 Thor Shots, What are they? |
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 Nov 2 2004, 08:07 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537  |
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Nov 2 2004, 08:28 PM
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#27
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Excuse me? I think you mean Heinlein, not Pournelle. ~J |
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Nov 2 2004, 08:34 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 402 Joined: 23-April 03 From: London, UK Member No.: 4,491 |
Not going to argue with that! :D
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Nov 3 2004, 02:58 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Nope, the article is on Pournelles website and he is behind Thor. Heinlein used Rocks from a lunar catapult. Besides, I strongly dislike Heinlein and the attitude/world view in his novels. "Starship-Troopers" ended in the fire and "Number of the beast" or "Lazarus Long" in the "Donation bin" of the local library. Birdy |
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Nov 3 2004, 03:14 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
Thread drift.
I never did finish reading Number of the Beast. I got fed up and quit when the dimension hoppers ended up in Oz (I wish I meant Australia) and met Glenda the Good Witch. I hear that Heinlien was under heavy medication at the time. It shows. Anyway, as for Thor shots, whatever the method, put them on the top of my list for 'Things I don't want to be standing under." |
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Nov 3 2004, 03:19 PM
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#31
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Listed just above 'Lofwyr taking a dump'. ;)
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Nov 3 2004, 03:38 PM
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#32
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I realize that, but I was and still am disputing your labeling of Pournelle as "the master". ~J |
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Nov 3 2004, 04:38 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Ah come on, Heinleins Soldiers are Wimps. Anyone can fight in a tin can. Now the 42nd and the Legion, those are Real Man ™! And don't forget Saurons! You got to hate them. Granted, the "Starship Troopers" movie was nice. Whould have been better with Denise Richards taking a shower but still... Birdy |
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Nov 3 2004, 07:24 PM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm not sure 'nice' is the word i'd use to describe the movie. 'fun', okay, 'campy, but in a good way', sure. not 'nice', though, and certainly not 'a viable adaption of heinlein's novel'.
roughneck chronicles, on the other hand... |
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Nov 3 2004, 08:04 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 120 Joined: 13-July 02 From: Waltham, MA Member No.: 2,969 |
Thor Shots first appeared - if I am not mistaken - in FASA's Renegade Legion series of minitaures games. It's a good name, but I like the slang thrown around in the military these days: "Rod from God" Big tungsten rod, dropped from orbit.
A couple of issues: 1. Flight time. Presumably these are coming from Low Earth Orbit, but your flight time is still going to be several minutes from the fire request. At pure free-fall from 300 kilometers out, it's around 250 seconds. Geo-synch is even worse, at 45 minutes. You can assume an initial booster stage as well, but it probably wouldn't be that big because the whole point is mass, and burning propellent drops your mass. 2. Guidance. At impact from LEo, you are going to be going around 2 km/sec. This is really fast. Bullet fast. Steering is going to be awfully tricky. Hitting a widely moving target is possible, but the expense of such a system hardly justifies bothering. GEO is of course a lot worse (25+ km/sec). In combination, the expense of adding a guidance system and flight time means that thor shots are not practical against moving targets, but awfully effective against fixed implacements (and maybe naval vessels). As for the damage of the impact, it's kind of hard to say. You have an awful lot of kinetic energy impacting a small area. An educated guess: On contact with anything more substantial than air, the rod shatters into numerous high-velocity shards with some plasma thrown into the mix. All of this will still be moving down at an obscene speed - the damage pattern would be that of a slowly expanding cone. Upon impacting bedrock, the fragments would further atomize, and the plasma wave would reflect, losing a massive amount of energy, but still pretty impressive. This would geyser back up the descent path, carrying a bunch of (atomized) rock with it. The end result is much like any other crater, but much narrower and deeper. The practical result of all this is that a Thor shot is really good against buildings (skyscrapers are screwed a la Independence Day), and underground facilities. No amount of armor is going to help you, and you are going to be really deep underground to be safe. Interceptors are of no help, as even if you manage to hit it in flight, you are still left with a bunch of hypersonic fragments moving roughly where they were going before you it. Laser interceptors simply wouldn't be able to put enough energy into the rod to atomize it fast enough. There are some other problems with such a system: tracking the rod's origin is easy, so any launcher is not going to last long once it has fired. And the rod is in no way stealthy - everybody is going to know who fired it at what. Not well suited to quiet corporate shadow wars. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter. Had this come up in a game once, and had to do a fair amount of thinking about it. - Runner Smurf |
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Nov 3 2004, 08:06 PM
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#36
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I Hand of God!
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Nov 3 2004, 08:16 PM
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#37
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the thor shots are not, i believe, in geosynchronous orbit. unless i'm mistaken, they're actually in an orbit counter to the earth's rotation, meaning (unless there's something about re-entry i'm unaware of) they'd add the speed of the earth's rotation to their imact energy.
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Nov 3 2004, 08:55 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
Also, I don't think Thor munitions were ever really supposed to be used singly. I always had the impression that they were supposed to be used in disposable 1-shot 'packs'.
So you call for a strike, and a minute later, the target area is pummeled by a flock of these things. Metal rain, in effect. Not exactly a precision munition. |
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Nov 3 2004, 09:03 PM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
unless i misremember, the instances in SR when thor shots have been used, it's been a single, precise hit.
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Nov 3 2004, 09:12 PM
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#40
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
You get a more precise hit if you Call the Thor Shot, or Aim First and then Call it.
