I'm one of the crowd that really likes to play up the cyberpunk aspects of Shadowrun. My problem is that in every game I've seen, someone's had a mage, and the GM's had to counter this mage, which means making magic heavy opposition. For the next game I run, I was thinking I want something where the decker actually has the most important role in the group, rather than most normal games where the mage is the only character whose role can't be worked around. The problem is that I don't just want to outright ban mages, so I'm trying to come up with some ways of making them more focused on things other than magic. My idea was to limit beginning magic points to 3, and then give some sort of compensation (I'm not sure what yet, probably a lower priority required for it). I was wondering if there's going to be any hideously unintended consequence that I've failed to see. As a quick aside, my group generally plays 2nd ed., so I'm not sure if that changes much. Basically, my goal is to be able, as a GM, to come up with runs that only occasionally have bad guy magicians, because I think it's "unrealistic" to assume that every group of people doing something shady is going to have magicians in their ranks. The problem I've run into in the past is that the PC magician always pulls something like using Clout on everyone, and almost nobody being able to resist without the aid of an initiated magician giving them spell defense dice, because an initiate usually has a crapload of dice to throw behind spells, and even the bad-ass bad guys don't generally have a very high willpower. The way I'm thinking a magic cap of 3 will work is that it will encourage mages to take up to 3 points of cyberware, and then they'll be casting a lot lower level spells around, so the bad guys will at least have a hope of resisting them on their own. Also, with any luck, it will encourage them to spend some karma learning to use their cyberware instead of sinking everything into sorcery, initiation, and spells. I know it might have the effect of just encouraging them to initiate as quickly and often as possible to get back up to the "normal" 6 magic, but I have no idea how likely this is. If anyone out there has a better sense of how this will shake out than I do, I'd appreciate any suggestions as to how else I could seriously rein in the power of magicians in my game and get to a point where I can have a warehouse of goons be an actual threat to the group without the goons being mages themselves.

In an earlier edition they had an option to decrease magic power levels that was simple and effective. Replace all Drain codes with Force and not Force divided by 2. The difference is astounding.

Aw, great. I go off on a big long rant and within 10 minutes someone has a more sensible idea that can be summed up in one sentence.

Seriously though, thanks. That idea's so helpful I think I'll try it.

You could always play up the enforcement of permits and force ratings.

They cast Stunball Force 6? Well, unless they're in space (in which case, how the frag are they casting at all?), law enforcement is going to hear about it. And then the Forensic Mages show up. Then find out it was <mage in your group>. Then come knocking on his door.

It either makes them take lower Force spells and register all their Magic, effectively making it a lot more difficult to do anything stealthily. (Stealth can include Cleansing for the sake of not being discovered after the fact. Higher the Force, higher the TN, IIRC.)

Reduce the cost to play a mage, use the full Force for drain, have astral projection do damage over time in addition to the essence limitation, have spirits go rogue on Shamans, have Elementals be a downright force of will to keep in check...

Make magic less friendly, basically. That'll work nicely for powering the stuff down, and IMO add to the flavour.

~J

Background count, background count, background count.

Let him try to summon even a Force 3 Watcher when he has to roll 5s with a mere Conjuring 6.

Wow are mages that over powering in your game? I know they can be troublesome at times, but unless they've got some game-breaking set-up (hopefully not at chargen ) then there shouldn't be a need to "counter" them.

I will admit, they do add an extra element of unknown, but I try and think about how much the world would differ with magic being a big part of it and also consider that these are "professional" Shadowrunners and have skills, abilities and gear to back up what's expected of them.

Some great suggestions already consider SR2 that had some good ideas about making magic more/less powerful.

You're trying to tell me a warehouse full of goons isn't a threat to a mage anyway? Sorry, but I just don't buy that. Sure the mage can cast a fireball or whatever. Or the samurai could throw a couple grenades, or hose the place down with automatic fire. Same difference, really. The mage gets to slip past most armour, at the price of fatiguing himself and taking higher target numbers. Seems like a fair trade, especially since basic manaphobia means the guy casting spells is the first target for every goon with a gun in the immediate vicinity.

I'm getting a little tired of the "mages are too uber" attitude I've been seeing lately. If the only way you can challenge a mage is with another mage, you seriously need to rethink your tactics.

Example: the warehouse full of goons. Unless there's a really good reason for it, don't cluster them. That way even an initiated mage won't get more than two or three in a single spell. Use the environment - warehouses have stuff in them, which limits line of sight; you can't zap what you can't see, of course. Pop-up tactics (pop out, fire, pop back) work wonders against mages. Remember that a warehouse is a three-dimensional environment; many of them have catwalks towards the ceiling, where a couple of guys with cheap black-market assault rifles can have a field day shooting down whilst maintaining good cover. Or heck, dropping a couple of grenades over the side whilst remaining completely out of sight, if it's reasonable for them to have that kind of firepower.

