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Ol' Scratch
I was fine until that jackass Critias started on with the whole squacking crap as a personal insult.

Considering neither he nor mfb can be bothered to crack open a book and cite a single quote to back up their views, I'm not going to bother replying to any more completely ignorant and blantantly wrong assumptions about the game.

At least the confusion with mfb seems to be that he's using the word "limitation" in place of "potential limitation that will reduce the effectiveness of the linked power" whereas I'm using it as "an actual reduction fo the power when used." A Time geas limits an adept powers half the time. Most other geasa limit powers only on rare occasions, though they have the potential to limit an adept's powers most of the time. Huge difference between the two.

EDIT: What's really confusing is that if mfb is using the term in that context, he's actually being more lax with geasa than I am.
Fortune
Critias: I'd rule OK on the sharpshooter one, although it'd never be one I'd personally take for a character.

For the other, if Pain Resistance is automatic (getting old ... can't remember), then that Geas is fine I guess, although it isn't usual to go that high with the Power that it'd be much restriction, and maybe too much restriction if it is taken at the extreme.
Critias
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I was fine until that jackass Critias started on with the whole squacking crap as a personal insult.

My bad. I didn't realize "squawking" was such a greivous personal insult, wherever it is you're from. It sure is on par with all the crap you've been flinging. My mistake.

But, hey, once again, kudos on evading the actual topic at hand, and just insisting stubbornly that we're the ones who don't know what we talking about, instead of answering any questions or furthering the conversation in any reasonable, positive, manner.

So, yeah. Given the evidence thus far, I'm left just continuing to think that maybe you beleive Adepts are overpowered because Geasa aren't very limiting. Way to change my mind, or anything.
Ol' Scratch
You've confused me with someone who gives a fuck what you think any longer.
Critias
Nope. Just got you mixed up with someone worth talking SR with, apparently. My mistake. Sorry about the friction, everyone, I'll try not to let it happen again.

Fortune: any reason for the "I'd never take it" feeling about the sharpshooter one? I just know how overpowering anyone with a sniper rifle can be in the first place, much less one with extra dice to roll, so I figured effectively cutting his rate of fire in half (while sticking to the flavor of a sharpshooting character, as someone who doesn't pull the trigger as fast as he can) was a decent balance.

And, for the damage resistance once, I'm still not sure on the best way to handle it, either. S'why I'm asking. wink.gif I thought it'd be cool to build right into it the fact that the Adept has to focus and concentrate to literally push the pain aside, and that sometimes he just can't -- but I'm having trouble coming up with a way to represent it with the actual die rolls, etc.
Nikoli
Personally,geasa are there to trade one limitation for another.

Taking a Geas Talisman:Must be wearing gloves
Isn't a real limitation since as a criminal, you should be wearing gloves asn probably would be at any given time on a run.
Now, a Geas to never wear gloves it worth considering.

If it is a situation that never could conceivably come up, then it isn't a legitimate geas, imo.
Fasting is a personal fav of mine as you are not normally fasting, you must make a conscious effort to fast (as a GM, using the spells nutrition and such would break the geas) during the run.

And as for the must take aim action, I'd allow that, if there was no beneifit applied to the TN.

One thing that holds true in Shadowrun, power comes at a price.
Sure you can empty a clip fast than most folks can walk across the room an flip on a light switch, but just try to sit down in a family oriented restaurant and have a quiet meal without freaking and geeking the wait staff and the screaming children.
Dashifen
QUOTE (mfb)
you people post too fast.

a gesture geas is a hinderance 24/7, 365 days a year. it's not a show-stopper, but it does mean that you can't cast without it being obvious. in SR, where sneakery is supposed to be king, that's a pretty big limit. same with incantations. the rest of the geasa i see are similarly limiting.

