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Stumps
SR3, Astral Combat Tests, p 174
"Use the melee combat rules (p 120) to make attacks. The character may attack using an armed combat skill if armed with a weapon focus, Unarmed Combat if not, or Sorcery in place of either skill."

"Anyone with Magic 1 can use the skill while fighting on the astral anyway. If anything, that should be split into a new skill and to this day I honestly don't know why it's covered by Sorcery."

This discussion will concentrate on the issue presented posing that Sorcery is, not only a little confusing of a choice, but also inconsistent with the rest of the rules when used as an Astral Melee substitute.

There are two questions, at least, that should be asked:

1) Should Sorcery even exist as an Astral Melee variant skill at all? Why/Why not?

2) Should Astral Melee have a seperate listing of the mundane melee skills?(perhaps like B/R skills) Why/Why not?
RedmondLarry
It seems strange to me to use Sorcery Skill for Astral Combat, but then I've never been in Astral Space.
Jason Farlander
I think of using sorcery for astral combat as being essentially the same sort of thing, conceptually, as a decker using computer skill to improvise an attack. You are applying your understanding of mana to weild it in its raw form against an opponent. You can't do anything fancy-shmancy, like produce physical effects or cause damage over an area or whathaveyou, but you can bring on the hurt to something astrally active.

RedmondLarry
I like that, Jason. That helps explain why an allocation of Sorcery dice to Astral Combat means that you have less ability (fewer dice) to manipulate mana for spellcasting. You're busy manipulating mana to thwack someone.
Stumps
Yes it would explain that.

So it makes good sense the way they have it by the conversation so far.
Kagetenshi
That idea breaks down somewhat when you realize that astral attacks don't cause drain (unless I'm badly misremembering).

~J
Stumps
I don't think I'm getting you clearly. Could you go into a little (not a pluthera of detail yet) more detail and explain where exactly not having any drain but using your Sorcery skill as Astral Melee attacks runs into a problem?
Kagetenshi
If you're creating an attack on-the-fly through manipulation of mana, it presumably should have drain much the same as every other direct manipulation of mana.

~J
Stumps
ouch. I think that might have been left out because it would murder the user, and because mundanes use their Combat Pool and suffer no drain and have no real way to actually suffer that drain either.

Making a drain on it would make magic users have a dis-advantage in an area where they should be excelling.
GoldenAri
Or it would make him actually use a combat skill to fight on the astral. Just because your incredibly good at mana manipulation doesn't mean your an excellent fighter. Thus you have 2 option. Invest in being really good at fighting, or fire hose them with mana. But like any other use of sorcery it should have a drain code, it doesn't have to be crippling but should make them think twice on it.
Stumps
under that logic, we'd have to make deckers take melee skills just to battle in the matrix. (well...you get the idea anyways)

Astral has nothing to do with your physical world abilitiy to fight.
A quadriplegic could be an awsome Astral Warrior.

QUOTE
or fire hose them with mana

you can't cast spells in the Astral.
Stumps
I do think that if an alternative is posed, it would be a category of Astral Unarmed combat and Focus (armed) Combat.
GoldenAri
We do. He takes combat program, which he must then execute using his computer skill.

There's nothing in what I said that stops a quadriplegics from being awesome warriors on the astral. All they need to do is project and study with their master while manifest, or even purely on the astral itself.
Stumps
QUOTE
But like any other use of sorcery it should have a drain code

The problem is that
A) the sorcery skill here isn't being used to cast anything. It's actually just being used to tell you how many dice you get to roll for Melee Attacking.

B) Saying that magic users have a drain for Melee Attacking (if Sorcery were to be drained for melee attacks astrally), the mundane characters would surely win because the magic users would be taking extra damage from attacking while the mundanes wouldn't be taking any drain because they are using a Combat Pool instead of Sorcery and besides that, the mundanes have no way of being drained.
It offsets the balance.
Stumps
QUOTE (GoldenAri @ Oct 29 2004, 12:33 PM)
We do.  He takes combat program, which he must then execute using his computer skill.

There's nothing in what I said that stops a quadriplegics from being awesome warriors on the astral.  All they need to do is project and study with their master while manifest, or even purely on the astral itself.

