets targeted?


Curugul
phelious fogg
When he carries a panther cannon and a grenade launcher, he does more damage than the rest of the team. Granted other people get shot at, but when you know you cant kill something, and you know its going to do more damage to you than you can do to all those little people around him. Its more of a time to run away from him. The way i see it is if security gaurds shoot at him and it goes ping, they run away scared. Sec Gaurds arent stupid they want to live.

I will agree that speed is better than defence, because not being able to act near the top of the inititive isnt good for a combat person. He did have boosted refexes to compensate a bit. The originial idea for the character was just trying something new, moving away from speed and seeing what happened. He did a good job of surviving firefights, and at least making people think twice about them. Also APDS ammo inst easy to come by. I dont know how people come by suff with avail 14 easily. I dont play in games where many poeple have Etiquette above 4 unless they are a face, and even then 6 dice doesnt get you a 14 all the time.

Anyways he as a concept character that worked well. The GM wasnt trying to kill the Runners, but was trying to make the Gaurds smarter. They ran away once they new the game was too dangerous. Anyways he got hit with a rocket because of his 3 signature. So he went squish
lodestar
Shadowrunners work best as a team if everyone does the job that they are meant to be doing. The speed issue usually only comes up when characters who aren't good at combat try to participate in it. Example: If you're the decker holding your fairlight excallibur under your arm when the corp goons show up, leave the supressive fire to your sammy buddy, don't try to help out with your predator. The whole point is if it becomes necessary to start flinging lead/swinging katanas/tossing powerballs, let the people who are good at it do it quickly and efficiently. I mean not everyone on the team has to be a combat monster. OTOH to keep non-coms from getting bored in combat, give them situations to showcase their skills too. Again as an example, the same decker's skills might be put to use in the firefight, opening a security door, diverting the arrival of more sec reinforcements, or just plain escaping with the paydata. As long as everyone has a part to play, they won't be bored. They might have to wait for their turn to come up when the guns start blazing, but usually if the guns come out the run has went from bad to worse.
Sphynx
Hey GreyFoxx, since your thread's gone everywhere but where you asked, maybe I can get it back on track with another character idea:

Johnny.

DataCompactor-4
CyberEyes w/ Elect Mag, Opticam, LowLight and Flare Comp (see and record anything)
CyberEars w/ Recorder, Dampener and Hearing Amplification (hear and record anything)
DataJack (Gotta load and get things from memory)
375MP Head Mem

All Alpha, that comes to a nice round 2.0 Essence and an invaluable asset for data collecting type runs. 1,625 MP compressed.

Take Photographic Memory and link it (background story) to the MP "leaking" into your brain. You can't forget anything you record.

Leaves you all sorts of Essence to either improve combat potency some, maybe spend it on being a Spy by getting Balance Augmentor, Retractable Climbing Claws, GPS/Orientation, Oxygen Tank, etc.

Sphynx
AK404
Of course, IMHO, when you've gotten into combat, something's gone horribly wrong.

On the other hand, just how difficult can it be to purchase a gas grenade loaded up with MAO?
Zeel De Mort
It's probably pretty easy to get gas grenades with MAO, but what use are they if half a dozen security guards have gone before you and each shot you many times? smile.gif

Horribly wrong things happen to my characters ever day!
BitBasher
MAO is useless in theat sutuation since even "instant" drugs don't take effect at all until the next combat turn. Like when initiative is rolled IIRC. THey all still thoot you to dead and back then dead again biggrin.gif
Glyph
*Edit** Oops, you wanted sammies only. Well, he would still work with just the skills, edges, and gear. You could give him dermal sheath: 3 and ceramic bone lacing to add +5 Body and 4 points of impact armor. **

Here's a concept:

Geist, male dwarven adept

Powers: Improved Edged Weapons: 6 and Stealth: 6, Traceless Walk, Quickdraw, and Blindfighting.

Skills: Stealth and Edged Weapons at 6, Pentjack Silat: 4 with close combat and close combat/edged. Other skills as appropriate.

Gear: Ruthenium cloak, FFBA with thermal dampening, two dikoted katars, and some smoke grenades.

Edges: the 6-point Ambidexterity Edge.



