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Moon-Hawk
It seems like a really neat ability, and I like some of the things it can do. Especially with animals. I guess the only thing that bugs me is that it makes a non-physical adept melee character even more difficult than it already was. Of course an adept should be better at their specialty than their counterpart, but how much is too much?
Synner
I would just note that it is a metamagic and not a power. It is designed so it requires you spend a lot more karma and time than simply Initiating for a power point (both for Animals and Items), and it is limited to one "type" of item every time it's taken. Finally, it's also got a secondary limitation, "forcing" the character to have a relevant skill to make the familiarization test (when was the last time your combat adept had B/R Pistols, B/R Edged Weapons and B/R Bikes?).

BTW - Thanks for posting this, I've been wanting to get feedback on this for a while now.
Moon-Hawk
If anyone doesn't know that they shouldn't be voting on it.
But thank you for making that clear. I should've.
Patrick Goodman
Put me down for "About time". It says I already voted in this poll, but that's not actually true. Unless my clumsiness is getting worse than I originally believed....
Critias
For the one person (so far) who's already picked "overpowered," care to explain what you don't like about it? I mean, I guess it's an anonymous poll for a reason, or whatever, but I'm just curious what's so bad about it.
banditf50
Actually it was I who's vote was counted as "overpowered" but that was an accident. I clicked the dot by mistake and when I realized the mistake . . .there's no way to change your vote . . . opps on me.

To further discuss this though. If they had made attunement just an normal power, then I would've have declared it overpowered. As the mechanics stand now I think it's a colorful addition to SR.
Ol' Scratch
Attunement: Item is unbalanced in that it gives a significant advantage to adepts in melee combat where a -1 target number modifier is a huge benefit, but since adepts can already be unbalanced when it comes to melee it's a neglible point.

I voted the "meh" vote. I could take it or leave it.
Moon-Hawk
I didn't vote (it's my poll, I didn't want to "taint" it), but melee combat is the one area that worries me.
Doc Funk sums it up pretty well. It makes adepts too powerful in melee, but they already were, so does it matter?

Is there ANY way to make a good cyber-based melee character?
BishopMcQ
My take on the -1 for melee combat is that it isn't that drastic. A point of reach, even light stun would cancel the benefit. I see it as the same argument against Aptitude as an edge. People have told me that it is horribly overpowered, I just dont see it that way.

Sure I could play a troll, with a dikoted nodachi weapon focus, 6 points of improved combat ability, aptitude and then attune myself to the sword. Not only is it horribly expensive from a karma and BP cost, but what would be satisfying about this character.

15 dice TN2 and my opponent has TN7...it'd be fun for about five minutes or until I get shot in the back by a high-powered rifle and fall dead.

End--my vote was take it or leave it. I love the concept behind the power but don't see it as something that tilts the balance horribly in one direction or another...
Dashifen
Sure -- about the only things that Adepts get that cyber sams don't are improved combat ability, weapons foci, and attunment (now). Probably the best way to make a cybersam melee fighter is to max out reach and strength so that you can combat some of those extra dice the adept get by helping out your target numbers. Then, max out your strength so you have a good chance of actually doing damage when you do hit. Then, get all the pain resisting cyber/bio you can so even after you get hit you still have similar target numbers. Last, take advantage of reflex recorders and artwinkulation which some adepts may avoid due to magic loss. Last option, if your GM allows it, use a metallic based weapon in a shock hand so you can have an elemental shock effect when you hit them with your dikoted katana. Then you get that nice physical wound and the stun effects which should help you start taking some people down. Granted, the SOTA2064 power of Elemental Strike could allow adepts to have elemental effects in melee now, too, so perhaps the shock hand motif is no longer purely the domain of the cyber sam melee guy™.

Edit: I would also add that since awakened types are a significant minority in the sixth world that cyber sam melee types should be more common than adepts at least on the opposition's side. It could be the case that many melee adepts end up in the shadows, but if that's the case, where do all the other melee fighters end up? Probably in the employ of some sports league or a corp somewhere ....
Nikoli
Well, if your're going for a 100% melee focused cyber guy With what's available in a normal char-gen system (Max rating 6, Avail 8, 123~125 BP)
The Best I can see without edges Melee skill 5/spec 7
add articulationon top of that for a total dice throw of 6/8 before CP

Adept melee skill5/ spec 7, IA: melee skill 6 (3 power points), counterattack 6 (3 power points) 19 Dice if attacked first, 13 if initiating the attack without CP

the phys ad is designed to excel at hand to hand.

Sam's were designed to excel at ranged with firearms.

BishopMcQ
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Is there ANY way to make a good cyber-based melee character?