That would be as I was suggesting:
a category of Astral Unarmed combat and Focus (armed) Combat

Otherwise, joe Mundane with an Unarmed of 6 would kick some serious ass in the Astral while not having any magical ability other than Astral Perception.
Shockwave_IIc
Howabout as a drain code for it. The amount of Sorcery dice used/2 M ?i was thinking stun but slinging spells on astral cause's physical......
Stumps
Drain is a bad idea.
Why? because it's not universally a penalty to ALL characters who can go Astral.

I would rather see Sorcery removed from the options and replaced with Astral Melee skills than introduce a Drain system for Astral Melee ONLY to mages and Adepts!
Stumps
ok...firstly.

I should correct the impression I'm giving with "mundane".
I'm reffering to Adepts. Sorry for the confusion.

This whole Sorcery thing really only applies to Adpets directly anyway because they are the ones who are specifically cited as being able to use Sorcery for only one reason. Astral Combat.
Adepts cannot receive Drain because they don't cast spells so the Drain idea doesn't really work without re-writing the Adepts.
GoldenAri
And who else other than mages uses sorcery for fighting on the astral? Spirits and dual-natured beasts all use unarmed combat. So a mage can do what everyone else does and learn to fight (be that through an Astral Melee skill or through unarmed combat or whatever) or he can try and ad-hoc use sorcery and hurt himself a little.
Ol' Scratch
Astral Combat (Willpower)

The Astral Combat skill allows a character to fight while astrally projecting. Only characters capable of using astral perception/projection or those who are dual-natured can learn this skill.

Default: Attribute, Sorcery.
Specializations: Physical attacks, Mental attacks.

Errata: Eliminate all references of the Sorcery skill being used for astral combat and replace them with the Astral Combat skill.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Stumps)
you can't cast spells in the Astral.

Er, yes, you most expressly can. The drain is all Physical, though.

~J
Brazila
I don't think drain is a good idea for astral combat, in most instances I shy away from anything that adds more rolls on every action taken. I have always thought that sorcery was an odd choice for astral combat. I understand the concept that a mage should be able to fight on the astral, even if they can't on the physical, but not via Sorcery. I mean shouldn't why is it linked to Sorcery? It seems silly that someone who only does conjuring but is often active on the astral would be less capable there. I don' t know if it should be a seperate skill, as I already think skill points often feel like they are spread a little thin. Maybe It shoulld just be based on magic rating? That way you could say astral pool can't be used, but the increase in Magic via each initiation would add to it. I would say that a Power focus would not add to Magic rating for this, but a weapon focus would. Probably needs to be thought out more, but that is just an idea. Plus, it would help curb cybered mages, since the lower essence score would make them less powerful on the astral.
Erebus
QUOTE (Stumps)

There are two questions, at least, that should be asked:

1) Should Sorcery even exist as an Astral Melee variant skill at all? Why/Why not?

2) Should Astral Melee have a seperate listing of the mundane melee skills?(perhaps like B/R skills) Why/Why not?

1. I think Sorcery is a perfect substitute. Sorcery is the ability to manipulate mana. Mana is the 'stuff' of the Astral. A person skilled in Sorcery doesn't need to rely upon his 'physical' abilities in order to be effective in astral space.

2. No. Dual natured beings ARE fighting with their physical skills. Their physical selves and their Astral selves overlap. Abilities of one translate directly to the abilities of the other.

As far as drain is concerned... Drain is used for manipulating mana into spells.. that is not what is happening with Astral Combat (unless they cast a spell). Astral Combat with Sorcery is much more subtle and far less demanding than actual spell-casting.

Kagetenshi
proof.gif

It's not just spells, summoning causes drain too.

~J
GoldenAri
Actually I do like that fighting with your magic rating, or maybe essence. That would level the playing field. If fighting on the astral really has nothing to do with your physical combat abilities.

I'd even allow weapon and power foci to add to this, or maybe just augment your astral combat pool.
LinaInverse
As some have pointed out, it's just flat out irrational to have Sorcery drain the users in Astral Combat. Basically doing this, the very people who should excel in this environment are penalized while mundanes are not.
Jason Farlander
Eh, I guess the drain thing just doesnt bother me much.