Intitiative is great, but what good does it do when you can't even see it coming?
Greyfoxx
It was my fault as GM why some of my players not inclined to use speed freak chars to do so otherwise. I made an NPC who was sooo fast that they all wanted to be like that. Now, a lot of them only play for the combat, and dont really participate in anything else that much. Even if i award best roleplayer, and all that, they wouldnt care, as long as when its combat time, they impress everyone else with their speed and stunts.

Now, i want to present them with a char, possibly an NPC, who isnt fast, but is still flashy, and cool in his/her own way. I like the ideas you presented (troll toughguy, johnny the scout/spotter/detector, stealth assassin dwarf adept), and id probably try them out. tnx smile.gif
Cain
QUOTE (phelious fogg @ Sep 3 2003, 12:31 PM)
Troll, Max starting body 12
Titanium Bone Lacing +2Body +1Imp +1Bal
Dermal Sheath 3 +4Body +2Imp
Pair of Cyberarms +1Body
Suprathyroid Gland +1Body

Bah. You can do much worse.

Maxed-out troll: 12
Exceptional Attribute: +1
Bonus Attribute point: +1
For a base body of 13.

And don't forget about the dermal armor:
Natural: +1
Toughness: +1
Dermal Deposits: +1

For a total of 16 damage resistance dice. And we haven't actually implanted anything yet.

You can also add genetech to this, increasing the starting Body limit by +1 and adding Calcitonin, effectively adding +1 Dermal Armor. That takes us to 18, and we *still* haven't actually implanted anything.

Now, we begin the implants. We'll go with Titanium bone lacing (used alpha to reduce the cost) and Suprathyroid, adding +3 body as well as adding armor and bonuses to other physical stats. We *could* add dermal sheathing, but since his Body was already at 21, I personally think it's going overboard. Instead, I suggest Orthoskin 3, to give our troll 2/3 armor at all times.

To top this all off, we'll give him a standard armor layout of an Armored Jacket and FFBA-3. His natural armor stacks fully, so he's going to have a street-standard armor layout of 9/6.

So, against bullets, he's not only got 9 points of armor to reduce damage, but he's got 21 dice to soak it with, assuming he spends no combat pool. Even without reflex augmentation, he's going to be one nasty combatant to deal with.
Greyfoxx
Greyfoxx's eyes glitters staring at new troll GM toy!

"Wwwooooooooooooooooowwwwww! Thanks Uncle Cain, you ROOCK!"
KosherPickle
QUOTE (Cain)
Maxed-out troll: 12
Exceptional Attribute: +1
Bonus Attribute point: +1
For a base body of 13.

So, this has always been a point of not knowing, for me.

You have the exceptional attribute point. That raises the Racial Modified Limit by 1. Does that not mean that you can buy that point as normal? If so, doesn't that then mean you can buy the Bonus Attribute Point beyond the new Limit? (This'd be 14 instead of 13.) Just wondering.
Greyfoxx
13 coz the exceptional att only ALLOWS you to increase above the maxed out stat and not really give you a bonus stat, i think. question.gif
Shockwave_IIc
Nice, Subtel but not at the same time!!

As an alternative you could just play a normal/ slightly augmented NPC with good combat exp (ie, fights smart, very smart). The kind of character the ork at the back of the street sam catalogue SHOULD of been. Loads of minor, but clever augs.

Put your players in a area where they can't see much (thermal smoke, strobe lighting, uneven ground, loud noise) then have at them (your guy playing smart, will be using ultrasound) he won't be going often but just to see your guy they'll be spending simple actions (simple action needed to take a perception test to see something not ammidately obvoius), or you could hit them with MAO it's not that hard to come by.

Then after hitting your team your guy leaves. Though if you want something to make your players remember him by, go for a couple leave a couple of wound effects. I find players learn quicker if you leave scars instead of dead bodys.

[EDIT]
Just had a thought, a ghoul would fit into this quite well, he'd be using astral perception instead of ultrasound, his running speed would be top notch, and (this depending on your intrupation) give him some bioware to up his quickness so they'll have no chance of catching him. the only people that would see him without a perception check would mages assuming they are using it. And for the scare have 'em test for infection
Curugul
QUOTE
So, this has always been a point of not knowing, for me.