In my mind the benefit of the cyber-sam is their versatility. The 25 BPs it takes to be a phys-ad can easily translate into 5 different weapon skills at RT5. Sure the Phys-ad is great when he has his weapon, but the cyber-sam could pick up ljust about anything and kick his ass with her club or bar stool or chain etc. Her strength is the ability to adapt to a new situation without having to worry about what comes from sucking on a stim patch or two and depending on her contacts could be completely SOTA on the cyber angle with a good mix of bioware.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (McQuillan @ Nov 1 2004, 02:34 PM)
My take on the -1 for melee combat is that it isn't that drastic.  A point of reach, even light stun would cancel the benefit.  I see it as the same argument against Aptitude as an edge.  People have told me that it is horribly overpowered, I just dont see it that way.

Nothing stops a troll adept from attuning a reach weapon, too, you know. And it stacks just fine with Aptitude, thus giving them a -2 to TNs instead of only -1. That, alone, would make an adept virtually unstoppable in melee combat but couple it with Improved Ability and Ambidexterity/Off-Hand Weapon and there's nothing anyone can even remotely come close to doing to even have a slight chance to survive against an adept in melee combat.

And no, that doesn't make them a one-trick pony. Improved Ability: Melee Skill 6 is only 2.25 Power Points with a geas, and Attunement not only allows them to gain that -1 but it also gives them another Power Point on top of that. Aptitude and Ambidexterity are mundane edges, race is race, and anyone can obtain a reach weapon with ease. There's plenty of room for versatility on top of all that.

Being good at something is one thing, being unstoppable is something else entirely. 'Course I have the same view of riggers, but that's neither here nor there.
BishopMcQ
Dr. Funk--My example showed the build that are talking about, but I don't see the entertainment in playing that type of chracter. My views on versatility are that it is generally easier for a non-awakened combat type to spread out their skills than it is for an awakened type who has to balance the karma costs of improving their magic with the karma drain of improving their own skills.
Ol' Scratch
My point was, I guess, that adepts are already broken when it comes to melee. Attunement doesn't change that even though it's broken in and of itself as far as melee goes. But trying to prove that it's not by munching out a mundane opponent as somehere have tried doesn't prove anything because they're munching out one side while just using Attunement on the other.

So it's all just a big "meh." It's broken when it comes to melee, but only in the hands of a character type that can already be broken in melee.
Synner
One note I'd like to make at this point, since the various cumulative modifiers are being brought up, is that SR still has a minimal Target Number of 2 built in. So there's a point where cumulative modifiers (with the possible exception of reach) become redundant in Melee combat given the base Target Number of 4 and the general lack of environmental modifiers that apply in typical melee (as compared to the variety that affect Firearms combat).
BishopMcQ
Synner--Exactly correct, by the time you get into a -5 modifier you are really just building a buffer against penalties like wounds or drug effects.
Ol' Scratch
Well, that and friends in melee, an opponent's reach (that he chooses to use to increase your TNs), etc. There's a fewer number of modifiers that apply in melee, yes, but there are still significant modifiers in play. A base TN of 4 is almost non-existant in play unless you're playing under a GM who doesn't bother applying any modifiers.
Nikoli
Ain't that the truth. I've only recently come to realise just how diffcult combat really is in SR. I cna realistically see almosy any modifier for viosion at one time or another.
In Seattle, it's almost always either Mist or Light Rain, theren there's the Partial Light, Glare from street lamps and the normal street debris that amounts to partial cover. that can rack up huge TN's for ranged and melee
mfb
glare from street lamps? that's one badass lamp.
Nikoli
Have you ever stood in a light rain, with slick streets throwing light up into your eyes in the middle of the night. Maybe my eyes are a little light sensitive, but I know I was feeling some glare.
Fortune
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Is there ANY way to make a good cyber-based melee character?

Make a Cyber-Adept! nyahnyah.gif cyber.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Well, if your're going for a 100% melee focused cyber guy With what's available in a normal char-gen system (Max rating 6, Avail 8, 123~125 BP)
The Best I can see without edges Melee skill 5/spec 7
add articulationon top of that for a total dice throw of 6/8 before CP

Add Ambidexterity 6 and Dual Spurs and you'll really up your cyber-junkie's melee capabilities.

That being said, an Adept that gives up a point of Magic for this combo is *deadly*. cyber.gif
Synner
BTW - Comments on Animal Attunement and Empower are also appreciated.
Fortune
Alright, comment on Animal Attunement (and Empower) ...

I think this Metamagic should be open to all Magical Traditions. There is no logical reason for it's Adept-only restriction, and it fits well with various totem and druidic concepts.

This also applies to Empower, although it might be limited to animals relative to the character at hand.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Fortune)
That being said, an Adept that gives up a point of Magic for this combo is *deadly*. cyber.gif

Aye, 19 Dice before you factor Bio. Don't forget to stir well with M/Close Combat with a sprinkling of Dikote.

