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toturi
So what are the new SOTA munchkin CharGen builds circa 2064? I can foresee some new builds like the social adept with a ton of dice and TN-x and the super Anchored witch. What about you guys?

EDIT: By the way, it is SOTM 2064. biggrin.gif
Ol' Scratch
Here's one that I threw together without even really trying. Now adepts get to completely and wholly dominate social encounters, too. [dry]Yay.[/dry]

Build Points (125): Magic 25, Race 0, Attributes 54, Skills 31, Resources 15
Attributes: Body 3, Quickness 5, Strength 2, Charisma 6, Intelligence 5, Willpower 6
Active Skills: Athletics 3, Etiquette 6, Intimidation 6, Negotiation 6, Pistols 4 (Savalette Guardian 6), Stealth 3 (Sneaking 5)
Knowledge Skills: Acting 4 (Improvisational 6), Psychology 5, Underworld Politics 5; two more of choice at 5 or any variation thereof
Edges & Flaws: Friendly Face, Good Looking & Knows It, Good Reputation 2; Dark Secret, Infirm 3 (decadent). I'd also go with two Connected edges and some more flaws, but I like flaws so.. whatevah.
Adept Powers (Geased): Commanding Voice, Cool Resolve 2, Improved Reflexes 1, Improved Senses (Hearing Amplification, Select Sound Filter 5, Spatial Recognizer), Kinesics 3, Linguistics, Voice Control
Implants: Cybereyes (alpha; Cosmetic Modification, Flare Compensation, Image Link, Low-Light, Eye Light), Datajack (Transducer), Smartlink-2 (alpha).
Contacts: Two Level 1 plus 100,000 nuyen in additional contacts
Resources: Middle Lifestyle (2 months prepaid), Vashon Island Actioner Line Suit, Form Fitting Full Body Armor, Secure Jacket, Savalette Guardian (Persoanlized Grip, Suppressor, Heavy Barrel, Spare Clips, Smartlink-2), Heavy Pistol Ammo (Capsule Rounds with Pepper Spray, EX Explosive, Regular), Pocket Secretary, decent car, whatever else.

Unstoppable at fast-talking his way past anyone unfortunate enough to get in his way, and more than capable of taking down anything he can't fast-talk his way past. If I wanted to feel really dirty, I'd throw in SURGE Changeling (+5) and Dual-Natured (-5) to give him free access to Aura Reading and Astral Projection (Aura Reading = Magical Skill) then score Masking as soon as he initiates the first time.

As soon as he can score enough cash, it's only a simple Etiquette (9) Test with his 9 dice in order for him to snag cultured Tailored Pheromones 2. He can even score AV Ammo with equal ease (and now with +4 dice). Things just proceed to get uglier and uglier when he spends the Karma he earned getting that cash to initiate.

Not happy with those rules at all. Social encounters were one of the few areas where mundanes excelled at. Now that equality has been completely obliterated.
mfb
yep, all the mundane faces are about to get their jobs stolen by the fifteen or so face adepts that exist.
Kagetenshi
Because we all know that only 1% of Shadowrunners are awakened.

~J
mfb
regardless of the percentage of Awakened shadowrunners, i'm still willing to bet that the number of face adepts is pretty low.

at any rate. my favorite munch idea so far is to convince the GM that Small Unit Tactics is a social skill (higher skill allows you to communicate more effectively; the skill seems to have absolutely nothing to do with actual knowledge of tactics, from a mechanical point of view) and then take IA: SUT over and over again.
Ol' Scratch
Screw it then. Let's introduce some of the following powers since it doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot due to the small percentage of adepts in the game. It's all good.

Gunbunny Munchkin
Cost: 1 (Level 1), 2 (Level 2), 3 (Level 3)

The adept is a gunbunny munchkin and can blow stuff up really, really good. Each level reduces the adept's target number for any two Ranged Weapon Skills they choose and grants +1 die on all Ranged Weapon Success Tests. Additionally, apply a +2 modifier to the Concealability of any weapon the adept is packing (including magical and technological tests). If two adepts with Gunbunny Munchkin are in proximity of each other, they can mystically exchange ammunition or some other stupid thing just so this power can match all the capabilities of Kinesics.

Mojoslinging
Cost: 1 (Level 1), 2 (Level 2), 3 (Level 3)

The adept magician is a god of working magic. Each level reduces the target number on all Sorcery and Conjuring tests the adept magician makes as well as granting +1 die on all Magical Skill Success Tests. Additionally, apply a +2 target modifier on any tests made to detect the adept magician's astral signature. If two adept magicians with this power are in close proximity, blah blah blah.