Pretend explanation I just made up: You aren't channeling magic through yourself, you're weilding ambient mana in a rudimentary way. Drain comes from channeling mana, as is evidenced by every other drain-causing use of magic. Those forms of magic require a finer degree of mana control, which is why you have to use your body as a conduit and suffer drain.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (LinaInverse)
As some have pointed out, it's just flat out irrational to have Sorcery drain the users in Astral Combat. Basically doing this, the very people who should excel in this environment are penalized while mundanes are not.

Why on earth should a visitor (projecting mage) excel at things on the Astral as compared to someone who spends their life there (dual-natured critter)?

~J
Erebus
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (LinaInverse @ Oct 29 2004, 11:17 AM)
As some have pointed out, it's just flat out irrational to have Sorcery drain the users in Astral Combat.  Basically doing this, the very people who should excel in this environment are penalized while mundanes are not.

Why on earth should a visitor (projecting mage) excel at things on the Astral as compared to someone who spends their life there (dual-natured critter)?

~J

Dual-Natured creatures are bound by both astral AND physical law.

Projecting Mages are only bound by astral law.
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 29 2004, 11:22 AM)
Why on earth should a visitor (projecting mage) excel at things on the Astral as compared to someone who spends their life there (dual-natured critter)?

~J

Because those things have never been trained how to use the ambient mana to their advantage. Thats like giving an ally spirit unarmed combat: 6 and then wondering why something that has lived on the physical plane for its entire life, but only has an unarmed combat skill of 3, can't fight it effectively. Afterall, the ally is an astral being that is only a visitor to the physical plane.
GoldenAri
QUOTE
Pretend explanation I just made up: You aren't channeling magic through yourself, you're weilding ambient mana in a rudimentary way. Drain comes from channeling mana, as is evidenced by every other drain-causing use of magic. Those forms of magic require a finer degree of mana control, which is why you have to use your body as a conduit and suffer drain.


I'll give you that this is probably what the writers were thinking when they decided to let mages use sorcery for fighting. By that rationale a mage shouldn't take drain while casting spells on the astral. Why draw it through you when you can craft it using the ambient mana?

(I'm not picking on you Jason, I know you haven't had a chance to think it through).

QUOTE

Dual-Natured creatures are bound by both astral AND physical law.


Thus a Astrally perceiving mage couldn't use Sorcery to combat an astral foe.
Erebus
QUOTE (GoldenAri)

QUOTE

Dual-Natured creatures are bound by both astral AND physical law.


Thus a Astrally perceiving mage couldn't use Sorcery to combat an astral foe.

Why not? He can cast spells on either. He can use sorcery on either.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
Because those things have never been trained how to use the ambient mana to their advantage.

Right. Training. Not because the character type "should" excel.

~J
GoldenAri
I'm not saying he can't cast spells at him. But just engaging him in basic astral combat while perceiving makes nosense. As you said, he's bound by both the physical and astral.
Erebus
QUOTE (GoldenAri @ Oct 29 2004, 11:43 AM)
I'm not saying he can't cast spells at him.  But just engaging him in basic astral combat while perceiving makes nosense.  As you said, he's bound by both the physical and astral.

Casting spells isn't melee combat though. Thats ranged combat.

I think I see where your coming from. In my mind using sorcery as astral melee doesn't have to involve any physical movement.

You can think of it as the mage changing his astral self to be caustic to the spirit thats attempting to melee him. The creature goes to strike but stops just short of damaging the mage due to the intense pain the mage's alterations cause. Or something similar.

The important part is the mage is using his *skill* at manipulating mana to counter or even initiate melee combat against another astral form.

He could just as easily pull out a weapon focus and go house as well, but mage's who have no physical combat skills should still be able to kick ass and take names against non-physical entities since its what they know.
GoldenAri
That sounds more like a metamagical effect, and I'd be fine if that's how it worked. But it seems odd to me that someone who is completely untrained in combat but really good at doing something unrelated to combat can beat the snot out of someone who is actually trained to fight, or a preditory animal in some cases. Also it leaves the conjuring adept out in the cold.