One of the reasons i Capped my latest character at 13 Dice at Cgen, Just a shame a Pair of Dikoted Delta Grade Spur Weapon Foci are so rare......
Fortune
Who needs Delta ... Beta will do, and you could Geas the Magic Loss to the Spurs. biggrin.gif
Shockwave_IIc
What makes you think i haven't already.....biggrin.gif
toturi
QUOTE (Synner)
BTW - Comments on Animal Attunement and Empower are also appreciated.

Well, I was overcome with munchkinitis last weekend and made a PC with Animal Attunement and Empowerment. PC was a Rat shamanic adept who bonded a Demon rat. Oops. Bad idea. First of all, I do not have Critters so I do not know what Animal Control does exactly, so I pulled the rules out of my ass. I decided to have Animal Control control up to Essence number of animals. The Demon rat summoned up Devil rats which in turn summoned up normal rats. And can you say swamp?
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Dashifen)
Last option, if your GM allows it, use a metallic based weapon in a shock hand so you can have an elemental shock effect when you hit them with your dikoted katana. Then you get that nice physical wound and the stun effects which should help you start taking some people down.

damn, I never thought of that...

can you flesh this out a bit more? what do the rolls look like? can you break it down for me?
DrJest
QUOTE
Add Ambidexterity 6 and Dual Spurs and you'll really up your cyber-junkie's melee capabilities.

That being said, an Adept that gives up a point of Magic for this combo is *deadly*. 


QUOTE
you could Geas the Magic Loss to the Spurs


I'll be honest, I've never used geasa with my phsyads, so

(a) Would geasing your Improved Melee to a particular weapon be the kind of thing intended?

and

(b) What do you mean by geasing magic loss to the spurs?
Fortune
I actually rarely, if ever use Geas for my characters either. I believe that you can Geas the Power itself (IA - Cyber-implant combat) to the Spurs via the Talisman Geas. The Power would the cost 25% less, but could only be used with the spurs (well duh ... it is cyber-implant weaponry anyway biggrin.gif).
Moon-Hawk
Probably a good use for the talisman geas, but it could still be problematic for upgrades. A talisman used for a geas has to have at least three conditions. Assuming you've got a relatively standard style it's pretty easy to come up with some of them: 1)single long spurs or triple short spurs 2)mounted in the forearm, and 3)something else, maybe something etched along the blades or something like that.

Here's an interesting point:
A spur does (str)M damage, whether it's a single long spur or a set of three smaller blades on the hand, right? (see SR3 pg 301) One of my players, a long time ago, with a serious wolverine hard-on, wanted to get three long spurs mounted. I toyed with the idea of letting him have it, for triple the essence cost, and then figuring damage like a "three round burst" He was pretty deadly, but he paid 1.8 essence for the pair, so it seemed fair.
Thoughts?
Botch
IMHO, bad call. 3 short blades because they're in the hand or 1 long blade because its in the forearm. Its a question of size limitation and style. Personally I would have only said yer if they were telescoping and suffer increased stress from combat useage and a L wound every time they were deployed if the PC wanted any additional reach or damage modifiers for 3 long spurs.

I've never worked how Wolverine's claws actually manage to contract back into his hand.
Moon-Hawk
Yeah, it was pretty uber, but that's a lot of essence, as well. It really didn't seem too unbalancing.

Oh, and I always assumed that Wolverine's wrists had to be straight for his claws to come out, but other than that I can suspend my disbelief.
Edward
Aptitude recommends it not be taken for combat or magical skills. You all seem to be assuming you can take it. Is it usually allowed by GMs.

Also you may as well ignore it for the purpose of this discussion as it is equally available to sams and phisads.

To me it is not that big a deal. Reach already did this and a metamagic, some karma and a requirement of another skill seems a reasonable price to pay.

As to the cyber melee character, dual dicoat cyber blades specialised cyber implant combat, enhanced articulation muscle augmentation and your choice of reflex and body augmentations. 2 weapon fighting is available as it would be for a phizad.

Edward
Kremlin KOA
uh edward if they use the twinned blade rules from SR3 BBB, that can be upward of 24M for a dwarf
Edward
Just how are you going to get a strength of 16 on a dwarf as a stating character. I am seeing strength 14 if I use every twink I know (max dwarf str 8 +2 edges give you 10 + muscle augmentation 4 = 14) that gives you 21M and dicoat for 22S when using 2 cpurs and BBB rulings.

Edward
Kanada Ten
Just as a note to self: Dragons using attunement on metahumans and drakes. Empower animal and infusion, too.
Synner
Normally it wouldn't work on sentients, but who knows with Dragons...
Just Jonny
Heh, a dragon attuned human would be hilarious. The PCs have just secretly entered the corporate compound, when all of a sudden the NPC decker gets a glazed over look in his eyes, says "I must go." then gets the hell out of there.
Kanada Ten
Wait a tick.. doesn't Attunement work an awful lot like the Horror Mark power...
Synner
It took 2 pages... sheesh. wink.gif
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