I guess my problem is, however, that gestures doesn't define what a gesture is. I've seen players trying tell me blinking is their gesture. That way, unless someone removed their eyelids, they could always be performing a gesture. Not blinking? Okay, how about smiling, wiggling a toe, scratching your cheek, brushing your hair? These are all gestures, just not obvious ones.
Nikoli
Dash, no offense but if someone handed me a character with any of those 'gestures' as their Geasa IRL, I'd roll it up and bop them on the nose, and hand it back to them.

Dashifen
Actually, in reply to myself, I think Funk's POV on geasa is probably similar to my own. Most of the ones in the book are not restrictive enough. The time limitation, as he mentions above, is fantastic, but most of the other ones are extremely easy to work with.

Plus, players get creative. Had a fenrir shaman that must have eaten raw meat within x hours (don't remember the timespan) to fulfill the geas. So, I made the butchers he worked through think he was buying for a ghoul and a private eye started following him making life hard. So, he decided that pigeons, squirrels, etc. were all meat and killing them was easier than paying a butcher. Then, he got wise to getting sick so investigated sterilize as a spell so that he could "clean" the meat before eating it.

Most of the geasa that I've encountered in around 3 years of gaming have provided the awakened character with a benefit while not providing them with an apprciable limitation in return. But, that's a topic for another thread (not like we haven't done it before grinbig.gif )
Dashifen
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Dash, no offense but if someone handed me a character with any of those 'gestures' as their Geasa IRL, I'd roll it up and bop them on the nose, and hand it back to them.

That's exactly what I did. But, by the rules, they're all gestures and it's only my own feelings that made those geasa invalid. If that player wanted to get uppity about it, I wouldn't have anything to fall back on other than "I'm the GM, damnit, and I say so." which strikes me too close to answering "Because." to the question "Why?"
Fortune
QUOTE (Critias)
any reason for the "I'd never take it" feeling about the sharpshooter one?

Because it applies every single time I want to use that Power. I'm not saying it's bad, and I certainly would allow it in my games. I just don't know if I would personally choose it for a character I was playing, but then I rarely play snipers so that might be it. I'd never apply it to IA: Pistols! eek.gif
mfb
plus, the description of the gesture mentions "free and visible" movement. winking, wiggling, smiling, and scratching one's cheek are not what i'd call "free and visible".

see, that's how this works. geasa are a limitation placed on one's magic. it's up to the GM (and, ideally, the player) to make that limitation a limitation. it's not an excuse to cripple the character, but it's not a minor, occasionaly inconvenience, either. it's a limitation. the geas rules are, i think intentionally, kinda vague on exactly what can and cannot be a geas. that's a license to be creative; not a license to let your players break the game, nor a license to break the characters playing in your game, nor a license to break the game if you're a player.
Critias
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Critias @ Nov 3 2004, 08:39 AM)
any reason for the "I'd never take it" feeling about the sharpshooter one?

Because it applies every single time I want to use that Power. I'm not saying it's bad, and I certainly would allow it in my games. I just don't know if I would personally choose it for a character I was playing, but then I rarely play snipers so that might be it. I'd never apply it to IA: Pistols! eek.gif

Heh, well, yeah. I mean, in a lot of ways, I think the basic combat rules are built around pistols -- the power ratings of weapons, the damage codes, basic armor values, the rate of fire per action... You'd be nuts to cut that in half.

But for someone (ideally) sitting a few hundred meters away, who's supposed to be (almost by definition) placing single, highly accurate, devastating, shots...? I think it's not too bad. And it slowed down the long-range sharpshooter some, compared to the guys who were trying to blaze away with pistols, point blank.

Err, rather, it was neat for the one fight in one game I had the chance to use him in. *sigh*

Thanks for the input, though. I'm always leery of "home brewed" geasa, and try to get feedback from as many folks as I can on 'em, so I can gauge it better before the next zany home-brewed geasa I come up with.