You have the exceptional attribute point. That raises the Racial Modified Limit by 1. Does that not mean that you can buy that point as normal? If so, doesn't that then mean you can buy the Bonus Attribute Point beyond the new Limit? (This'd be 14 instead of 13.) Just wondering.


Correct, if convoluted.

Take Harold the Human Mage. Harold has 6 willpower. Harlod gets exceptional attribute willpower: This raises his Racial Modified Limit on willpower from 6 to 7. Since his Racial Modified Limit went up, his Attribute Maximum goes up accordingly like so: 7 * 1.5 = 10, round up to 11. So instead of 6 (9) the min maxed dirty mage Harold has 7 (10). Harold must still (oh what a downside) spend the 1 attribute point in character generation or later through karma to actually GO from 6 to 7 willpower. Harold, like most mages, is a power grubbing, no good, rotten low life. As such, he also adds Bonus Attribute point. Bonus attribute point CAN take stats beyond the Racial modified limit (7 for Harold). Bonus attribute *cannot* raise stats beyond the Attribute Maximum (11).

To simply: Exception attribute: 6 (9) becomes 7 (11) but you must spend the stat point/karma. Bonus attribute: Stat +1, unless Stat = attribute maximum (11) (nothing but cyberware to my knowledge goes about attribute maximum's).


Does this answer your question?

Curugul
Glyph
A lot of people seem to think that the Exceptional Attribute and Bonus Attribute Point Edges can stack. In other words, take a human, give him the Exceptional Attribute Edge, pay 14 build points to take 7 in that Attribute, then use the Bonus Attribute Edge to raise it to 8.

Unfortunately, the rules on pg. 55 of the main book clearly state "No Attribute can be given more than 6 points or less than 1." So even with the Exceptional Attribute Edge, the only way to actually spend more than 6 points is by the Bonus Attribute Point Edge (and the modifications for race, being an otaku or ghoul, or being an albino). That still lets a troll start out with a base 12 Body, though, which is effectively 13 with troll dermal armor.
DV8
QUOTE (krishcane)
In combat, speed is it.

No, in ranged combat, speed is it.
Sphynx
Actually Glyph, that's referring to points, in how many you can have. It doesn't prohibit especially since the Bonus Attribute Point description says it can be used to take the attribute above the racial modified limit.

Sphynx
Curugul
QUOTE
In combat, speed is it. 


QUOTE
No, in ranged combat, speed is it. 


Yes, because being slow and using melee as your primary form of combat is key to success. I've done it and seen it done. Its LAUGHABLE. You can have 12 stealth and use tactics, and it remains... LAUGHABLE. You're never even close to the effectiveness of a moderatly fast person with a pistol.

Please.


Curugul
Greyfoxx
Yeah, right.

range penalty shooting while in melee: +2

range TN against moving target: +2
melee movement mod: 0

range visibility mod (hvy smoke): +6
melee visibility mod (hvy smoke): +3

range smtlnk2 mod: -2
melee imp ability melee: +6dice to attack

range uses athletics to dodge: xtra dodge dice but +4 TN to attack. not a good idea.
melee uses athletics to dodge: xtra dodge dice and no penalties to attack.

i can think of alot more, but this would be enough. for now.

smile.gif Peace
Greyfoxx
oh, curugul, ever tried reuthenium (+12), thermal damp, and traceless tracks (+4), plus your stealth 12? That can make you pretty hard to detect.

Or and imp. invisible physmage with delay damage (silent). smile.gif

Anyway, curugul, i hope you realize that not because you cant make a kick ass melee fighter, who aint fast, its not a possibility. I kinda noticed in most of your arguments that just because you havent seen anyone done it, its not gonna work.

We play different games. Walking around with your fists is definitely safer than walking around carrying a holdout. Plus you dont get disarmed, you dont run out of ammo, you can kick ass with your bare minimum self.

Bottomline, if you havent seen all options possible, dont make an argument. You could at least say that its 'in your opinion that' but giving a remark as 'laughable' is very insulting.
The White Dwarf
Couple comments. If you cant go fast as a sam, dont sweat it. As others have said, do something different.

To than end you could become a tank. Id refer you to my other thread which had something very close to max starting damage resistance (it was like 26 dice or some such) but I doubt it would actually be playable. A number such as 20 is far more easily reachable and usable.

