[SoA2064] SOTM:2064, State of the Munchkin Options

[Shockwave_IIc]

Aye, The real meaning of the word Geas IMO

[Ol' Scratch]

Note that that revolves around voluntarily choosing to never obey the geas again. Breaking a geas or being unable to fulfill one are completely different than that and both of them come with their own penalties (such as a +1 TN on magical skills).

What Eyeless Blond is referring to is the only other means short of shedding a geas that a magician can do in order to permanently remove a geas. As he quoted, doing so is a really, really bad idea.

If you take it the way Blond is presenting it, anyone with a Fasting geas is on the road to being a burnout the first time they eat something.

EDIT: Here's an example. Say you're a dedicated Path Magician from Tir na n'Og who practiced magic there all your life. As the days rolled on you had to take a geas for one reason or another and, thinking life was good, you decided to take geasa that went along with your Path. The first one you took was a Time geas that limited you to casting only during half the year in which your Path has its strength, and your second Time geas limited you further to the single season in which you gain your bonus. Your third one is a Condition geas that only lets you cast magic while you're in your Path's county.

Now let's say that Something Bad happens and you find yourself a runner hiding out in Seattle. You have four choices. 1) Give up on magic altogether. 2) Continue using your magic even though you have to break all three of your geasa more often than not, thus giving you a +3 TN penalty on all of your Magic Skills. 3) Initiate three times to shed each of those geasa you took. And 4) voluntarily give up your geasa in the manner Eyeless Blond quoted, thus allowing you to work magic without any TN penalties (but at a reduced Magic).

[Eyeless Blond]

[Eyeless Blond]

[toturi]

[Ol' Scratch]

[mrobviousjosh]

[Eyeless Blond]

No, it is in fact only 1% of the world who can use magic, in any form. P. 28.

As for toturi's comment about it being the players and not the characters avoiding the geas, to a point that's true. Before the character takes the geas, it's really not up the the character at all, but up to the player and the GM. Naturally the GM is going to discuss the nature of the geas with the player, and they're going to argue back and forth about the nature of the geas, what it entails, how it can be fufilled/broken, that sort of thing. Throughout this whole process there is no penalty to the player for wanting to argue about the extent or complexity of his geas. It's all part of the normal OOC disscussion, and doesn't really affect the character mechanically in any way, although if the player starts acting like a dick he might find that his character's chosen Talisman is a 3-foot tall stone wheel with a square hole in the middle filled with lead. :D

Eventually (hopefully) the GM and the player will come to agreement as to how the geas works, and then it is applied. It is at this point that the geas stops being about the player and the GM, and starts being about the character. The character is the one fufilling (or not-fufilling, as the case may be) the geas, and thus the one who is choosing when and how hard to apply himself toward that geas. Just as magic is all about perspective, so is a geas all about perspective, specifically the character's perspective.

The brilliant thing about geasea is that, in this view, they are self-regulating. If he's finding the geas too easy to fufill, not requiring any sacrifice or hardship or even extra effort, then the character will recognize at some level that it's not a very good geas, and it will cease to be effective. Example:

Player: Okay, I've got my Toe Ring of Righteousness on, so that fufills my Talisman Geas again, so I can cast my Manabolt 6 and not take physical Drain.
[Note this is after some time with this Talisman Geas was taken, at least one full run and a few dozen castings. The GM has warned him that the character has been getting rather complacent about his Geas, and the player's been ignoring him. Time for a gentle reminder.]
GM: [rolls some dice] Unfortunately you seem to have broken your Geas. The Moderate wound you take punches you directly in the guts, opening a few random blood vessels and generally messing you up.
Player: WTF?! But I had the Toe Ring on! What gives?
GM: Well it seems the Toe Ring just hasn't been as effective as it used to be. Maybe you should think about putting a little more effort into your geas?

Of course this is very rough, and might be considered railroading if there isn't some amount of history leading up to it, but it's really no different than someone losing a point of magic because they pissed off their totem.

[toturi]

Actually Geasa are not self regulating as you say. Because once it is fixed (after OOC) eg. Talisman, it is the way Magic works to the PC. The PC cannot be breaking the geas in this case since if it was an unsuitable geas, he would never have been able to take it IC.

Following your logic, you could even say that fetish limited spells cannot be cast using a fetish because the fetish isn't as fetishy :D as it used to be.

[Kremlin KOA]

GM"remember when the sammy heel stomped you"
Shaman"Ah drek."
Shaman considers getting new toe ring of righteousness

[Eyeless Blond]

I was just giving an option to those GMs who are stuck with players currently using Toe Rings of Righteousness as talismans. You're certainly free to ignore it, as this part I'm extrapolating from the rules rather than directly quoting and interpreting them.

The poine I was making is that, by the rules, geasea have little to nothing to do with the actual object that you're making a Talisman of, or the specific Gestures you're making. It's all about the meaning behind those objects or gestures or whatever: you are accepting a nontrivial limit on yourself in order to artificially boost your power back to what it was before you lost a chunk of it. What I'm getting at is, the limit must be nontrivial or it's not really a limit, and thus not a geas.