Dashifen
But that exact "vaugeness" (word?) leads to these kinds of problems. Gestures is a more obvious one, but what about talisman? So I have a whale-bone sculpture with an embedded grain of sea salt with tribal symbols on a necklace. IIRC, the talisman gease requires at least three specific "things" to be included with the talisman (i.e. (1) whale bone, (2) sea salt, and (3) tribal symbols). Whether you like my talisman example or not, insert one you do like and we'll move on.

So, the geas is fulfilled as long as the talisman is in the posession of the character. So to break it, take the necklace away. Easy to do if you capture the character, but, unless I missed something the talisman is not magical, just a "crutch" for the player to lean on. Therefore, the guards may not take it away. But what if you can't capture them? Then a pick-pocket might try to steal it, but the fact that this example is a necklace makes that more difficult. A ring or something like that might be more "stealable" but how about a toe-ring. In this case, unless it were a strip search being captured may not even reveal the existence of the talisman and no one is going to pick-pocket your toe-ring.
mfb
the talisman is a fairly identifiable item, which could occasionally make it easier for the character to be tracked down or identified. the character will have a harder time impersonating someone, in the rare case where that might be necessary. hell, once in a while? it's okay to just straight up break that pretty whalebone scrimshaw, just because. not all the time, maybe not even as often as twice in the character's career. a talisman like that--or any other geas--is an opportunity for the GM to make life interesting for the character. not because the player needs to be punished, or anything, but because the GM's entire purpose is to challenge the players.
Dashifen
Nevermind. It's been a long day and I'm not sure what point I was trying to make smile.gif I agree with what mfb said above this post, but somehow I always feel bad as a GM when I target a player like that. I'm probably just too easy on them embarrassed.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 2 2004, 04:30 PM)
hell, once in a while? it's okay to just straight up break that pretty whalebone scrimshaw, just because. not all the time, maybe not even as often as twice in the character's career.

So now you've gone from "geasa have to limit the player 50% of the time because that's the point of a geas" to "once or twice in a character's career." Yet the whole time bitching because I've been saying the latter from the beginning. Jesus. ohplease.gif
mfb
here's the problem, funk. you're constantly using phrases like "occasional, minor inconvenience" to describe geasa. you reference the fact that when you run games, geasa are reasonable limitations, but you never treat them as such on the boards. as soon as someone mentions adepts, you pipe right up with how adepts can geasa their powers, and you never mention the limits those geasa place on the powers they're applied to. if you're intending to convey that geasa are a route to power that comes with reasonable limits built in, you should stop the constant harping on how the Awakened ability to use geasa on magic lost to cyber makes them uberbadasses that ruin the game for everyone else. every time someone mentions the magic loss cyber incurs, you throw geasa back without mentioning anything about the drawbacks geasa include. so, yeah, lots of us kinda think that you view geasa as occasional hinderances that don't really slow adepts/mages down, especially when you say exactly that. and then? you wonder why the hell those of us who are arguing with you squawk about how limiting geasa are, and how they should present a hurdle for adepts and mages to overcome in exchange for the bonuses they get for taking one. we wouldn't be going overboard about how limiting geasa are, if you'd stop going overboard about how limiting they're not.
Lindt
Children, play nice. extinguish.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
you're constantly using phrases like "occasional, minor inconvenience" to describe geasa. you reference the fact that when you run games, geasa are reasonable limitations, but you never treat them as such on the boards.

Riiiight. I think what you mean to say is that I don't treat them as the whole insane "you MUST restrict the adept 50% of the time because he was dumb enough to take a geas!!!" which is what I oppose. Yes, I do say occasional minor inconvience because they are more often than not an occasional (mfb: "maybe not even as often as twice in the character's career") and minor inconvenience (in that as soon as the limitation is removed -- stepping out of a Silence spell's area for an Incantation geas, escaping handcuffs for a Gesture geas, or recovering/replacing your talisman for a Talisman geas; compare each of those to undergoing surgery to repair Stress to implants -- the inconvenience is gone).

QUOTE
you pipe right up with how adepts can geasa their powers, and you never mention the limits those geasa place on the powers they're applied to.