It's like saying I'm really good at underwater combat because I'm a great swimmer (<- analogy just popped in my head, but I'm going to try and run with it).
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (GoldenAri)
QUOTE
Pretend explanation I just made up: You aren't channeling magic through yourself, you're weilding ambient mana in a rudimentary way. Drain comes from channeling mana, as is evidenced by every other drain-causing use of magic. Those forms of magic require a finer degree of mana control, which is why you have to use your body as a conduit and suffer drain.


I'll give you that this is probably what the writers were thinking when they decided to let mages use sorcery for fighting. By that rationale a mage shouldn't take drain while casting spells on the astral. Why draw it through you when you can craft it using the ambient mana?

(I'm not picking on you Jason, I know you haven't had a chance to think it through).

I dont feel as if you are picking on me, so dont worry. I maintain that, for me, personally, it just doesnt matter... but this isnt a particularly good "disproof" of that explanation I made up, so I'll go ahead and address it anyway.

All spells have to be channeled through the casting mage's body - be it his physical body or his astral form. Why? Well, the obvious answer is "thats how theyre trained to do it." But, under the interpretation I proposed, the act of channeling it through their form is what allows the precise control required. Weilding ambient mana directly isnt something that can be done with finesse, even when you are astrally projecting. So even projecting mages still have to bring the magic through themselves in order to control it sufficiently to produce a spell effect. Thus, drain.
Erebus
QUOTE (GoldenAri @ Oct 29 2004, 11:56 AM)
That sounds more like a metamagical effect, and I'd be fine if that's how it worked.  But it seems odd to me that someone who is completely untrained in combat but really good at doing something unrelated to combat can beat the snot out of someone who is actually trained to fight, or a preditory animal in some cases.  Also it leaves the conjuring adept out in the cold.

It's like saying I'm really good at underwater combat because I'm a great swimmer (<- analogy just popped in my head, but I'm going to try and run with it).

The key though is that Astral combat really has no direct relation to physical combat.

Those who are dual natured are bound by their physical sides as well so they must fight physically to some extent even astrally. (Unless thay are trained to fight only astrally via sorcery.)

Its easier to visualize this if you look at the astral side of things first. Two mages both astrally projecting (one in tokyo, one in seattle) meet over midway to have a battle royal. Physicallity or even physical ability have absolutely nothing to do with how the fight will turn out. Its a battle of wills.


Now, if we take the winner of that battle and send him back to his body, and once he gets there he realizes he's been followed by the other mages ally spirit, now that he's merely percieving instead of projecting shouldn't mean he's any less capable of defending himself on the astral. (Initiative issues aside).
GoldenAri
If he was still astrally projecting then yes, I'd agree. Once he's back in his meat I've got more of a problem with this.

Though having a seperate Astral Combat skill or basing it off of magic rating still makes the most sense to me.

Would you say then that I could fight using my conjuring skill? After all that is a will linked use of mana. Hell, you could even look at it as an ham fisted application of banishing.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Erebus)
mage's who have no physical combat skills should still be able to kick ass and take names against non-physical entities since its what they know.

While mages with no astral combat skills should get their asses kicked since it's what they don't know.

OR

have to use Sorcery and take Drain, because it's what happens when they do anything similar.

~J
Erebus
QUOTE (GoldenAri)
Would you say then that I could fight using my conjuring skill? After all that is a will linked use of mana. Hell, you could even look at it as an ham fisted application of banishing.

----------------------------

While mages with no astral combat skills should get their asses kicked since it's what they don't know.

OR

have to use Sorcery and take Drain, because it's what happens when they do anything similar.


To be honest, as a GM, I could probably be talked into Conjuring instead of Sorcery in this case.


As far as drain.. yes for spells... no for astral melee. At least thats how it is for my games. They are different applications of the same skill. One requires drain, one doesn't.

Astral Melee is an application of the Sorcery (or possibly Conjuring) skill. Spells are another application. Dispelling is another. Some of those require drain checks, some don't.

Heck, I'd allow Astral Melee as a specialization of Sorcery too.


Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Physicallity or even physical ability have absolutely nothing to do with how the fight will turn out. Its a battle of wills.