Technomancer
Cost: 1 (Level 1), 2 (Level 2), 3 (Level 3)

The adept is a god of technology. Each level of this power grants a -1 target number modifier on all Electronics and Electronics B/R Tests the adept makes as well as granting +1 die on all Technical Skill Success Tests. Insert two more minor abilities here, one granting a +2 bonus on detecting the use of technology.

Hacker Aficianado
Cost: 1 (Level 1), 2 (Level 2), 3 (Level 3)

When it comes to decking, nothing stands before the awesome might of the adept with this power. Each level of Hacker Aficiando grants a -1 target number modifier on all uses of the Computers and Info Sortilage skills as well as a +1 die bonus when using any Technical Skill. Such an adept also grants a +2 bonus to their Masking score while decking, and two adepts with this power who are in close proximity can yakity yak yak yak.

etc. When you add them to your game, be sure to make it so that the adept can use Improved Ability with the related skills, too. Grade A game balance.
mfb
wow, you're right. saying that there aren't enough face adepts to put mundane faces out of business is exactly the same as saying that adepts should be more powerful because there aren't many of them. dude, do you even think before you post stuff like this?
Ol' Scratch
There aren't enough adept deckers to put mundane deckers out of business, so why not include the horribly broken Hacker Aficianado power? There's also not enough adept magicians to put normal magicians out of business, so why not include Mojoslinging? There's certainly not enough adept gunbunnies to put mundane gunbunnies out of business, so why not include Gunbunny Munchkin? etc.

It's exactly the same argument and a pathetically ridiculous one at that.

EDIT: But if you and Kagentenshi were trying to say something else with those comments, I apologize. Please feel free to explain if that's the case, because rarity is no excuse for broken game balance.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 2 2004, 01:49 AM)
...higher skill allows you to communicate more effectively; the skill [Small Unit Tactics] seems to have absolutely nothing to do with actual knowledge of tactics, from a mechanical point of view...

Err, it's mechanically a combination of the two. Someone with Small Unit Tactics can be the best communicator the world has ever seen (high Charisma and Social Skills), but he's not going to grant any significant advantage to his team due to his crappy understanding of tactics. Likewise, someone with Small Unit Tactics 1 might be the greatest tactician to ever grace the land (high Intelligence and Military Knowledge Skills), but if he doesn't have the ability to affectively communicate his orders to his team, it's not going to mean a whole lot. Those who learn to do both well (high Small Unit Tactics skill) get the biggest bang out of their buck.
Bane
I guess the issue here is that, realistically, 1% of the population is Awakened. However, how many GMs enforce those rules for their players during character creation?

Regardless of their rarity, there's nothing stopping a player (except the GM, of course, but let's ignore that for the moment) from making their character a social adept. I think Doc's issue is that he sees no reason not to make any Face an adept because of the "ridiculous" advantage kinesics gives them.

Ironically, my most recent munchkin character happens to be an adept specializing in daytime-infiltration, i.e. Disguise. If I can ever figure out how those rules work (from SOTA:63) then I might even play him. He most definitely takes advantage of everything being complained about in this thread thus far.
mfb
it should be noted that you've apparently misread Kinesics. the power does not grant extra dice to social skills, it adds extra dice to Charisma success tests tha the character makes in social situations.

your argument sounds nice, but it doesn't jive with the way things actually work out. ranged weapon skills, mojo-slinging, tech skills, and decking are all pretty common in most games; in any game that includes them, you roll skills related to those lots and lots of times every game session. -3 to two ranged weapon skills is a really big deal, because a gunbunny adept will probably roll his ranged weapon skill 10-15 times per game session (to fabricate from whole cloth a number based on the current contents of my ass). that's less true with tech skills, making your technomancer power almost plausible. social skill rolls, however, don't happen a whole lot. most encounters that require them, you roll once or maybe twice and that's it; there might be one or two such encounters per session. for that reason, social powers should be a bit more beefy than, say, gunbunny powers.
Bane
That's pretty typical for an adept power -- all of the IA work the same way.

As far as I can tell, that small distinction only makes a difference if someone is rolling an Opposed Test against that skill. I don't see any situation in which that would happen with Social skills.