That's because they can geasa their powers and the limitations geasa imposed is invoked by saying the word "geasa." Why don't you complain when people say "why don't you get that implant as an alpha grade implant, or buy it used to save a little cash?" Same difference.

Or what, do you expect everyone to give an exhaustive list of every little detail of every little game mechanic everytime one is referenced? Or are you going to fly totally off-base and state that the rules say that used implants come with something ridiculous like 9 points of Stress and fail to function 50% of the time despite the rules never stating anything even remotely that bad (kinda like with geasa in general)?

QUOTE
you should stop the constant harping on how the Awakened ability to use geasa on magic lost to cyber makes them uberbadasses that ruin the game for everyone else

Feel free to point out where I've ever said that.

Whenever I bring up geasa, it's to point out what an adept can do, just like when I point out that a samurai can get his implant in a higher grade or as a used implant. I don't know how that twists around in your head to me harping on geasa explaining why some adept powers are overpowered. Because I have news for you -- it's those adept powers that I object to. With or without geasa, they're still unbalanced and/or prone to abuse.

QUOTE
so, yeah, lots of us kinda think that you view geasa as occasional hinderances that don't really slow adepts/mages down, especially when you say exactly that.

Then quote me. Find where I said exactly that. I have never said that they're not a hindrance or that they don't limit a character. The only thing I've ever said is that they don't limit them constantly. As in the whole ridiculous 50% guideline some people -- yourself included -- are/were stating.
Paco
I dont have SOTA64 yet, I have seen other posts about the social adept though. Any other munchkin concepts coming out of the book?
Kanada Ten
The animal adept has awesome potential as security; combined with a Rigger and they could be unstoppable. However, you can't start with most of what makes it powerful.

Animal Empathy + Attunement Animal + Empower Animal (Astral Perception, Killing Hands) and any perception enhancing powers. For a Magician's Way Adept add Living Focus and Aid Spell to those.
Siege
Eh.

Has anyone written up the "social cyberware" numbers yet?

For everyone terrified that adepts will dominate the game, we might as well level the playing field and let cyber-junkies have access to Shadowrun-esque plausible cybernetics that do, basically the same thing.

I suspect a lot of cybernetic enhancements would have been developed in the world of SR - the books only cover a tiny portion of what could be done.

-Siege
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Dashifen)
Then, he got wise to getting sick so investigated sterilize as a spell so that he could "clean" the meat before eating it.

The trick there being that Sterilize "cooks" the meat, thus not making it raw anymore.

The trick to geasea is that they're things a mage/adept do *voluntarily* to make up their magic. What you're doing basically is putting effort into focusing your willpower toward something you used to do instantly, without a thought. If you go too far out of your way to "get around" the limit, you're violating the spirit of the agreement you made with yourself. The player might be thinking of ways to "trick" the geas into being not obvious, but if the character is busily trying to find ways *around* the Geas he's not really dedicating himself to *following* the Geas, is he? In other words, he's deliverately choosing not to obey the geas, and then you get to ream him over by invoking the rule in the first paragraph of the upper right corner of MitS p. 33:

QUOTE ("emphasis mine")
The other way to remove a geas is to deliverately choose to no longer obey the geas. If the character possesses multiple geasea, he must give them all up at once. Giving up geasea means the character may no longer perform magic as if he still possessed the Magic Points offset by the geas--the lost Magic is truly gone, and [b]the character may never take another geas or initiate from that time on[/b.


So in, for example, the Talisman Geas, the Awakened character must be dedicating himself to this Talisman in some way. This I'd interpret to mean showing it off in some way, holding it out when using the geased power (if an active power), or wearing it clearly and conspicuously visible whenever the power is active (for a passive power), etc. Gestures must be something the Awakened character dedicates himself to: something obvious, deliberate, conspicuous, etc.
Dashifen
Oh my <insert deity here>! I think I'm going to make that into flash cards so I can hand it to players. I bow before your awesome reading comprehension skills smile.gif
Shockwave_IIc
Aye, The real meaning of the word Geas IMO
Ol' Scratch
Note that that revolves around voluntarily choosing to never obey the geas again. Breaking a geas or being unable to fulfill one are completely different than that and both of them come with their own penalties (such as a +1 TN on magical skills).

