IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Running Jumps, Questions!
GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 9 2004, 06:36 PM
Post #1


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,754
Joined: 9-July 04
From: Modesto, CA
Member No.: 6,465



A player wants to make a new PC named "The Flea" that has CyberSkates, Hydraulic Jacks and a good Athletics skill for the pupose of making long jumps to attack opponents. With that threat in mind, I did some research:


Under Hydraulic Jacks (HJ) in MM:29 it mentions that each level provides an extra die for Athletics (Running) test as well as Athletics (Jumping) per SRComp:47. The HJ also provides +20% maximum jumping distance per HJ rating (+100% at Rating 5).

Per SRcomp:47 the max distance for a running jump is Quickness (Q=6 for this example) in meters. I assume you could also make an Athletics (4) Test to improve your Quickness for the purpose of a running jump, so with Athletics 6 + 5 for his HJ (and assuming 11 successes) I would have a modified Q of (6+11) or Q=17 for a running jump.

The runner now wants to make a running jump and his HJ:5 would boost that +100% so my adjusted max distance would be Qx2 or 34meters...wow!

Some other possibilities:
Q=6 (+11) x2 = 34m
Q=7 (+11) x2 = 36m
Q=8 (+11) x2 = 38m
Q=9 (+11) x2 = 40m
Q=10 (+11) x2 = 42m

The only other part that makes this more mind boggling is the runner also has CyberSkates that would ruther boost this running multiplier, but there is no provision (per cannon) to take into account the multiplier (which really determines how fast you are moving while running).

Not that I want some runner making 100meter jumps w/o a vehicle and a ramp involved, but isn't there something that should take into account your running speed (multiplier) for increasing jumping distance? Or have I made some incorrect assumptions?

Thanks for the feedback.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 9 2004, 07:10 PM
Post #2


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



There's no way in hell he'll actually manage to jump much more than 10-12 meters, though. Remember, you have to roll (Meters Jumped) on Athletics (Jumping), and the likelihood of rolling a 34, even if you have an obscene amount of dice, is pretty fucking slim.

Refer to this discussion. Mr Wabbit is not a legal starting character, though, because you'd need to initiate a few times to get Magic 6 while having all that ware.

Also, rolling Athletics to inrease running distance as per the Sprinting rules in SR3 or the Athletics - Running rules in SRComp would not increase your QUI for the purpose of determining maximum jumped distance. At least it would not in my world, and I'm pretty sure that's how the rules intend it to be. Notice how the Running section in src3.47 says the Athletics test only increases your effective QUI by 1 for that Combat Phase, and how the Jumping section on the same page mentions only "character's Quickness".

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Nov 9 2004, 07:19 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lorthazar
post Nov 9 2004, 07:15 PM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 485
Joined: 25-October 04
Member No.: 6,789



Easy, have the Jack reduce the target number 10% per level more realistic as the jack will help you jump those heights easily. need to jump 8 meters with a level 5 Hydraulic jack a TN of 4 please. While not canon it is definately more realistic and fun.

As for the speed multiplier just subtract 1/2 that number form the jump test if they have a running start.making the 8 meter jump a TN of 2 for the enhanced runner. Of course for the landing he might need some athletics rolls to stay standing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ol' Scratch
post Nov 9 2004, 07:28 PM
Post #4


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Validating
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,890



Maximum distance doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot. All those implants could boost his maximum jumping distance to ten miles and it wouldn't matter because your TN for the test would be 16,093. So while you could jump 16,093 meters, you're not even going to come close to jumping 16,093 meters.

But I do understand the problem you're having with these rules. They're fine for normal mundane characters in average situations, but completely break down when you start adding magic and technology into the mix.

A better mechanic for a running jump would be to use your desired distance as the target number, but divide (eww, I hate using division in game mechanics) the TN by your (Running Multiplier -2 to a minimum of 1). The maximum distance is still determined the same, but your ability to actually hit that maximum distance has increased quite a bit... especially for augmented characters.

Example 1: Joe Blow has Quickness 10, Hydraulic Jacks 5, and Athletics 6. He's an Satyr Ghoul with a Running Multiplier of x5. Joe's maximum running jump distance is 26 meters [(10 Quickness + 3 successes on average on the Running Test) + 100% from the Jacks], and he needs to jump 25 meters. His normal TN would be 25, but with this suggested alteration it would only be 8. Joe rolls his 11 dice (Athletics 6 +5 from his Jacks) and easily nails a single 8. Hooray, he just jumped 25 meters thanks to all his implants and high speed. Anyone with a Running Multipler of x3 or lower would still have a TN of 25 in the same situation.

Seems reasonable to me.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 9 2004, 07:31 PM
Post #5


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



I like that, I think that's a pretty good house rule overall. It does make increasing your Running Multiplier more important than increasing maximum jumping distance/QUI for most people who want to jump far, though.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ol' Scratch
post Nov 9 2004, 07:32 PM
Post #6


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Validating
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,890



Only in that it makes it easier to hit those maximum distances. If you want to actually go far, you need to be able to in the first place. :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 9 2004, 07:35 PM
Post #7


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,754
Joined: 9-July 04
From: Modesto, CA
Member No.: 6,465



Thanks for the feedback all, I think Doc Func is on the right track of what I am looking to curb or atleast get a handle on.

So what happens if you fail the Jumping test?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ol' Scratch
post Nov 9 2004, 07:37 PM
Post #8


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Validating
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,890



Look at the roll as an Open Test. The highest number they rolled was the distance they traveled. The use of a TN includes them trying to stop right at that distance, so they undermined their maximum potential... thus if they fail to hit it, they undermined it a little too much. :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 9 2004, 07:48 PM
Post #9


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



I actually meant for people who have already got particularly high QUIs and maybe boosts to their maximum jumping distance (Great Leap, Hydraulic Jacks). For example, Mr Wabbit from the Revised Jumping rules -thread I linked to would still not stand a very good chance of jumping much further than 30 meters -- until he gets himself Kid Stealth Cyberlegs, anyway.