Actually, they could use their Unarmed Combat skill (or Armed Combat with a Weapon Foci). Sorcery as melee is a bonus option, a way around requiring mages purchase a melee skill to combat Wards, Spirits, and other astral encounters.

I agree with Doctor Funk on this one. Astral Combat should be its own skill, and one that grants maneuvers to make it worth while (Close Combat, Focus Power, Evasion, Zoning, Fly By Attack).

Fly By Attack allows a projecting combatant to add Astral Combat Pool dice in a surprise test that they initiate.
kevyn668
I may be coming on late here but I don't like the idea of drain for astral combat. By the canon (AFAIK) there are no rules extended melee combat. In theory, as long as you were not rendered dead or unconcious, you could engage in melee combat until the cows come home. Or you succumbed to the efects of sleep deprevation. (Are there rules for that?)

I kinda like Doc's MA rules for astral combat but that's just one more skill that a mage would have to pump points (BPs or KPs) into.

edit: if ain't broke don't fix it. (even it don't make sense smile.gif)
Ol' Scratch
Only if he wants to excel at astral combat. You'll note that they can still default to Sorcery if absolutely necessary. The change just makes sure that a studious type isn't the Bruce Lee of the astral plane without specifically training to be, though they are more than capable of defending themselves.
kevyn668
I see your point. Unfortunately I suffer from a rare form of "Reverse Munchkism" wherein I crunch those numbers to get the best well rounded char I can. I have enough trouble scaring up points for unarmed combat, let alone astral combat.

That being said, I'm already thinking about an astral martial artist character...*starts crunching numbers* smile.gif
toturi
QUOTE (kevyn668)
I see your point. Unfortunately I suffer from a rare form of "Reverse Munchkism" wherein I crunch those numbers to get the best well rounded char I can. I have enough trouble scaring up points for unarmed combat, let alone astral combat.

That being said, I'm already thinking about an astral martial artist character...*starts crunching numbers* smile.gif

Ahhh, I was once infected with that bug too... Come to think of it, I am still infected biggrin.gif.

You are suffering from the Maximus Pointus Effecious strain of Munchkinitis.
Ol' Scratch
Again, you realize that you don't need Astral Combat if you have Unarmed Combat/Martial Arts, right? smile.gif It's basically just an option for weak magicians (which is why it's linked to Willpower instead of Strength). Adepts will usually find it useless compared to other options... especially those who can't project. And for mages, it's like Underwater Combat for mundanes; useful if you regularly engage in underwater combat, but you can live without it.
kevyn668
QUOTE
You are suffering from the Maximus Pointus Effecious strain of Munchkinitis.


Ahhhh, I see. That does make sense. Is there any cure? Or at least a treatment? (Other than the limited satisfaction of a spellslinging, sharpshooting, hard hitting human character made within the limits of the character creation rules w/o taking more than 4 points of edges/flaws?)

Am I doomed? biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Doctor Funkenstein
Posted on Oct 29 2004, 11:10 PM

 
Again, you realize that you don't need Astral Combat if you have Unarmed Combat/Martial Arts, right?  It's basically just an option for weak magicians (which is why it's linked to Willpower instead of Strength). Adepts will usually find it useless compared to other options... especially those who can't project. And for mages, it's like Underwater Combat for mundanes; useful if you regularly engage in underwater combat, but you can live without it.


Do-ugh! Yep. You're right. Got ahead of myself. Two months away from the 'Shock and I'm right back into my old habits of "Post first. Analyze later."

Sorry. smile.gif
Stumps
I like Doc's idea. I have since he mentioned it in the other Thread.
I'm glad to see this thread is going much smoother than the other one was.

It would be fun to actually make a character who was bent on kicking ass souly in the Astral Combat.
Could be some interesting things there.

Here's a question I have though.
It reads that Dual-Natured and the like can use their Combat Pool in the Astral.

Are we going to let the mage use their Magic Pool (or other optional pools? don't think spell would work here rationally, but maybe??) in the Astral.


Also...something else cocks my head as strange.
(was going to post it here, but realized it's too far off topic to post here.
instead, Astral Melee & Dual Natured Beings)
Kagetenshi
SR3 Page 44. There's an explicitly defined astral combat pool.

~J
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