What Eyeless Blond is referring to is the only other means short of shedding a geas that a magician can do in order to permanently remove a geas. As he quoted, doing so is a really, really bad idea.

If you take it the way Blond is presenting it, anyone with a Fasting geas is on the road to being a burnout the first time they eat something.

EDIT: Here's an example. Say you're a dedicated Path Magician from Tir na n'Og who practiced magic there all your life. As the days rolled on you had to take a geas for one reason or another and, thinking life was good, you decided to take geasa that went along with your Path. The first one you took was a Time geas that limited you to casting only during half the year in which your Path has its strength, and your second Time geas limited you further to the single season in which you gain your bonus. Your third one is a Condition geas that only lets you cast magic while you're in your Path's county.

Now let's say that Something Bad happens and you find yourself a runner hiding out in Seattle. You have four choices. 1) Give up on magic altogether. 2) Continue using your magic even though you have to break all three of your geasa more often than not, thus giving you a +3 TN penalty on all of your Magic Skills. 3) Initiate three times to shed each of those geasa you took. And 4) voluntarily give up your geasa in the manner Eyeless Blond quoted, thus allowing you to work magic without any TN penalties (but at a reduced Magic).
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Dashifen)
Oh my <insert deity here>! I think I'm going to make that into flash cards so I can hand it to players. I bow before your awesome reading comprehension skills smile.gif

Heh, thanks. smile.gif The way I see it, a Geas are basically a deal you make with yourself in order to fuel your magic. The perspective the character should have isn't, "How can I get away with X?" it's closer to, "How can I do X bigger/better/more often?"

For example, I volunteer at a local Bingo parlor sometimes, and some of these ladies have the oddest habits, which they practice religiously, "for good luck." The rituals are ridiculous and decidedly arcane in many ways: one woman has over a dozen of those little troll dolls that she lines up all in a row, and pats each head before the start of a Bingo round; another will pray n a loud voice, hands raised to the heavens; another will go outside and chain smoke through a pack of cigarrettes.

Do these women try to hide these quirks, or even think of ways to make them seem more "natural"? Hell no! Exactly the opposite, in fact: each week troll woman would have yet another new doll in that line of hers; the prayer lady would have bracelets with bangles on them that jingled as she invoked the name of Jesus to help her win; the chain smoker would add more ciggarrettes each week and keep trying to bring them into the bingo parlor with her (Ugh I hated helping that woman; her whole area smelled like an ashtray. Bleagh.)

Basically, what I'm saying is that Geasea are things that the character dedicates himself to. *He* doesn't think of them as limitations at all; in fact they're helping him regain his lost potential, so he (and the player) should be thinking up ways to make them even *bigger*, *more* elaborate, not less.

27 trolls, all lined up in a row by color. Now THAT's a Talisman Geas. biggrin.gif
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
If you take it the way Blond is presenting it, anyone with a Fasting geas is on the road to being a burnout the first time they eat something.

Not so much. Take a look at my analogy above about the Bingo women. Now, I've never actually met any of these women outside of my volunteering duties, but I sincerely doubt that praying woman spends all day with her hands in the air and her head pointed skyward. You can put money on her doing it in that bingo parlor, but when she's not playing bingo she just doesn't need it. It's the same way with the Awakened. Unless you've got a mage or Adept who's *constantly* trying to pump up his powers you can bet he's not going to be pulling on that Geas all the time, but you can bet that when the chips are down that Gestures-geased mage isn't going to just settle for a little flick of the wrist.
toturi
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
The trick to geasea is that they're things a mage/adept do *voluntarily* to make up their magic. What you're doing basically is putting effort into focusing your willpower toward something you used to do instantly, without a thought. If you go too far out of your way to "get around" the limit, you're violating the spirit of the agreement you made with yourself. The player might be thinking of ways to "trick" the geas into being not obvious, but if the character is busily trying to find ways *around* the Geas he's not really dedicating himself to *following* the Geas, is he? In other words, he's deliverately choosing not to obey the geas, and then you get to ream him over by invoking the rule in the first paragraph of the upper right corner of MitS p. 33:

So in, for example, the Talisman Geas, the Awakened character must be dedicating himself to this Talisman in some way. This I'd interpret to mean showing it off in some way, holding it out when using the geased power (if an active power), or wearing it clearly and conspicuously visible whenever the power is active (for a passive power), etc. Gestures must be something the Awakened character dedicates himself to: something obvious, deliberate, conspicuous, etc.

THe player is deliberately finding ways to bypass the geas. Not the PC. All the PC is doing is getting into situations where the geas is moot. To invoke that rule the PC needs to actively break the geas or "choosing not to obey" the geas. A geas is not a geas until it is written down and done, therefore all the player needs to do is be creative when choosing the geas. After that if he is "choosing not to obey" the geas, he is on the way to burnout, but not before.

A Talisman needs to fulfill certain Canon criteria so no need to go there. What is a Gesture then? I submit that to be a Gesture geas there needs to be an expenditure of a Free action hence fulfilling the Canon description of Gesture.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Not so much. Take a look at my analogy above about the Bingo women.

smile.gif I was talking more about your quote than the other things you were talking about. You won't find me arguing about a magician and their geasa. It's the main reason why I love to give my characters geasa; they add so much color.
mrobviousjosh
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Because we all know that only 1% of Shadowrunners are awakened.

~J

Actually I believe it's only 3% of people in the world are awakened and of those 1% don't fully manifest as magicians or shamans. In any event, the reason I point out something so insignificant is that once you compound the numbers and realize there are people that aren't runners (like those who work for corps., tribes, themselves, etc.) the numbers are even lower since Shadowrunners already make up a pretty small percentage of the general population. (This statistic is from Magic in the Shadows BTW).
Eyeless Blond
No, it is in fact only 1% of the world who can use magic, in any form. P. 28.

As for toturi's comment about it being the players and not the characters avoiding the geas, to a point that's true. Before the character takes the geas, it's really not up the the character at all, but up to the player and the GM. Naturally the GM is going to discuss the nature of the geas with the player, and they're going to argue back and forth about the nature of the geas, what it entails, how it can be fufilled/broken, that sort of thing. Throughout this whole process there is no penalty to the player for wanting to argue about the extent or complexity of his geas. It's all part of the normal OOC disscussion, and doesn't really affect the character mechanically in any way, although if the player starts acting like a dick he might find that his character's chosen Talisman is a 3-foot tall stone wheel with a square hole in the middle filled with lead. biggrin.gif

Eventually (hopefully) the GM and the player will come to agreement as to how the geas works, and then it is applied. It is at this point that the geas stops being about the player and the GM, and starts being about the character. The character is the one fufilling (or not-fufilling, as the case may be) the geas, and thus the one who is choosing when and how hard to apply himself toward that geas. Just as magic is all about perspective, so is a geas all about perspective, specifically the character's perspective.

The brilliant thing about geasea is that, in this view, they are self-regulating. If he's finding the geas too easy to fufill, not requiring any sacrifice or hardship or even extra effort, then the character will recognize at some level that it's not a very good geas, and it will cease to be effective. Example:

Player: Okay, I've got my Toe Ring of Righteousness on, so that fufills my Talisman Geas again, so I can cast my Manabolt 6 and not take physical Drain.
[Note this is after some time with this Talisman Geas was taken, at least one full run and a few dozen castings. The GM has warned him that the character has been getting rather complacent about his Geas, and the player's been ignoring him. Time for a gentle reminder.]
GM: [rolls some dice] Unfortunately you seem to have broken your Geas. The Moderate wound you take punches you directly in the guts, opening a few random blood vessels and generally messing you up.
Player: WTF?! But I had the Toe Ring on! What gives?
GM: Well it seems the Toe Ring just hasn't been as effective as it used to be. Maybe you should think about putting a little more effort into your geas?