You get more damage if you dikote the shot. And though it's called a "Shot", it does not have a "spread" like normal Shot Ammo, unless the rock fragments due to heat upon reentry. If so, treat it as having a Choke of 10. For every 10m of fall, from 10,000 meters on down, the area of affect becomes 1 meter wider and the power drops by one. Even with a reduction in power of 1000, and counting impact (actually only 'heavy impact' armor should apply to a Thor Shot, but it has not been corrected by ShadowFaq yet) characters still need to resist damage with a base power of 2. If the rock fragments at 10,000 meters, then the TN for the shot is at -1000. Karma pool can be used, as normal, by the person who pushes the button. People that are hit get one additional die for their body roll for each person between them and the point of fragmentation. Dodge target numbers are increased by +1 due to the area affect of the fragmented shot. No penalty to the dodge number if the Thor Shot does not fragment, unless a burst or Full-Auto Thor shots are done. For each 3 shots in the Thor Burst or Full-Auto Burst, the target has a +1 penalty to his/her Dodge Test. Wound modifiers do apply to the Dodge Test. If the target gets more successes on the Dodge Test than the guy who pushes the button, the result is a clean miss. ;) |
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Nov 3 2004, 09:15 PM
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#41
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Don't forget Range Finders.
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Nov 3 2004, 09:16 PM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
If you Attune the Thor Weapon platform, can you get a -1TN to hit with it?.
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Nov 3 2004, 09:23 PM
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#43
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
stop. just stop, for the sake of the children.
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Nov 3 2004, 09:31 PM
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#44
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Orbital bombardment weapons referred to as "Thor" were used in the 1985 Niven/Pournelle novel Footfall, which was inspired by (I think) SDI. Renegade Legion post-dated both of those.
You think it'll lose 6km/s going from LEO (7.8km/s) to the ground?
I'll disagree there. Guidance for hypervelocity projectiles exists now in the 1-2km/s range. For example, the new Starstreak missile travels at about 1.2km/s and delivers 3 guided penetrators to a target. The LOSAT missile is another guided hypervelocity missile moving at about 1.5km/s. Further, in clear space, anti-missile interceptors deal with interception velocities of over 10km/s. They aren't dealing with it well yet, but the US is pumping enough money into the effort that at least some guidance at those speeds is probably going to result. Of course, trying to see anything through a 7.8km/s re-entry plasma cocoon would be kind of a challenge. I figure inertial guidance would be the name of the game for Thor shots.
I don't think it'll shatter. At impact velocities of 5km/s and higher, the impactor is moving faster than the speed of sound in most solid materials. Cracks won't have time to propagate through the penetrator before the impact is complete. Consider that the real life simulation methods for kinetic penetrators use hydrodynamic codes: the material is treated as a flowing liquid. (Which is one reason for the interest in DU, which self-sharpens in those hypervelocity impact regimes.) Yep, here's some: http://www.llnl.gov/planetary/pdfs/Experim...05-Tedeschi.pdf "The response of such materials to hypervelocity impact spans a wide range of material behavior, ranging from high impact temperatures and pressures, where hydrodynamic motion and thermodynamic effects predominate, to the low pressure regions where the mechanical properties dominate the process." At 2-25km/s, you're going to see "hydrodynamic motion and thermodynamic effects predominate."
Yep. Nice graphic.
They could, however, deflect it by ablation and/or kill its guidance. Of course, if you have a cluster of Thor shots coming down, that laser either better be rapid fire, or you should have a fast getaway car. :) And now I want to go build an Aerotech-2 warship with naval gauss rifles. Drop some 25km/s tungsten lovin' on deserving targets.... |
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Nov 3 2004, 09:39 PM
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#45
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
You could Anchor Enhance Aim on it before sending it up into Space. That way, when it hits the Manasphere, the spell will kick in and fine tune the aim. :D
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Nov 3 2004, 09:46 PM
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#46
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Problem Fortune:
Interpretation of the way the spell works aside, Anchoring foci are always active, even when they have yet to be triggered. Unless we're dealing with a force 15 focus, I doubt it would survive being active in a mana warp. |
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Nov 3 2004, 09:51 PM
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#47
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Force 15 doesn't seem too much of a stretch for either Ares or SK. ;)
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Nov 3 2004, 10:11 PM
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#48
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
And by the way, it was mentioned in one of the books (May have been House of the Sun) That the Thor was a rod of depleted uranium that was in orbit counterrotating against the earth's orbit. This served several advantages, primarily that a thor could be brought on target much faster while counterrotating as it crosses the whole of the drop zone significantly more often that one not, and it should around double the deliverable kinetic energy.
So, Cray, what kind of energy delivery would we look at at a re-entering tungsten or depleted uranium penetrator from a counterrotating trajectory? would it look cool at night? :D How long would the penetrator be visible before impact? |
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Nov 3 2004, 10:26 PM
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#49
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Hmm. LEO velocity is 7800m/s, ignoring Earth's motion. Earth's equator is moving at 1600kph, or about 450m/s. If the Thor shot is moving over Earth's equator, directly over it, in the same direction as the equator, the Thor shot will effectively have that 450m/s subtracted from its velocity (effectively 7350m/s) Moving directly against Earth's spin, it will be effectively moving at 8250m/s. Relatively speaking, a Thor shot moving with the Earth will deliver [(7350/8250)^2] = 80% as much energy as a counter-orbiting Thor shot. Rephrased, the counter-rotating Thor shot will deliver 26% more energy. What will it look like and when will you see it... Well, you'll see it sooner at night than during the day. At night, you might see it several hundred kilometers off (it won't be following a straight-down route, most likely) and you'll have a couple of minutes before it hits. During the day, it'll be much closer, perhaps tens of seconds away (at a wild assed guess.) Incidentally, my preferred orbit would be a polar orbit, which would let a Thor shot pass over every inch of the Earth (eventually). This opens the widest range for its use, though there'll be more delays before it passes over a given target (hence necessitating a larger constellation). |
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Nov 4 2004, 04:19 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
That's why it is a nice movie. I simply hate!!! the original novel Birdy |
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