Attunement, overpowered, or overdue? Options

[Moon-Hawk]

It seems like a really neat ability, and I like some of the things it can do. Especially with animals. I guess the only thing that bugs me is that it makes a non-physical adept melee character even more difficult than it already was. Of course an adept should be better at their specialty than their counterpart, but how much is too much?

[Synner]

I would just note that it is a metamagic and not a power. It is designed so it requires you spend a lot more karma and time than simply Initiating for a power point (both for Animals and Items), and it is limited to one "type" of item every time it's taken. Finally, it's also got a secondary limitation, "forcing" the character to have a relevant skill to make the familiarization test (when was the last time your combat adept had B/R Pistols, B/R Edged Weapons and B/R Bikes?).

BTW - Thanks for posting this, I've been wanting to get feedback on this for a while now.

[Moon-Hawk]

If anyone doesn't know that they shouldn't be voting on it.
But thank you for making that clear. I should've.

[Patrick Goodman]

Put me down for "About time". It says I already voted in this poll, but that's not actually true. Unless my clumsiness is getting worse than I originally believed....

[Critias]

For the one person (so far) who's already picked "overpowered," care to explain what you don't like about it? I mean, I guess it's an anonymous poll for a reason, or whatever, but I'm just curious what's so bad about it.

[banditf50]

Actually it was I who's vote was counted as "overpowered" but that was an accident. I clicked the dot by mistake and when I realized the mistake . . .there's no way to change your vote . . . opps on me.

To further discuss this though. If they had made attunement just an normal power, then I would've have declared it overpowered. As the mechanics stand now I think it's a colorful addition to SR.

[Ol' Scratch]

Attunement: Item is unbalanced in that it gives a significant advantage to adepts in melee combat where a -1 target number modifier is a huge benefit, but since adepts can already be unbalanced when it comes to melee it's a neglible point.

I voted the "meh" vote. I could take it or leave it.

[Moon-Hawk]

I didn't vote (it's my poll, I didn't want to "taint" it), but melee combat is the one area that worries me.
Doc Funk sums it up pretty well. It makes adepts too powerful in melee, but they already were, so does it matter?

Is there ANY way to make a good cyber-based melee character?

[BishopMcQ]

My take on the -1 for melee combat is that it isn't that drastic. A point of reach, even light stun would cancel the benefit. I see it as the same argument against Aptitude as an edge. People have told me that it is horribly overpowered, I just dont see it that way.

Sure I could play a troll, with a dikoted nodachi weapon focus, 6 points of improved combat ability, aptitude and then attune myself to the sword. Not only is it horribly expensive from a karma and BP cost, but what would be satisfying about this character.

15 dice TN2 and my opponent has TN7...it'd be fun for about five minutes or until I get shot in the back by a high-powered rifle and fall dead.

End--my vote was take it or leave it. I love the concept behind the power but don't see it as something that tilts the balance horribly in one direction or another...

[Dashifen]

Sure -- about the only things that Adepts get that cyber sams don't are improved combat ability, weapons foci, and attunment (now). Probably the best way to make a cybersam melee fighter is to max out reach and strength so that you can combat some of those extra dice the adept get by helping out your target numbers. Then, max out your strength so you have a good chance of actually doing damage when you do hit. Then, get all the pain resisting cyber/bio you can so even after you get hit you still have similar target numbers. Last, take advantage of reflex recorders and artwinkulation which some adepts may avoid due to magic loss. Last option, if your GM allows it, use a metallic based weapon in a shock hand so you can have an elemental shock effect when you hit them with your dikoted katana. Then you get that nice physical wound and the stun effects which should help you start taking some people down. Granted, the SOTA2064 power of Elemental Strike could allow adepts to have elemental effects in melee now, too, so perhaps the shock hand motif is no longer purely the domain of the cyber sam melee guy™.

Edit: I would also add that since awakened types are a significant minority in the sixth world that cyber sam melee types should be more common than adepts at least on the opposition's side. It could be the case that many melee adepts end up in the shadows, but if that's the case, where do all the other melee fighters end up? Probably in the employ of some sports league or a corp somewhere ....

[Nikoli]

Well, if your're going for a 100% melee focused cyber guy With what's available in a normal char-gen system (Max rating 6, Avail 8, 123~125 BP)
The Best I can see without edges Melee skill 5/spec 7
add articulationon top of that for a total dice throw of 6/8 before CP

Adept melee skill5/ spec 7, IA: melee skill 6 (3 power points), counterattack 6 (3 power points) 19 Dice if attacked first, 13 if initiating the attack without CP

the phys ad is designed to excel at hand to hand.

Sam's were designed to excel at ranged with firearms.

[BishopMcQ]

[Ol' Scratch]

[BishopMcQ]

Dr. Funk--My example showed the build that are talking about, but I don't see the entertainment in playing that type of chracter. My views on versatility are that it is generally easier for a non-awakened combat type to spread out their skills than it is for an awakened type who has to balance the karma costs of improving their magic with the karma drain of improving their own skills.

[Ol' Scratch]

My point was, I guess, that adepts are already broken when it comes to melee. Attunement doesn't change that even though it's broken in and of itself as far as melee goes. But trying to prove that it's not by munching out a mundane opponent as somehere have tried doesn't prove anything because they're munching out one side while just using Attunement on the other.

So it's all just a big "meh." It's broken when it comes to melee, but only in the hands of a character type that can already be broken in melee.

[Synner]

One note I'd like to make at this point, since the various cumulative modifiers are being brought up, is that SR still has a minimal Target Number of 2 built in. So there's a point where cumulative modifiers (with the possible exception of reach) become redundant in Melee combat given the base Target Number of 4 and the general lack of environmental modifiers that apply in typical melee (as compared to the variety that affect Firearms combat).

[BishopMcQ]

Synner--Exactly correct, by the time you get into a -5 modifier you are really just building a buffer against penalties like wounds or drug effects.

[Ol' Scratch]

Well, that and friends in melee, an opponent's reach (that he chooses to use to increase your TNs), etc. There's a fewer number of modifiers that apply in melee, yes, but there are still significant modifiers in play. A base TN of 4 is almost non-existant in play unless you're playing under a GM who doesn't bother applying any modifiers.

[Nikoli]

Ain't that the truth. I've only recently come to realise just how diffcult combat really is in SR. I cna realistically see almosy any modifier for viosion at one time or another.
In Seattle, it's almost always either Mist or Light Rain, theren there's the Partial Light, Glare from street lamps and the normal street debris that amounts to partial cover. that can rack up huge TN's for ranged and melee

[mfb]

glare from street lamps? that's one badass lamp.

[Nikoli]

Have you ever stood in a light rain, with slick streets throwing light up into your eyes in the middle of the night. Maybe my eyes are a little light sensitive, but I know I was feeling some glare.

[Fortune]

[Fortune]

[Synner]

BTW - Comments on Animal Attunement and Empower are also appreciated.

[Fortune]

Alright, comment on Animal Attunement (and Empower) ...

I think this Metamagic should be open to all Magical Traditions. There is no logical reason for it's Adept-only restriction, and it fits well with various totem and druidic concepts.

This also applies to Empower, although it might be limited to animals relative to the character at hand.