Of course this is very rough, and might be considered railroading if there isn't some amount of history leading up to it, but it's really no different than someone losing a point of magic because they pissed off their totem.
toturi
Actually Geasa are not self regulating as you say. Because once it is fixed (after OOC) eg. Talisman, it is the way Magic works to the PC. The PC cannot be breaking the geas in this case since if it was an unsuitable geas, he would never have been able to take it IC.

Following your logic, you could even say that fetish limited spells cannot be cast using a fetish because the fetish isn't as fetishy biggrin.gif as it used to be.
Kremlin KOA
GM"remember when the sammy heel stomped you"
Shaman"Ah drek."
Shaman considers getting new toe ring of righteousness
Eyeless Blond
I was just giving an option to those GMs who are stuck with players currently using Toe Rings of Righteousness as talismans. You're certainly free to ignore it, as this part I'm extrapolating from the rules rather than directly quoting and interpreting them.

The poine I was making is that, by the rules, geasea have little to nothing to do with the actual object that you're making a Talisman of, or the specific Gestures you're making. It's all about the meaning behind those objects or gestures or whatever: you are accepting a nontrivial limit on yourself in order to artificially boost your power back to what it was before you lost a chunk of it. What I'm getting at is, the limit must be nontrivial or it's not really a limit, and thus not a geas.

Extrapolating from there, I argue that if something a character is currently doing as a geas really isn't limiting him, then it's not really a geas. Geasea, as I see it, are inane, childish rules that an Awakened fence themselves around with. Fufilling them doesn't really seal some mystical pact with another creature that grants him/her the extra Magic point; rather it's the extra psychological power that you get when you challenge yourself and find yourself worthy of the challenge. So, if something's not a challenge anymore, or ceases to be a sacrifice, then it's no longer a geas and no longer works. Of course this should take quite some time before you actually get hammerred in-game, to allow the character time to figure out how to be more flambuoyant or whatever you need to rededicate yourself to the geas, but it should happen eventually if the guy insists on using a geas-that's-not-really-a-geas. smile.gif

Further, I argue that if a character is purposely undermining his geas, and doesn't heed multiple warnings about feeling like the geas isn't working as well as it has, etc, then you should invoke that last rule that says you give 'em all up. At that point you're not really trying to follow the geas, after all; you're actually trying to *not* follow the geas but still get credit for it. But really, think about who the character is trying to fool. Can you really trick your subconscious through such a stupid trick?
Fortune
If the GM agrees to the Talisman Geas in the first place, then by canon just being in possession of that particular Talisman (or a suitable replacement) is enough to fulfill the Geas ... no other ifs, ands, or buts about it. If he doesn't have it, the Geas is not fullfilled and he suffers ... if he has it, he can use his magic normally, as that is all that is required from that particular Geas.
toturi
Back on the topic, ladies and gentlemen. Have anyone considered how powerful a PC out of Chargen can be with bound Great Form Elementals?
Nikoli
Also, about the talisman, while the item itself is mundane, any person viewing it with astral perception (or possibly emotion sense) will see/feel a bright emotional connection between the awakened and their item. A competent mage (or vindictive) will see that as a potential advantage if they have time to plan. They could instruct the Designated Marksman to shoot the item (called shot for special effect) thus negating the geas until it can be reestablished.