Also, justifying the cost/effects of a power based on how often it's used is somewhat faulty (as I think has been mentioned). While what you say is true in most games, perhaps there are games where the opposite is true? I do agree with what you're saying, but it's just not a very pleasing justification. Personally, I find all of the new powers, including Kinesics, to be quite balanced. Yes, Level 3 is going to make a character into a Social GOD. It's also going to make him extremely specialized. Those 3 Power Points could just as easily go into something more universally applicable like Improved Reflexes, Improved Senses (a LOT of them), etc. If a character wants to play the uber-Face, more power to them. They won't be doing much else.
mfb
games in which the opposite is true will invariably involve specialized houserules anyway. witness games which focus on any single area, in SR--find me a Matrix-only game without houserules, or a gunbunny-only game, or a magic-only game. SR does not bear up very well, when one looks too closely at any of the diverse fields it covers.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 2 2004, 02:49 AM)
regardless of the percentage of Awakened shadowrunners, i'm still willing to bet that the number of face adepts is pretty low.

But I'm willing to bet that the number is now almost equal to the subset of players who both would otherwise play a mundane Face and who now have SOTA2064.

Mundane faces aren't obsolete in the world of the game. They're just no longer good choices for player characters.

~J
GunnerJ
Looking just at the names of the powers without seeing their description, I'd say one of the developers wanted to make Abelard Lindsey but couldn't find any way to do so with standard SR rules.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
But I'm willing to bet that the number is now almost equal to the subset of players who both would otherwise play a mundane Face and who now have SOTA2064.

I think this really nails the issue, here. No one is saying that face adepts will remove mundane faces from the gaming world. They're saying that face adepts will remove mundane faces from the gaming table. There's no reason to play one anymore. The rules for face adepts make them SO infathomably superior that if you're going to play a face, there's one way to do it.
Of course, any character can still have a few social skills, but compared to these new social adepts, it'll be hard to call them a face, anymore.
I think that's more what people are worried about.

The thing that worries me is ever-so-slightly different. Magically active are 1% of the population, but there are more in the shadows. Fine. Whatever. Initiated magicians are supposed to be a rarity, but the rules hardly support this, and the modules support it even less. Almost every module magician is an initiate. And in any campaign I play initiation is the first thing any magician does. I'm starting to veer off topic, but my issue is: will every fixer and every Johnson in the modules start being a social adept, whenever they want things to get "serious"? Every module writer will want to use one, and if everyone uses one, they're fragging everywhere. Then what happened to our tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of 1%? But hopefully it won't be an issue.
Edward
Persona;y I donít see a great problem.

Adepts with guns and a small amount of cyber are the best with there chosen class of gun but donít have much else. Melee adepts are not usually much good at ranged or social and the social adept just listed was an average combatant at best (no melee skill at all).

Adepts are now able to be the best at more things than they where but still have a problem managing competence in more than one secondary skill.

A mundane face with all other arias as tertiary at best is no longer something anybody would play. That said I would never have played one anyway. Face/Decker or face/mage or face/rigger or combat/tactician/face are all fare more fun because you have something to do when your not negotiating. And the social adept tends to lock you down just as the pistol adept or the stealth adept or the mele adept did.

Edward
mfb
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
But I'm willing to bet that the number is now almost equal to the subset of players who both would otherwise play a mundane Face and who now have SOTA2064.

eh, that really depends on the character concept. if you're playing a straight face, sure, you'll probably want to go adept. decker/face? not so much (and if you tell me that all you need to be a decker is a 'jack and the Computer skill, i will punch you in the face).

i don't understand the whole thing where now, adepts and mages are 'taking over every aspect of the game', though. i mean, before SOTA:64, adepts could be good at combat, sneakery, mobility, and what, exactly? "social encounters were one of the few areas where mundanes excelled at" my butt. how about rigging? decking? tactical command? technical monkeyology? hell, even before SOTA:64, adepts and mages had the advantage in the social department, in that they didn't take that +1 or higher TN mod on social tests for having cyberware.
Deadeye
I may be off base here, but it seems to kinda boil down to the old question of magic vs. technology. All things being even, a mojo-slinger or an adept will smoke a mundane without breaking a sweat. Thats why it MAGIC; it gives them an edge. If you are the most charming guy in the world but the dude next to you is magically influencing peoples emotions (ala the old Troubadors in ED) then, sorry, but you're going to loose out.

Now, when you throw technology into the mix, it kinda evens things out, but that's the point. The magic cycle is repeating itself, but this time around there's technology to even the score a bit.