But, now that I've thought more about it, it's an extremely marginal problem which is very unlikely to ever come up in a game, and is not necessarily even a bad thing to begin with.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Crimson Jack
post Nov 9 2004, 08:12 PM
Post #10


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,129
Joined: 11-June 03
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 4,712



QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
So what happens if you fail the Jumping test?

Road rash. :dead:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
RedmondLarry
post Nov 9 2004, 09:14 PM
Post #11


Senior GM
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,406
Joined: 12-April 03
From: Redmond, WA
Member No.: 4,442



I think sometimes you fail to land at your desired distance because you jumped too far. Watch the player's eyes when you give him that result. :eek:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 10 2004, 09:45 PM
Post #12


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,754
Joined: 9-July 04
From: Modesto, CA
Member No.: 6,465



QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Maximum distance doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot.  All those implants could boost his maximum jumping distance to ten miles and it wouldn't matter because your TN for the test would be 16,093.  So while you could jump 16,093 meters, you're not even going to come close to jumping 16,093 meters.

But I do understand the problem you're having with these rules.  They're fine for normal mundane characters in average situations, but completely break down when you start adding magic and technology into the mix.

A better mechanic for a running jump would be to use your desired distance as the target number, but divide (eww, I hate using division in game mechanics) the TN by your (Running Multiplier -2 to a minimum of 1).  The maximum distance is still determined the same, but your ability to actually hit that maximum distance has increased quite a bit... especially for augmented characters.

Example 1:  Joe Blow has Quickness 10, Hydraulic Jacks 5, and Athletics 6.  He's an Satyr Ghoul with a Running Multiplier of x5.  Joe's maximum running jump distance is 26 meters [(10 Quickness + 3 successes on average on the Running Test) + 100% from the Jacks], and he needs to jump 25 meters.  His normal TN would be 25, but with this suggested alteration it would only be 8.  Joe rolls his 11 dice (Athletics 6 +5 from his Jacks) and easily nails a single 8.  Hooray, he just jumped 25 meters thanks to all his implants and high speed.  Anyone with a Running Multipler of x3 or lower would still have a TN of 25 in the same situation.

Seems reasonable to me.

After talking to one of the others who GM's in our group as discussed the option Doc presented. The only reservation is it still allows for some crazy jumps with rather low TNs.

I think the route we are probably going to adopt is to grant a -1 TN bonus for each point of running over x3 to the TN for the running jump. This would allow the PC with the Cyberskates (x6 running) a -3 TN. This changes his 12 meter jump (max Quickness with his Hydraulic Jack 5) from TN=12 to TN=9. Also conisdering offering a -2 per multiplier point over x3, that would change his TN=12 to TN=6, but we have to talk about that more.

On a side note, this could also "fix" the fact that dwarfs only run at x2, and we might apply a +1TN for them considering they aren't running as fast to make the jump.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cable
post Nov 11 2004, 02:06 PM
Post #13


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 57
Joined: 16-September 04
Member No.: 6,670



Somehow, I read all of this...

JUST TAKE THE FREAKING STAIRS !!!

"So while you could jump 16,093 meters, you're not even going to come close to jumping 16,093 meters."

WHOA, TAKE THE BUS
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 25 2004, 12:03 AM
Post #14


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,754
Joined: 9-July 04
From: Modesto, CA
Member No.: 6,465



The running multiplier not being factored into Running-jump distance has been bugging me, so I've decided to apply some Physics to get a better idea of how far these jumps would be. Here's what I've got:

Vo = Initial Velocity (in m/s)

The axis velocity components:
Vx = Vo*cos(a)
Vy = Vo*sin(a)

[ Spoiler ]
Max_Distance, d = (Vo ^2 * sin(2*a)) / g
Travel_Time, t = (Vo * sin(a)) / g
Max_Height, h = (Vo^2 * sin^2(a)) / 2*g


A typical running-jump: Q=6, Vo=(6*3/3) = 6m/s, a=45.
[ Spoiler ]
d = 3.67m running-jump distance.
h = .918m max height of jump
t = .433 seconds from jump start to finish


Same running-jump as a Dwarf: Q=6, Vo=(6*2/3) = 4m/s, a=45.
[ Spoiler ]
d = 1.63m running-jump distance.
h = .408m max height of jump
t = .289 seconds from jump start to finish


CyberSkates in action: Q=6(10), Vo=(Q*6)/3= 20m/s, a=30.
[ Spoiler ]
d = 35.3m running-jump distance.
h = 5.1m max height of jump
t = 1.02 seconds from jump start to finish


It's harder to represent a standing jump using Quickness, I'd be more inclinded to use Strength, but either way: S=6, Vo=(S/3)=2m/s, a=90.
[ Spoiler ]
d = 0m running-jump distance.
h = .204m max height of jump
t = .204 seconds from jump start to finish


Problem with using a real-life approach would be making the jump wouldn't really be a test of skill as much as landing the jump. Since Vo for game purposes will equal Vt when landing I would think the TN should be based on the landing speed and conditions of the ground more that how high you jump.

Just some thoughts on a boring day-before-the-holiday at work.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cable
post Nov 25 2004, 01:26 AM
Post #15


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 57
Joined: 16-September 04
Member No.: 6,670



Again, I refer readers to my previous post.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 27th October 2020 - 04:05 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.