And if you think any group that would capture you wouldn't make use of astral perception in the search, you're nuts.
Namer18
Just two quotes for the discussion first I think most people get the idea that gaesa should work half the time from page 32 of magic in the shadows where it discusses that if the gaesa is a condition it should be something that, "generally stops the gaesa half the time."
Second a rule I think lots of people forget is you can only have a number of gaesa equal to your willpower. pg 33 MITS "The maximum number of gaesa a character can take is equal to his unaugmented willpower attribute." Thus in the example dcotor Funkenstein had at the beginning you couldn't gaesa all of those powers since you have seven powers (assuming you count all the improved senses as one power) and a willpower of only 6. It also means that character could not gaesa any cybearwear until they raised their willpower.
Ol' Scratch
You can apply a single geas (foolish and lame as that may be) to multiple powers. The limitation is that you can't have more than (Willpower) geasa; thus it would only be a problem if you applied a completely different geas to each of those powers.
DrJest
QUOTE
You can apply a single geas (foolish and lame as that may be) to multiple powers. The limitation is that you can't have more than (Willpower) geasa; thus it would only be a problem if you applied a completely different geas to each of those powers.


That's one interpretation, certainly. I, on the other hand, would lean more towards the interpretation that each "application" of the geas to a different power is in fact a different geas; in other words, each power geased is one geas, irrespective of whether that geas is taken for another power as well (eg, you have a Talisman geas for your Improved Reflexes, you have a Talisman geas for your Sixth Sense... the same talisman may satisfy the requirements for both geasa, but they're still two geasa).
Ol' Scratch
Sure, you could interpret it that way if you like. But to do so, you have to ignore the written rules.

MitS p. 33, Adepts and Geasa: "...but a single geas can be applied to several powers."
DrJest
Bloody 3rd edition.

Mind you, that's still fairly amibguous; it leaves room for my interpretation. Certainly if you're concerned about geasing powers, it's a valid one.
Ol' Scratch
I dunno. Sounds pretty definitive to me. smile.gif
DrJest
Yes. But you could (at a pinch) interpret it.. well, to use the example:

Talisman (gold cross with inset sapphire and ivory Christ figure).

Improved Reflexes - Talisman Geas (for the above Talisman)

Improved Unarmed - Talisman Geas (ditto)

Sixth Sense - Talisman Geas (once more with feeling)

That could be said to be applying a single geas to 3 powers, yet it could also be said to be 3 instances of that single geas.

It's playing with words, but if you've got a player prone to abusing it then it's worth playing with those words.
Fortune
As usual, Doc is right ... at least as far as I am concerned. The downfall of linking all an Adept's Powers to one Geas is that he is pretty much FUBARed if he can't fullfil it. With different Geasa for each Power it is harder to lose all his abilities at once.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (DrJest)
It's playing with words, but if you've got a player prone to abusing it then it's worth playing with those words.

Nah, it's worth more to talk with them about it. This is a social game, not a compeition.
Kanada Ten
This post is to correct the last posted date, please disregard.
:vanish:
ialdabaoth
On the original track of this thread:

I wonder how many of you guys have pondered THIS form of munchkinism:

Create a Mental Adept. Max out his Intelligence, max out his Medicine, Biotech, and Cybernetics B/R skills. Give him Centering and Improved Ability on all his surgery skills. Give him an OBSCENE number of dice to roll when performing surgery, and allow him to Center vs. Penalties.

Now use all the SR Companion rules for cyber-implant surgery - especially the Essence/Bio Index reduction rules. You SHOULD be able to get up to a 95% Essence reduction per implant trivially.

Bonus points for the true munchkin: Attempt to argue with your GM that the Essence reduction successes apply linearly, not sequentially, so a 21-die success rate means 105% Essence reduction, thus GAINING your character 5% of the cyberware's Essence cost in Essence. Duck flying hardbound 3rd Ed. book and supplements.

Granted: he's not a munchkin, per se. He's a munchkin FACTORY. He MANUFACTURES munchkins, in BULK. Take all your other characters to him for implantation, and stack up 20+ Essence worth of cyberware AND 15+ Bio Index worth of bioware on each of your bad-asses. Give your Mage a Trauma Damper for free!
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