That's how I see it, anyway.
Tanka
Deadeye: A Magician/Adept will smoke a regular mundane. Give that mundane Wired Reflexes 3 and a Smartlink and the mundane will hose both the Adept and the Magician on his first action. (BF Adept, BF Magician, assuming neither have hefty combat pools/barriers/et cetera.)
Ol' Scratch
Uhm, tanka, adepts can meet and beat Wired Reflexes 3. Hell, they don't even need to bother with it; Quick Strike will smoke the samurai no matter how insanely high he takes his Reaction and Initiative. Quick Strike + Improved Ability: Pistols 6 + Remington Roomsweepers loaded with shot + Ambidexterity 4 = Dead Group of Anybodies.

QUOTE (mfb)
i don't understand the whole thing where now, adepts and mages are 'taking over every aspect of the game', though. i mean, before SOTA:64, adepts could be good at combat, sneakery, mobility, and what, exactly?

Why do they have to be able to make anything else obselete? That's three significant portions of the game alone.

QUOTE
"social encounters were one of the few areas where mundanes excelled at" my butt. how about rigging?

That would be one of the few other areas. And note the emphasis on the word "excel." Not "match." And when I personally say "excel," I mean "through the use of implants" even though adepts can take the same implants just as easily.

QUOTE
decking?

Ditto.

QUOTE
tactical command?

Disagreed. Unless you're playing in a niche game where a GM is allowing access to milspec cyberware, and a player is willing to pay out the ass for what ends up being a minor boost to a rarely-used skill anyway. Otherwise, they're matched in their options.

QUOTE
technical monkeyology?

Other than Task Pools, only barely. Adepts have access to Microscopic Vision (a TN bonus always trumps extra dice) and their advantages in the stealth department allows them to get into position to use their skills more easily. I'd put that as a "match" overall, though based only on skill it's a "ditto."

So yeah, one major area, one average area that's usually delegated to NPCs, and one minor area that's only a marginal advantage to mundanes. Joy of joys. Combat, Stealth, Speed, Mobility, and now Social, Artistic, and Technical areas are their domains. Might as well throw the rest in there, too, and get rid of mundanes as players completely.

Afterall, that's what it was like in Earthdawn, right?
Tanka
I believe he was going for your "run of the mill" Magician/Adept, but that was my take.

I was also going under the general assumption that Adepts suck straight out of chargen. They are typically good at one thing and one thing only, but do eventually branch out after earning some Karma.

However, generally, cybered mundanes are better than magically actives for a little while. Eventually they get outclassed in their chosen field of expertise (save Riggers and Deckers, as there are no Adept equivalents for those), but that tends to be the case.
Ol' Scratch
Might wanna check the second post in this thread. A face who's just as good in combat as a sammy, and who could be even better if he really wanted to (I just like Commanding Voice and Voice Control; ditching both of those'll let you get Improved Reflexes 2). In another thread I showed a starting adept who was good at melee, ranged, and social encounters.

When an adept is a specialist to the point of being a munchkin at character creation. But they can be generalists, too, while being only moderately abusive compared to their mundane counterparts.
mfb
Quick Strike is nice until you get an L wound, doc. that's a pretty major liability; i'd put Wired-3 as beating that. and adept's can't take the same implants "just as easily", since doing so directly reduces their adept abilities. even if they geas the loss, that's not anything close to the ease with which a sam gets cyber implanted.

you're also neglecting the part where adepts have a much harder time maintaining multiple areas of expertise. a mundane can easily be proficient in tech and social skills, high-end in combat skills, and still have enough left over for some vehicle stuff, simply because they don't have to spend karma to upgrade their 'edge' (cyber). adepts have to stretch every point of karma they get just to stay competitive in the one or two fields they've chosen to excel at; branching out beyond that can only be done at a cost to the adept's main function until you reach the 200 karma mark (or thereabouts).
Ol' Scratch
Oh please. The only advantage cyberware grants when you upgrade it is that it allows you to implant more implants or improve their abilities. That's identical to the improvements an adept undergoes as they advance. They then have alllll that same cash the mundane is burning on their implants surgery to either buy lots of SOTA gear or convert it to Good Karma (individual GMs not withstanding)... the latter of which they can use to "upgrade" their adept powers that much more (no upper barrier) or improve their skills or attributes just like the sammy can.

