Astral Melee & Sorcery, For Doc. Funk. Options

[Stumps]

SR3, Astral Combat Tests, p 174
"Use the melee combat rules (p 120) to make attacks. The character may attack using an armed combat skill if armed with a weapon focus, Unarmed Combat if not, or Sorcery in place of either skill."

"Anyone with Magic 1 can use the skill while fighting on the astral anyway. If anything, that should be split into a new skill and to this day I honestly don't know why it's covered by Sorcery."

This discussion will concentrate on the issue presented posing that Sorcery is, not only a little confusing of a choice, but also inconsistent with the rest of the rules when used as an Astral Melee substitute.

There are two questions, at least, that should be asked:

1) Should Sorcery even exist as an Astral Melee variant skill at all? Why/Why not?

2) Should Astral Melee have a seperate listing of the mundane melee skills?(perhaps like B/R skills) Why/Why not?

[RedmondLarry]

It seems strange to me to use Sorcery Skill for Astral Combat, but then I've never been in Astral Space.

[Jason Farlander]

I think of using sorcery for astral combat as being essentially the same sort of thing, conceptually, as a decker using computer skill to improvise an attack. You are applying your understanding of mana to weild it in its raw form against an opponent. You can't do anything fancy-shmancy, like produce physical effects or cause damage over an area or whathaveyou, but you can bring on the hurt to something astrally active.

[RedmondLarry]

I like that, Jason. That helps explain why an allocation of Sorcery dice to Astral Combat means that you have less ability (fewer dice) to manipulate mana for spellcasting. You're busy manipulating mana to thwack someone.

[Stumps]

Yes it would explain that.

So it makes good sense the way they have it by the conversation so far.

[Kagetenshi]

That idea breaks down somewhat when you realize that astral attacks don't cause drain (unless I'm badly misremembering).

~J

[Stumps]

I don't think I'm getting you clearly. Could you go into a little (not a pluthera of detail yet) more detail and explain where exactly not having any drain but using your Sorcery skill as Astral Melee attacks runs into a problem?

[Kagetenshi]

If you're creating an attack on-the-fly through manipulation of mana, it presumably should have drain much the same as every other direct manipulation of mana.

~J

[Stumps]

ouch. I think that might have been left out because it would murder the user, and because mundanes use their Combat Pool and suffer no drain and have no real way to actually suffer that drain either.

Making a drain on it would make magic users have a dis-advantage in an area where they should be excelling.

[GoldenAri]

Or it would make him actually use a combat skill to fight on the astral. Just because your incredibly good at mana manipulation doesn't mean your an excellent fighter. Thus you have 2 option. Invest in being really good at fighting, or fire hose them with mana. But like any other use of sorcery it should have a drain code, it doesn't have to be crippling but should make them think twice on it.

[Stumps]

under that logic, we'd have to make deckers take melee skills just to battle in the matrix. (well...you get the idea anyways)

Astral has nothing to do with your physical world abilitiy to fight.
A quadriplegic could be an awsome Astral Warrior.

[Stumps]

I do think that if an alternative is posed, it would be a category of Astral Unarmed combat and Focus (armed) Combat.

[GoldenAri]

We do. He takes combat program, which he must then execute using his computer skill.

There's nothing in what I said that stops a quadriplegics from being awesome warriors on the astral. All they need to do is project and study with their master while manifest, or even purely on the astral itself.

[Stumps]

[Stumps]

[Shockwave_IIc]

Howabout as a drain code for it. The amount of Sorcery dice used/2 M ?i was thinking stun but slinging spells on astral cause's physical......

[Stumps]

Drain is a bad idea.
Why? because it's not universally a penalty to ALL characters who can go Astral.

I would rather see Sorcery removed from the options and replaced with Astral Melee skills than introduce a Drain system for Astral Melee ONLY to mages and Adepts!

[Stumps]

ok...firstly.

I should correct the impression I'm giving with "mundane".
I'm reffering to Adepts. Sorry for the confusion.

This whole Sorcery thing really only applies to Adpets directly anyway because they are the ones who are specifically cited as being able to use Sorcery for only one reason. Astral Combat.
Adepts cannot receive Drain because they don't cast spells so the Drain idea doesn't really work without re-writing the Adepts.

[GoldenAri]

And who else other than mages uses sorcery for fighting on the astral? Spirits and dual-natured beasts all use unarmed combat. So a mage can do what everyone else does and learn to fight (be that through an Astral Melee skill or through unarmed combat or whatever) or he can try and ad-hoc use sorcery and hurt himself a little.

[Ol' Scratch]

Astral Combat (Willpower)

The Astral Combat skill allows a character to fight while astrally projecting. Only characters capable of using astral perception/projection or those who are dual-natured can learn this skill.

Default: Attribute, Sorcery.
Specializations: Physical attacks, Mental attacks.

Errata: Eliminate all references of the Sorcery skill being used for astral combat and replace them with the Astral Combat skill.

[Kagetenshi]

[Brazila]

I don't think drain is a good idea for astral combat, in most instances I shy away from anything that adds more rolls on every action taken. I have always thought that sorcery was an odd choice for astral combat. I understand the concept that a mage should be able to fight on the astral, even if they can't on the physical, but not via Sorcery. I mean shouldn't why is it linked to Sorcery? It seems silly that someone who only does conjuring but is often active on the astral would be less capable there. I don' t know if it should be a seperate skill, as I already think skill points often feel like they are spread a little thin. Maybe It shoulld just be based on magic rating? That way you could say astral pool can't be used, but the increase in Magic via each initiation would add to it. I would say that a Power focus would not add to Magic rating for this, but a weapon focus would. Probably needs to be thought out more, but that is just an idea. Plus, it would help curb cybered mages, since the lower essence score would make them less powerful on the astral.

[Erebus]

[Kagetenshi]

:proof:

It's not just spells, summoning causes drain too.

~J

[GoldenAri]

Actually I do like that fighting with your magic rating, or maybe essence. That would level the playing field. If fighting on the astral really has nothing to do with your physical combat abilities.

I'd even allow weapon and power foci to add to this, or maybe just augment your astral combat pool.