Powering down magic, Can it be done Options

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I'm one of the crowd that really likes to play up the cyberpunk aspects of Shadowrun. My problem is that in every game I've seen, someone's had a mage, and the GM's had to counter this mage, which means making magic heavy opposition. For the next game I run, I was thinking I want something where the decker actually has the most important role in the group, rather than most normal games where the mage is the only character whose role can't be worked around. The problem is that I don't just want to outright ban mages, so I'm trying to come up with some ways of making them more focused on things other than magic. My idea was to limit beginning magic points to 3, and then give some sort of compensation (I'm not sure what yet, probably a lower priority required for it). I was wondering if there's going to be any hideously unintended consequence that I've failed to see. As a quick aside, my group generally plays 2nd ed., so I'm not sure if that changes much. Basically, my goal is to be able, as a GM, to come up with runs that only occasionally have bad guy magicians, because I think it's "unrealistic" to assume that every group of people doing something shady is going to have magicians in their ranks. The problem I've run into in the past is that the PC magician always pulls something like using Clout on everyone, and almost nobody being able to resist without the aid of an initiated magician giving them spell defense dice, because an initiate usually has a crapload of dice to throw behind spells, and even the bad-ass bad guys don't generally have a very high willpower. The way I'm thinking a magic cap of 3 will work is that it will encourage mages to take up to 3 points of cyberware, and then they'll be casting a lot lower level spells around, so the bad guys will at least have a hope of resisting them on their own. Also, with any luck, it will encourage them to spend some karma learning to use their cyberware instead of sinking everything into sorcery, initiation, and spells. I know it might have the effect of just encouraging them to initiate as quickly and often as possible to get back up to the "normal" 6 magic, but I have no idea how likely this is. If anyone out there has a better sense of how this will shake out than I do, I'd appreciate any suggestions as to how else I could seriously rein in the power of magicians in my game and get to a point where I can have a warehouse of goons be an actual threat to the group without the goons being mages themselves.

[Kanada Ten]

In an earlier edition they had an option to decrease magic power levels that was simple and effective. Replace all Drain codes with Force and not Force divided by 2. The difference is astounding.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

Aw, great. I go off on a big long rant and within 10 minutes someone has a more sensible idea that can be summed up in one sentence.

Seriously though, thanks. That idea's so helpful I think I'll try it.

[Tanka]

You could always play up the enforcement of permits and force ratings.

They cast Stunball Force 6? Well, unless they're in space (in which case, how the frag are they casting at all?), law enforcement is going to hear about it. And then the Forensic Mages show up. Then find out it was <mage in your group>. Then come knocking on his door.

It either makes them take lower Force spells and register all their Magic, effectively making it a lot more difficult to do anything stealthily. (Stealth can include Cleansing for the sake of not being discovered after the fact. Higher the Force, higher the TN, IIRC.)

[Kagetenshi]

Reduce the cost to play a mage, use the full Force for drain, have astral projection do damage over time in addition to the essence limitation, have spirits go rogue on Shamans, have Elementals be a downright force of will to keep in check...

Make magic less friendly, basically. That'll work nicely for powering the stuff down, and IMO add to the flavour.

~J

[Tanka]

Background count, background count, background count.

Let him try to summon even a Force 3 Watcher when he has to roll 5s with a mere Conjuring 6.

[GrinderTheTroll]

Wow are mages that over powering in your game? I know they can be troublesome at times, but unless they've got some game-breaking set-up (hopefully not at chargen ;)) then there shouldn't be a need to "counter" them.

I will admit, they do add an extra element of unknown, but I try and think about how much the world would differ with magic being a big part of it and also consider that these are "professional" Shadowrunners and have skills, abilities and gear to back up what's expected of them.

Some great suggestions already consider SR2 that had some good ideas about making magic more/less powerful.

[DrJest]

You're trying to tell me a warehouse full of goons isn't a threat to a mage anyway? Sorry, but I just don't buy that. Sure the mage can cast a fireball or whatever. Or the samurai could throw a couple grenades, or hose the place down with automatic fire. Same difference, really. The mage gets to slip past most armour, at the price of fatiguing himself and taking higher target numbers. Seems like a fair trade, especially since basic manaphobia means the guy casting spells is the first target for every goon with a gun in the immediate vicinity.

I'm getting a little tired of the "mages are too uber" attitude I've been seeing lately. If the only way you can challenge a mage is with another mage, you seriously need to rethink your tactics.

Example: the warehouse full of goons. Unless there's a really good reason for it, don't cluster them. That way even an initiated mage won't get more than two or three in a single spell. Use the environment - warehouses have stuff in them, which limits line of sight; you can't zap what you can't see, of course. Pop-up tactics (pop out, fire, pop back) work wonders against mages. Remember that a warehouse is a three-dimensional environment; many of them have catwalks towards the ceiling, where a couple of guys with cheap black-market assault rifles can have a field day shooting down whilst maintaining good cover. Or heck, dropping a couple of grenades over the side whilst remaining completely out of sight, if it's reasonable for them to have that kind of firepower.