My example of using Quick Strike was for a niche counterargument. Tanka was pitting a sammy with Wired-3 (which I've never seen a starting sammy take, ever, due to the cost and Essence loss -- talk about a one trick pony). If the adept chose to do so, he could do the exact same thing and get an even bigger bonus by geasing it (whereas the sammy, even getting it as used alphaware, has to also get a Reflex Trigger and only a 20% discount on the package; the adept is getting a 25% discount and no Stress). So now we have an adept with 2.25 full points of Power Points he can spend on other abilities whereas the sammy has only 1.83 points of Essence to blow.

Mundanes do have a wider selection of "cheaper" (Essence-wise) implants they can get and can, very easily, be very broadly generalized. In fact, I actually prefer playing mundanes. But that doesn't mean adepts suck compared to them, nor does it mean that they can't be generalists, too. They just have the option of being insanely specialized, too. That's an advantage not a disadvantage.

The 200+ Karma baloney is only if you want an adept to be unbeatable in every category compared to a mundane. They can more than keep up from the start of the game. Feel free to hunt down the thread where I listed the other starting adept and pit him against a starting sammy specialized in melee, ranged, and social encounters and see how he fairs in comparison (keeping in mind the adept was designed to be a playable character).
mfb
that's fine and dandy, if your GM lets you do karma-for-cash. a quick trip through the Search function will tell you how common that is. you're completely ignoring that while adetps have alllll that cash, they run ouuuut of karma really quickly. and that 'no upper barrier' thing is total crap. i can count on the fingers of my crotch the number of games i've seen that go high enough for that lack of an upper limit come into play. also, you're still hashing the same old malarky where geasa magically reduce power costs without adding any limitations. applying geasa limits powers. that's what they're for. there's also the point that adept powers are far, far more subject to loss through damage than cyberware is. sams end up with a buttload more armor to reduce damage, and a buttload more dice to resist it with, which rounds out to a buttload less worry about cybersystem damage. meanwhile, adepts have a better-than-average chance of losing magic every time they take a D wound, get hit with a stimpatch, or take medical care without the +2 TN mod. oh yeah, they also have a lesser chance of resisting attribute stress.
Ol' Scratch
If you want to go step-by-step with all the reprecussions of cyberware and adept powers, I'm more than game for it. In the end, the two balance out almost exactly the same. Alphaware implants cost more and reduce implants by 20%; geased powers come with a minor inconvenience on occasion and reduce power costs by 25%. Implants affect your health directly and make you more suspectable to Essence drain while adept powers require you to have a higher TN on Healing Tests (which is more than matched by a 2.01 Bio Index alone). Implants cause Social problems, adept powers do not. Implants (particularly sensory ones) are technological and in some cases have inferior modifiers compared to the modifiers for natural abilities, of which most adept powers use. Implants tend to be cheaper (Essence wise only) for what they grant when compared to adept powers. Sammies have to worry about Stress and failure of their implants, adepts have to worry about Magic loss. Defensively, samurai tend to be superior to adepts (more Body, somewhat more armor). Offensively, it's exactly the opposite (adepts have tons more dice and better TNs in several cases). etc.

And while you easily dismiss it, adepts do have the option of acquiring all the same toys a samurai does, so any significant advantage an implant provides is just as available to an adept as it is a sammy. Samurai do not have the luxury of the reverse, however. Chock up another point to an adept's versatility.

That out of the way, whether or not Karma-for-Cash is common or not amongst a small group of online nerds means nothing. It's a valid rule in the game; if you choose not to use it, that's your perogative. But dismissing it because it counters your argument is just sad. The entire point of the rule is that it allows all characters to gain the reward that they need to improve their abilities at a similar rate as other characters; riggers get to blow their Karma on buying more drones and vehicles, magicians get to blow their Cash on initiating and learning spells, and characters who fall in between get to tailor there reward to what they want or need at any given point.

An adept who's earned about 50 Karma and 250,000 nuyen (assuming an average of 5,000 nuyen in direct payment per Karma) will be in significantly better shape than a sammy with the same resources. Especially if the Karma-for-Cash rules are in play. Triplely(?) so with the advent of SOTA:2064.

And so help me if one more person says that geasa are supposed to be a constant thorn in a magician's side. To quote you from somewhere else, I'll punch them in the face. So help me.
Critias
Maybe part of the reason you keep squawking about how mages and adepts are too potent is somehow related to the way you keep squawking about how Geas aren't supposed to be a serious liability. I mean, if every mage or adept, ever, maximized all their powers by taking Geasa, etc, etc, and those Geasa never slowed them down or stopped them or were more than an "occasional minor inconvenience," as you put it...