Alternatvily, what it seems youre worried about here is acting *first*. That means you dont need high Initiative, you need high Reaction and Perception. Why? Surprise rounds boys and girls.

Reread the surprise test rules, and set out to beat the baddies before than can do anything, regardless of how high their initiative rolls are. As long as you a) surprise them and b) win the test than c) they cant act against you. As in, youd be invicible.

Youll need high perception to be sure you can find them before they find you and set up the surprise round. Youd want to do things like start out with quickness and intelligence of 6, buy reaction enhancers 6, enchanced articulation, and probably take the perceptive edge. Ear and Eye mods for detection would be a good idea too. Use Stealth skill to move into position, and Small Unit Tactics for combat pool to make the surprise round as effective as possible.

If you can do an adept instead of a sam, you could also add in combat sense and traceless walk powers, and if you really wanted to go first use quickstrike.

edit: about armor modifications. Some examples above used incorrect values. The modification of a single mod on the armor cannot be more than its highest value, nor can the total be over the total armor value. Plus the mod cannot make the armor's availability too high. I saw full ffba with thermal damping 6 on it, which breaks all 3 of those rules if memory serves. Just fyi.
booklord
Cyber-sammies by definition are characters whose cyberware puts them at an advantage over the common-folk. When confronted with a normal grunt he should be able to take him out without much problem or risk. I'd say you could go with......

.....Melee combat junkie......
Adepts make so much better melee combat junkies than sams do. But I suppose that a character with some ungodly level skillwires, two finger compartment monowhips, a tactical computer, and some sensory enhancements to make it really work...... Oh did I mention the dikoted polearms in case your facing something with hardened armor?

.....A living tank......
The nastiest tank I can think of would be Cyber-skull, cyber arms, cyber legs, cyber torso combinations with cyber ears, eyes and an internal air-tank. Layer on as much hardened armor as possible and go to town. ( Note : character may be impossible to make as a starting character, but if you ever want to freak the players out with one nasty NPC )

The examples I gave above are extreme. I'm sure you could develop more reasonable, less munchkin samples of low initiative, high-powered cyber sammies.
Greyfoxx
Ok. That's too much from you guys, and i must say i am very grateful. smile.gif The problem occurs with the younger group, as every one wants to be flashy and all. They end up having the same high performance speed freaks with not much in depth character focus.

The lack of focus, i can change in time, but the diversity, well it helps having all sorts of characters in a team.
DigitalMage
QUOTE (Curugul)
QUOTE
In combat, speed is it. 


QUOTE
No, in ranged combat, speed is it. 


Yes, because being slow and using melee as your primary form of combat is key to success. I've done it and seen it done. Its LAUGHABLE. You can have 12 stealth and use tactics, and it remains... LAUGHABLE. You're never even close to the effectiveness of a moderatly fast person with a pistol.

Please.


Curugul

I took that clarification to mean that in Melee Combat - where all combatants are fighting hand to hand, that speed is not as important as you always get to counter attack.

E.g. Adam has 1 action but Blaze has 3, however Adam is a much better brawler than Blaze.
Blaze uses 1st action to attack Adam - Adam counters and injures Blaze
Adam uses his only action to attack Blaze - Blaze tries to counter but fails and is injured
Blaze uses 2nd Action to attack Adam - Adam counters and knocks Blaze unconscious
Blaze loses his 3rd Action as he is unconscious.

That is what I thought was being meant - in melee it is skill that is important, not speed.

However in Ranged Combat where you can't counter Speed is all important.

phelious fogg
Or Combat Pool is all important for dogde, I mean a mage with 9 combat pool isnt using it for much more than dodge anyways
Ed_209a
Counter attacks is something I have had a problem with in melee combat. It doesn't seem quite right.

Aside from the rules, speed _should_ make a big difference in melee, instead of just making you win or lose _faster_.

Someone proposed making a counterattack still count as an action, just moved from it's usual phase. So, if you have an init of 12, and you counter a punch from someone with an init of 25, they will end up with one uncontested attack after you try to counter their first two attacks.