With higher tech options you get even more ways to screw over any runner's day, including - or especially - mages. Flashpaks are cheap and reusable, and will make a mess of a mage's vision. Noisemakers will pile on the distraction modifiers, and can come in a range of levels to suit most degrees of tech. Really high-tech bad guys may well have drones (in a warehouse, the Ares Sentinel line is fantastic - just run rails across the warehouse every ten metres or so and there's almost nowhere they can't see).

Magic is a reality in Shadowrun, and that being the case it is something that everybody will plan for when setting up their defences. Given the huge amount of information available via the Matrix, anyone with an interest can get a vague idea of how to screw mages.

Just don't fall into the trap of assuming that you have to have a mage to counter a mage. It's not true.

[Kagetenshi]

Problem with your approach: unless there are geasa involved, there's no reason to know that a given person is the spellcaster. Unless elemental manipulations are being thrown, it's even probable that a side may not realize there's magic involved. A simple Improved Invisibility will render most opposition incapable of seeing the mage; Levitate gives them options for attack directions that may not even occur to most mundane opposition, and that will hamper even the most highly trained. A simple pistol to shoot the noisemakers works too, and if there aren't distraction TNs for other tasks, why would there be for magic either? Basically, the only suggestion there that really works is the drone.

There are a lot of ways to counter a mage without one, but they generally involve one of the following:

1) Vehicles/drones
2) Knowing there's a mage coming and who and where they are
3) Paracritters/FAB.

~J

[mfb]

actually, anyone viewing the mage has a chance to note that a magical effect is taking place, even if there are no visible cues (geasa, elemental effect, whatever). SR3 page 162 gives a TN of 4 +(caster's magic) -(force of effect) to notice that someone is using a magical skill.

[Kagetenshi]

That's true. It doesn't help much, though.

~J

[mfb]

bah, finding the mage is easy. it's the one dancing around 'skyclad' with feathers in their hair.

[DrJest]

Ding.

Decently aware opponents will identify the mage with reasonable speed. But it may not be necessary. A street gang might not work out which one of the runners is the mage, but a flashpak into the group is going to make life awkward for all of them. The tactics I mentioned above are all broad-application, and rarely require actual targeting (a noisemaker doesn't need to know which one of the runners in range is the mage to screw them up). Oh, on the noisemaker thing - as a GM I assume that magic, being an effort of will, requires fairly intense concentration to perform, making it susceptible to distraction, but YMMV.

My point is that only idiot opponents stand around in groups where a single spell - or grenade, or autofire burst - can take them out. Play opponents with even basic street-level tactical smarts and the mage is little or no more effective than his compatriots.

[Kagetenshi]

I would say that it is just as prone to distraction modifiers as aiming a gun or similar.

Again, Improved Invisibility and/or Levitate.

~J

[Cray74]

[Signal]

I'm glad you guys are having this discussion. As a new GM, I've been trying to find a bunch of non-magical ways to counter mages that are generally widely available to the kind of people who would want to put a stop to a runner's plans. I realize that in the world of Shadowrun, 90% of the world's populace is non-Awakened or non-cybered, so to reflect this I've been trying to figure out effective "mundane" NPCs that can still put up a good fight despite lack of cyberware and magic. I think I'm doing fairly well countering the samurai's with non-cybered goons (large numbers of assault rifles with recoil compensation are a big help with this), but I know there are some tricks I'm missing when it comes to giving the mages a challenge.

Like for example, what if a mage is fond of summoning Force 6 spirits/elementals?

[Kanada Ten]

[DrJest]

Okay, let's look at those.

Improved Invisibility. It's good, but the +2 TN for sustaining screws further successes badly, and anyone with thermo vision - trolls, dwarves - can see you anyway (unless that changed in 3rd Ed as well). Amusing Moments I Have GM'd - the invisible mage sneaking carefully through the maze of off-duty Lone Star coppers as he made his way to the evidence locker. Beautiful to watch. Got there and the dwarf copper on duty cold-cocked him with a tire iron.

Levitate, well, first off you've got the +2TN for sustaining again, and this time you are so the most obvious mage in existence. Every gunbunny in the fight is going to be shooting at you the moment you reveal your existence. You'll get one free shot, sure, but you're less likely to make it count and after that you're flying Swiss cheese :)

[Kanada Ten]

[DrJest]

[DrJest]

[Kanada Ten]

The case is heavy against since the FAQ states such, Man and Machine's entry of the thrmosense organ, and those metahumans with Thermographic vision are listed as having that as their normal (or is it natural?) vision. Besides which one could simply create a spell with the exact same effects by replacing the words normal vision with all vision (single sense) and have the same drain, TN and so on of Invisibility.

[edit] ...I can edit but not add...

[Conskill]

[Tanka]

The only problem with "geek the mage" is when they have spirits. Especially high-Force ones that like to go free and wreak havoc.

[John Campbell]

I'm going to skip all the "Mages are über!/No, there are easy mundane ways to counter mages!" debate, and just suggest this:

If you want to run a game where the PCs have little to no magical support, have you tried just asking your players to make mundane characters for this particular game?