Well, yeah. I mean, it would make sense for you to feel as strongly as you do about this supposed imbalance.
Fortune
Geas are limitations, period. Some are more drastic than others. Some come into play more often than others. Inventive use of Geasa should not be a licence for the GM to start a witch-hunt against the PC.
Deadeye
Er...tanka, you missed my point. I wasn't comparing cyber to magic (for a reason--yesh) I was comparing a magical "face" to a mundane one. I'd wager that not a whole lot of people play perfectly mundane folks with no cyber--though I'm sure some do, so don't jump down my throat--because they are at such a disadvantage in the 6th world. Story wise, technology closes that gap, and the two are roughly equal, though there are disparities in both.

And Dr. Funkenstein, I'm sorry buddy, but I gotta agree with Critias on this one, at least in part. Geasa really should limit the powers and be a pain. But that's the beauty of the game: if your group doesn't agree, then the geasa are less of a biggy. Have fun, play Shadowrun, and all that stuff.

Now I'll weave and dodge, using my high combat pool to make myself difficult to punch.
Eyeless Blond
"...adepts have a better-than-average chance of losing magic every time they take a D wound..."

Hey, now there's something that just occured to me: every time an Awakened goes under the knife he has to roll for magic loss at least once, doesn't he? First off the the D Stun that all surgical proceedures require (p. 146 M&M), then again if the doctor "forgets" to take the +2 while healing. This is of course beside the actual Essence loss/Bio Index gain. I suppose that's another reason for Awakened not to do surgery.

I'm beginning to wonder about these social adept powers though. Already any and all nonmagical noncybered characters are virtually unplayable; until now you could play a passable Face with no magic and little cyber, but I guess those days are gone. mfb and others have convinced me that adepts and Awakened in general for that matter don't necessarily trump mundanes *everywhere*, but I am still worried that in two or three SOTAs the completely nonmagical character is basically obselete at the gaming table.

If I wanted to play a game where I could either be a mage or sit in the corner and wait until the mages were done deciding who really wins, I'd be playing D&D. nyahnyah.gif
Ol' Scratch
That's it. Time to get my old knuckle-dusters out of storage. I'm comin' for both of you punks...
mfb
jesus, funk, what are geasa for, if not imposing restrictions? if geasa aren't a hinderance, then you're not using them right. this isn't about punishing players, it's about the proper use of game mechanics.

QUOTE (Doc Funk)
An adept who's earned about 50 Karma and 250,000 nuyen (assuming an average of 5,000 nuyen in direct payment per Karma) will be in significantly better shape than a sammy with the same resources.

having played that adept in conjunction with someone who's played that sam, i really have to disagree.
Critias
There's a difference between a witch hunt and a realistic, balancing, limitation that's equal to the .25 cost break you receive.

In much the same way, there's a difference between an "inventive" usage of the Geas rules, and someone out to bend them over and not even offer up a reacharound.

All I'm saying is Funk seems to think -- and this comes out on multiple threads, multiple times -- that Geas aren't supposed to really be any sort of serious hindrance. Funk also seems to think -- same, here, it's documented pretty clearly -- that adepts and mages are just all-around broken compared to mundanes. I'm hypothesizing that perhaps these two stances are not wholly unrelated.

I mean, if (for instance) I played in a game where money fell from heaven in the form of certified credsticks gently lowered to the pavement by way of little parachutes that kept them from getting dinged up upon landing, and deckers farts smelled like strawberries, and if every other street corner had a Delta clinic, and if my GM didn't allow cash for karma, and chose to use the optional "don't cut Drain power in half" special rules? Maybe I'd think that mundanes were overpowered, y'know?

It could just be an issue stemming from the sort of games he plays in, or the sort of GMs he has, etc, etc. I'm not gonna say it's right or wrong, just that he could be a product of his environment (like everyone else is, too). Maybe his GMs go a little softer on mages and the like than some people, and maybe that's why he thinks like he does. It's not bad, it's not good, it just is.

Where I play, and where a few other posters on here play, we tend to be pretty strict with Geasa and how limiting they are. We also tend to not have any sort of lopsided power struggle between mundanes and Talented, except at the absurdly potent and experienced level (and even there, only because the only absurdly experienced characters around are both Talented, meaning they can sort of dominate the field). So maybe that's why we tend to think that the magic versus tech battle is taking place on a fairly even playing field.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
...and those Geasa never slowed them down or stopped them or were more than an "occasional minor inconvenience," as you put it...