One thing I was thinking of is allowing the defense roll in melee to only stop a punch, not counterattack. The init 12, melee 8 guy could keep the init 45, melee 4 from hurting him, but could not literally use the guy's speed against him.
Talia Invierno
Ah, there it is. I was wondering whether I had missed someone suggesting counterattacks before. There's even a specialised physad ability for it. *shrug* I happen to agree with that system of damage. It's entirely possible to do more damage on a counterattack than on a direct strike. Just ask any aikido practitioner.

Partly, the importance of speed depends on individual style of play. The difference between RE 5 + d6 and RE 7 + 3d6 is not a single number but a range: each is capable of as few as as one or two actions per combat turn, but the second also has a chance of three. With the revised SR3 initiative rules, one has as much chance of going first as the other in the all-important first phase, but after that?

Thinking about this thread, we ran through a thought experiment yesterday: an infiltrator/assassin physmage PC of mine, created under SR2 rules with every speed augmentation and loophole possible, against "Timmy", a former troll ganger (now shadowrunner) NPC created for the current game with RE 5 + 2d6 (one level boosted reflexes) and the usual (if low level) BD and muscle replacement mods. Oh, and a surprisingly high WL and CH (5 each - he focused on attributes, but as a former ganger he was light on skills). The thought experiment required taking him down one-on-one (but not necessarily toe-to-toe): the personalities of the PC/NPC were such that neither would have sought that confrontation, or, having run into it, would try to disengage rather than pursue.

Ick.

I had to immobilise him. (I'm sure he would have been thinking the same about me.) BD was high enough to shrug off nearly every hand-held weapon and basic spell I had. ST - well, if I got into melee, I was dead if I couldn't make the first monowhip weapon focus slash count ... and the stats suggested I wouldn't be able to do more than slightly wound him with it, if I was a bit lucky. His combat skills - at 6s - were certainly high enough to take me down, should I allow myself to be pinned down at all. Spells opposing BD bounced off, manipulation spells opposing WL almost never reached the threshold, traditional sidesteps such as Magic Fingers turned quickly into opposed ST/Force tests (although I did get off one or two point-blank shots). It came down to move and snipe (and creative use of fire extinguishers/firehoses and similar), and a sincere hope that I would have been able to implement the original plan and discover where he lived to lay an ambush there. (No More Neighbours works as much against as for, apparently.)

Relative speed meant nothing.
Fortune
QUOTE (Sphynx)
Actually Glyph, that's referring to points, in how many you can have. It doesn't prohibit especially since the Bonus Attribute Point description says it can be used to take the attribute above the racial modified limit.

Actually, it does specifically prohibit a character spending more than 6 Build Points (and less than 1) at chargen. The whole point of the Bonus Attribute Point Edge is to get around this very limitation.
Glyph
And if I wasn't clear, Sphynx - I wasn't saying you can't get an extra point with the Bonus Attribute Edge. I was saying you can't take the Exceptional Attribute Edge and then spend 7 points. To spend 7 points, one of them has to be from the Bonus Attribute Edge. In other words, you can't get 7 with just the Exceptional Attribute Edge, then add the Bonus Attribute Edge to make it 8. Even if you use both Edges, you can only have up to a 7.
Wish
Well, if Blaze is just that dumb, he deserves to be beaten to a pulp.

The proper sequence of events has Blaze attack, and be injured in the counter attack. Then Adam attacks, and Blaze realizes that he'd best just try to get out of the way, because clearly Adam is better than he is. So he doesn't try to counter attack, but instead manages to avoid injury. Now only lightly injured, Blaze whips out his Predator and pumps 6 rounds into Adam before Adam can move (4 this round and 2 when he beats him on init again next round). Adam hopes to whatever god he worships that DocWagon gets there before he bleeds out, and that Blaze doesn't decide to empty the clip into his unconcious body.
Curugul
QUOTE
Spells opposing BD bounced off, manipulation spells opposing WL almost never reached the threshold, traditional sidesteps such as Magic Fingers turned quickly into opposed ST/Force tests (although I did get off one or two point-blank shots). It came down to move and snipe (and creative use of fire extinguishers/firehoses and similar), and a sincere hope that I would have been able to implement the original plan and discover where he lived to lay an ambush there. (No More Neighbours works as much against as for, apparently.)


What use mana based combat spells?