Extrapolating from there, I argue that if something a character is currently doing as a geas really isn't limiting him, then it's not really a geas. Geasea, as I see it, are inane, childish rules that an Awakened fence themselves around with. Fufilling them doesn't really seal some mystical pact with another creature that grants him/her the extra Magic point; rather it's the extra psychological power that you get when you challenge yourself and find yourself worthy of the challenge. So, if something's not a challenge anymore, or ceases to be a sacrifice, then it's no longer a geas and no longer works. Of course this should take quite some time before you actually get hammerred in-game, to allow the character time to figure out how to be more flambuoyant or whatever you need to rededicate yourself to the geas, but it should happen eventually if the guy insists on using a geas-that's-not-really-a-geas. :)

Further, I argue that if a character is purposely undermining his geas, and doesn't heed multiple warnings about feeling like the geas isn't working as well as it has, etc, then you should invoke that last rule that says you give 'em all up. At that point you're not really trying to follow the geas, after all; you're actually trying to *not* follow the geas but still get credit for it. But really, think about who the character is trying to fool. Can you really trick your subconscious through such a stupid trick?

[Fortune]

If the GM agrees to the Talisman Geas in the first place, then by canon just being in possession of that particular Talisman (or a suitable replacement) is enough to fulfill the Geas ... no other ifs, ands, or buts about it. If he doesn't have it, the Geas is not fullfilled and he suffers ... if he has it, he can use his magic normally, as that is all that is required from that particular Geas.

[toturi]

Back on the topic, ladies and gentlemen. Have anyone considered how powerful a PC out of Chargen can be with bound Great Form Elementals?

[Nikoli]

Also, about the talisman, while the item itself is mundane, any person viewing it with astral perception (or possibly emotion sense) will see/feel a bright emotional connection between the awakened and their item. A competent mage (or vindictive) will see that as a potential advantage if they have time to plan. They could instruct the Designated Marksman to shoot the item (called shot for special effect) thus negating the geas until it can be reestablished.

And if you think any group that would capture you wouldn't make use of astral perception in the search, you're nuts.

[Namer18]

Just two quotes for the discussion first I think most people get the idea that gaesa should work half the time from page 32 of magic in the shadows where it discusses that if the gaesa is a condition it should be something that, "generally stops the gaesa half the time."
Second a rule I think lots of people forget is you can only have a number of gaesa equal to your willpower. pg 33 MITS "The maximum number of gaesa a character can take is equal to his unaugmented willpower attribute." Thus in the example dcotor Funkenstein had at the beginning you couldn't gaesa all of those powers since you have seven powers (assuming you count all the improved senses as one power) and a willpower of only 6. It also means that character could not gaesa any cybearwear until they raised their willpower.

[Ol' Scratch]

You can apply a single geas (foolish and lame as that may be) to multiple powers. The limitation is that you can't have more than (Willpower) geasa; thus it would only be a problem if you applied a completely different geas to each of those powers.

[DrJest]

[Ol' Scratch]

Sure, you could interpret it that way if you like. But to do so, you have to ignore the written rules.

MitS p. 33, Adepts and Geasa: "...but a single geas can be applied to several powers."

[DrJest]

Bloody 3rd edition.

Mind you, that's still fairly amibguous; it leaves room for my interpretation. Certainly if you're concerned about geasing powers, it's a valid one.

[Ol' Scratch]

I dunno. Sounds pretty definitive to me. :)

[DrJest]

Yes. But you could (at a pinch) interpret it.. well, to use the example:

Talisman (gold cross with inset sapphire and ivory Christ figure).

Improved Reflexes - Talisman Geas (for the above Talisman)

Improved Unarmed - Talisman Geas (ditto)

Sixth Sense - Talisman Geas (once more with feeling)

That could be said to be applying a single geas to 3 powers, yet it could also be said to be 3 instances of that single geas.

It's playing with words, but if you've got a player prone to abusing it then it's worth playing with those words.

[Fortune]

As usual, Doc is right ... at least as far as I am concerned. The downfall of linking all an Adept's Powers to one Geas is that he is pretty much FUBARed if he can't fullfil it. With different Geasa for each Power it is harder to lose all his abilities at once.

[Ol' Scratch]

[Kanada Ten]

This post is to correct the last posted date, please disregard.
:vanish:

[ialdabaoth]

On the original track of this thread:

I wonder how many of you guys have pondered THIS form of munchkinism:

Create a Mental Adept. Max out his Intelligence, max out his Medicine, Biotech, and Cybernetics B/R skills. Give him Centering and Improved Ability on all his surgery skills. Give him an OBSCENE number of dice to roll when performing surgery, and allow him to Center vs. Penalties.

Now use all the SR Companion rules for cyber-implant surgery - especially the Essence/Bio Index reduction rules. You SHOULD be able to get up to a 95% Essence reduction per implant trivially.

Bonus points for the true munchkin: Attempt to argue with your GM that the Essence reduction successes apply linearly, not sequentially, so a 21-die success rate means 105% Essence reduction, thus GAINING your character 5% of the cyberware's Essence cost in Essence. Duck flying hardbound 3rd Ed. book and supplements.

Granted: he's not a munchkin, per se. He's a munchkin FACTORY. He MANUFACTURES munchkins, in BULK. Take all your other characters to him for implantation, and stack up 20+ Essence worth of cyberware AND 15+ Bio Index worth of bioware on each of your bad-asses. Give your Mage a Trauma Damper for free!