I have never said geasa are never a limitation. I have said that they're not a constant limitation like so many of the twits around here insist on making them out to be. In effect, they are to adept powers what alpha grade implants are to mundanes; a means of getting a minor reduction at a cost; adepts gain an occasional limitation (handcuffs for a Gesture geasa, Silence spells or needing to stay stealthy for Incantation geasa, imprisonment for Talisman geasa, etc.), sammies pay twice as much cash.

Nowhere in the rules for geasa do they ever state that they should be a constant pain in the ass, and nowhere near the level you guys constantly harp on about.
Tanka
Deadeye: In Social situations? Well, give the mundane Cultured Tailored Pheremones and he starts to even out. Give him all the Social Edges, some plastic surgery to make him look even better, et cetera...

Yes, with all these neato powers, Adepts are going to kill in the Social world.

However, why not throw in a bit of paranoia surrounding them? If they're known to be Adepts, make it tougher for them to be Social ones because of fear and paranoia. Not to mention, as it's State of the Art, it isn't exactly out and about in massive quantities yet. It's new. It's fresh. It isn't yesterday's garbage like a Predator that can be found at any gun shop (and probably quite a few regular stores).

Just because a new book comes out doesn't mean it's immediately available everywhere. You still have to hunt things down.

If it's SotA, it probably won't filter down to your Average Joe for at least six months, if not a year or more.

Edit: Real world example...

64-bit processors. When they came out, they were running over $500 USD for the chip alone. Motherboards and RAM for them were (combined) about as much as the processor alone.

Now they're... ~$300 USD (might want to double check me on that) with mobos and RAM combining for ~$400 (512MB, usually).

Even with the hot tech, programmers aren't up-to-date running 64-bit programs. There are a few, but not a lot, as most people are still using 32-bit processors like the "old" Intels and AMDs.

How about PCI Express? Pretty new, and barely used in any systems. Any systems that do have them, though, are going to cost you a pretty penny.

It's SotA, your Average Joe doesn't have it yet because it's still too expensive to really worry about.
Critias
Hey, is calling people twits against the TSS? Or does it not count as an insult, since he didn't specifically single out any of the twits he's forced to demean himself by arguing with? Just curious.

Anyways. That's fine, Funk. Keep just assuming that we're hobbling every Adept ever, and that your interpretation (or your GMs, whatever) is the only correct one.

Personally, I don't see how an IA: Rifles Geasa of "only when taking an Aim action" is a horrible and Adept-crippling limitation, or how "most succeed on a Willpower test with a TN based on the number of boxes of damage taken" Geas is somehow wholly inappropriate or limiting for an Adept who wants a decreased cost on Resist Pain. Both of those, by the by, are Geasa I made up for Adepts I play -- not ones my GM imposed on me, etc, etc.

Are those Geasa, to you, more or less restrictive than a Geasa should be? I'm curious. How do those ones stack up, since you're (apparently) assuming that we twits hate Adepts and want them to fail, or something?
Dashifen
I'll back Doc Funk up on the geasa stuff for adepts (and other awaked characters). I have to work hard as a GM and force the adepts into situations where their geas don't apply by railroading more often than not. Otherwise, the player will quickly realize that by carefull game play they can avoid or negate most limitations most of the time. Plus, to create a limitiation as a result of a geasa I often feel like one must target a specific player with opposition meant to defeat that player. But many times there's no way to do this in game without being obvious about it. Ooops! Your character with a talisman geasa was just pickpocketed and they took the sculpted whale-bone inlaid with copper necklace but left your credsticks. Weird that.
mfb
losing access to your magic 50% of the time is not a minor inconvenience, doc. nowhere in the rules does it say that geasa should be the minor irritant that you constantly insist they are.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
That's fine, Funk. Keep just assuming that we're hobbling every Adept

I'm not assuming jack shit there. You guys are the one who are constantly whining about how geasa must be a constant thorn, not me.

QUOTE
Personally, I don't see how an IA: Rifles Geasa of "only when taking an Aim action" is a horrible and Adept-crippling limitation

Feel free to find a single occasion where I ever said it was, or that that was even a suitable geas. I'll save you the time: I HAVEN'T.

QUOTE
Are those Geasa, to you, more or less restrictive than a Geasa should be? I'm curious. How do those ones stack up, since you're (apparently) assuming that we twits hate Adepts and want them to fail, or something?

Pick up the fucking book and read it. That's how I treat geasa.
Critias
Ooh, sounds like someone's getting a little touchy.