Are you actually arguing speed doesn't matter because you can't kill a high willpower character with incredible body with.... body and threshold based spells?

Try that example again but give your speed character submachine gun 6 and EXEX rounds.


Curugul
Adarael
QUOTE
Try that example again but give your speed character submachine gun 6 and EXEX rounds.


Yep. Whatever high-ass armor they started with... after a buncha Extra Explosive rounds, they're not gonna have much of it left. Just tatters and blood.

Greyfoxx
Melee will really have a hard time dealing with a fast gun totting bad/good guy. The same would be the case, even if you consider in real life.

The thing that will allow you to defeat range is to take advantage of ranges weaknesses, which are the visual and movement modifiers, since melee doesnt suffer movement mods and half visual mods, cept full darkness. A smoke grenade or two always helps and the fact that you are getting closer to your target means that he, in turn has to move away(suffering a +4 movement, and a +2 to your movement, and a +6 to smoke), until you corner him on a wall or something. Then he gets really screwed.
The White Dwarf
Or, you could just surprise him. See my above post. The element of surprise is extremly useful when used correctly; just hope the baddies dont get the drop on you.
Talia Invierno
@ Curugul

I did. And a 10 D custom biopoison (physical damage). The only things we didn't bring into it were cannons, sniping rifles, Doom, and the kind of weaponry more commonly carried by drones. What was it that piece of shadowtalk said? something along the lines of "Great. Now I can flatten ammo against trolls faster than ever before"?

Never mind armour (he had the basic longcoat + layered): what is the standard BD of a troll street samurai who has even a minimum of 'ware enhancing it? The most effective thing I could use against him was anything targeting WL. That only resisted at a 5. Otherwise I was facing absolutely disgusting "shrugging off damage" rolls.

Edit:
@ The White Dwarf (although I think you were addressing the more general situation)

That's what the experiment - call it a training sim - ended up demonstrating. In trying to work my strengths against the troll's weaknesses (and he really didn't have many except perhaps diversity of skills, did relatively few things, did them well, knew what he was good at and stuck to it), an ambush situation would have worked best. The experiment didn't allow for this, not beyond the possibility of getting off the first attack.

The absolutely best way of taking that troll out (apart from throwing the resources of a full team simultaneously against him - not a factor in this one-on-one sim) would have been to attack a vehicle while he was driving it - low driving skill, not realistic to assume he could have avoided a crash - but sufficient nuyen dropped into that vehicle would make such an attack just as difficult to penetrate as any other. Certainly it would render the question of relative PC quickness moot.
The White Dwarf
Nods, I was. I didnt keep up with the exmaples of X vs Y because, as we all know, theres way to many factors for a test like that to really hold completley true across peoples different gaming styles.

The longer I play SR the more things I pick up on that are subtle ways of doing things. Surprise is sort of my current "sota" thing if you will, no longer must everything boil down to a "i have more nuyen of cyber" or "i have more grades of initiation" etc. Proper planning and tactics can go a long, long way to getting you through something that would normally be death.

Using ideas like that lets me make more interesting and versatile characters because they dont have to funnel a lot of crap towards being good or having a ton of dice at something. Average can be ok if you manipulate the situation to favor you.

/philosophy off
krishcane
Totally, man. That's the spirit of Shadowrun, imho, that distinguishes it. That's what keeps it interesting for years and years on end... and it's what I really love about low-end campaigns. Necessity is the mother of invention. And as they say in Russia, repetition is the mother of learning. Repetition is the mother of learning. Repetition is the mother of learning.

--K
DigitalMage
QUOTE (Wish)
Well, if Blaze is just that dumb, he deserves to be beaten to a pulp.

I wasn't trying to show a realistic fight, but more that in a melee fight - speed is not important, only skill.
QUOTE
The proper sequence of events has Blaze attack, and be injured in the counter attack.  Then Adam attacks, and Blaze realizes that he'd best just try to get out of the way, because clearly Adam is better than he is.  So he doesn't try to counter attack, but instead manages to avoid injury.  Now only lightly injured, Blaze whips out his Predator

At which point it becomes Ranegd Combat and speed does become a factor. Though bear in mind that unless Blaze moves away (possibly incurring a Interception attack) he suffers a +2 TN for ranged attacks while in melee.

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