Care to try actually answering my question, this time around, champ? I'm curious about what you -- not the book, I know what it thinks -- think about those sample Geasa I just named. They aren't explicitly covered by the book, anyways, as they're a sort of conditional/action geasa blend I've worked up, but ones that I think are appropriate.

So, what do you say? Pretend you're my GM. Thumbs up, thumbs down? What? Are those Geasa too harsh, too soft...?
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (mfb)
losing access to your magic 50% of the time is not a minor inconvenience, doc.

That applies to a single type of geas, and one of the most brutal ones of the lot. I never said otherwise. I believe it was Wireknight who said ALL geas should limit an adept 50% of the time. Not me, and certainly not the rules.

QUOTE
nowhere in the rules does it say that geasa should be the minor irritant that you constantly insist they are.

Why don't you go grab the book and read it. Then explain to me how a Gesture geas should limit an adept 12/7 or 24/3.5. Ditto for most of the other geasa, or even the creation of new ones outside of Time geasa. Go on. Find it and quote it.
Tanka
Just a thought, Doc, but maybe you should take a breather. Go break a punching bag or something.
mfb
you people post too fast.

a gesture geas is a hinderance 24/7, 365 days a year. it's not a show-stopper, but it does mean that you can't cast without it being obvious. in SR, where sneakery is supposed to be king, that's a pretty big limit. same with incantations. the rest of the geasa i see are similarly limiting.
Fortune
QUOTE (Critias)
There's a difference between a witch hunt and a realistic, balancing, limitation that's equal to the .25 cost break you receive.

In much the same way, there's a difference between an "inventive" usage of the Geas rules, and someone out to bend them over and not even offer up a reacharound.

I wasn't responding to your post (I hadn't seen it when I hit 'Reply') ... merely expressing my point of view on Geas. I should have added the word 'though' to the end of my last sentence. wink.gif

Seriously though, some Geas (i hate that spelling ... I prefer Gaes) are more restrictive than others. I feel that if a player comes to me with a Geas that fits his character concept, but in some ways might be a little less limiting than some of the canon examples, then he should be entitled to use it. As I said, it is a restriction, and it will come into play at some point or another, but that may not be every time the sun rises, or every time he eats something.

On the topic of Adepts, they have the power to be almost as versatile as the Sammy, but exceeding him in one or two (or even three if the player is a good munchkin) fairly important areas, esecially as the Karma starts to roll in.

In the 50 Karma/250,000:nuyen: debate, with optimized characters, the Adept would win hands down if Cash for Karma is in effect, and would come out pretty even otherwise, with a slight edge to the Adept if he chose to add the odd strategic bit of Bio/Cyber.
Critias
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I'm not assuming jack shit there. You guys are the one who are constantly whining about how geasa must be a constant thorn, not me.

Actually, we haven't ever used the word "constant," if you'll pay attention (and I know you won't, you're too busy eating handful after handful of blood pressure medication, and gnashing your teeth, apparently)... we're suggesting a vague sort of "50% guideline," that you keep insisting is too harsh of us.

Which is why -- again -- I've started trying to list a few Geasa I can think up off the top of my head, to see what you think of them. If they're too mean for you to think are necessary, if they're too soft for you to think are fair... I'm going for an earmark here. A discussion. A sharing of ideas, for increased mutual understanding.
Ol' Scratch
Bullshit. You're trolling. Fuck off.
mfb
okay, funk's being a 'tard again. time for me to find a new thread.
Tanka
Doc, you're doing a bit more trolling than they are.

You really should just sit back and relax for a bit. Shadowrun isn't something worth getting worked up over. Nothing in life is. (Except maybe when your favorite band quits out at a concert just two-and-a-half songs into their set. nyahnyah.gif)
Critias
Boy, golly. You're right. It sure does look like *I'M* the one trolling right now.

So, anyone else? Thoughts on those Geasa I mentioned?

A sharpshooter having to slowly aim, control his breathing, etc -- too much, too little? Should I negate the actual "-1 TN" for aiming, and just consider that action the cost of using his IA? Or...what? Anyone?

The second one (Willpower test vs. damage taken, in order to ignore the pain) is one I've been thinking about for an adept who hasn't gotten any play time, yet. Sound good? Sound bad? Should the amount of damage ignored be success based, or an "all or nothing" affair? Any thoughts, anyone?

I'm trying to get an idea for what other people think Geasa are, or aren't, by sharing my own, and seeing how they stack up. Maybe that'll clear the air a little, as the argument/debate progresses.
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