With higher tech options you get even more ways to screw over any runner's day, including - or especially - mages. Flashpaks are cheap and reusable, and will make a mess of a mage's vision. Noisemakers will pile on the distraction modifiers, and can come in a range of levels to suit most degrees of tech. Really high-tech bad guys may well have drones (in a warehouse, the Ares Sentinel line is fantastic - just run rails across the warehouse every ten metres or so and there's almost nowhere they can't see).

Magic is a reality in Shadowrun, and that being the case it is something that everybody will plan for when setting up their defences. Given the huge amount of information available via the Matrix, anyone with an interest can get a vague idea of how to screw mages.

Just don't fall into the trap of assuming that you have to have a mage to counter a mage. It's not true.

Problem with your approach: unless there are geasa involved, there's no reason to know that a given person is the spellcaster. Unless elemental manipulations are being thrown, it's even probable that a side may not realize there's magic involved. A simple Improved Invisibility will render most opposition incapable of seeing the mage; Levitate gives them options for attack directions that may not even occur to most mundane opposition, and that will hamper even the most highly trained. A simple pistol to shoot the noisemakers works too, and if there aren't distraction TNs for other tasks, why would there be for magic either? Basically, the only suggestion there that really works is the drone.

There are a lot of ways to counter a mage without one, but they generally involve one of the following:

1) Vehicles/drones
2) Knowing there's a mage coming and who and where they are
3) Paracritters/FAB.

~J

actually, anyone viewing the mage has a chance to note that a magical effect is taking place, even if there are no visible cues (geasa, elemental effect, whatever). SR3 page 162 gives a TN of 4 +(caster's magic) -(force of effect) to notice that someone is using a magical skill.

That's true. It doesn't help much, though.

~J

bah, finding the mage is easy. it's the one dancing around 'skyclad' with feathers in their hair.

Ding.

Decently aware opponents will identify the mage with reasonable speed. But it may not be necessary. A street gang might not work out which one of the runners is the mage, but a flashpak into the group is going to make life awkward for all of them. The tactics I mentioned above are all broad-application, and rarely require actual targeting (a noisemaker doesn't need to know which one of the runners in range is the mage to screw them up). Oh, on the noisemaker thing - as a GM I assume that magic, being an effort of will, requires fairly intense concentration to perform, making it susceptible to distraction, but YMMV.

My point is that only idiot opponents stand around in groups where a single spell - or grenade, or autofire burst - can take them out. Play opponents with even basic street-level tactical smarts and the mage is little or no more effective than his compatriots.

I would say that it is just as prone to distraction modifiers as aiming a gun or similar.

Again, Improved Invisibility and/or Levitate.

~J

I'm glad you guys are having this discussion. As a new GM, I've been trying to find a bunch of non-magical ways to counter mages that are generally widely available to the kind of people who would want to put a stop to a runner's plans. I realize that in the world of Shadowrun, 90% of the world's populace is non-Awakened or non-cybered, so to reflect this I've been trying to figure out effective "mundane" NPCs that can still put up a good fight despite lack of cyberware and magic. I think I'm doing fairly well countering the samurai's with non-cybered goons (large numbers of assault rifles with recoil compensation are a big help with this), but I know there are some tricks I'm missing when it comes to giving the mages a challenge.

Like for example, what if a mage is fond of summoning Force 6 spirits/elementals?

Okay, let's look at those.

Improved Invisibility. It's good, but the +2 TN for sustaining screws further successes badly, and anyone with thermo vision - trolls, dwarves - can see you anyway (unless that changed in 3rd Ed as well). Amusing Moments I Have GM'd - the invisible mage sneaking carefully through the maze of off-duty Lone Star coppers as he made his way to the evidence locker. Beautiful to watch. Got there and the dwarf copper on duty cold-cocked him with a tire iron.

Levitate, well, first off you've got the +2TN for sustaining again, and this time you are so the most obvious mage in existence. Every gunbunny in the fight is going to be shooting at you the moment you reveal your existence. You'll get one free shot, sure, but you're less likely to make it count and after that you're flying Swiss cheese

The case is heavy against since the FAQ states such, Man and Machine's entry of the thrmosense organ, and those metahumans with Thermographic vision are listed as having that as their normal (or is it natural?) vision. Besides which one could simply create a spell with the exact same effects by replacing the words normal vision with all vision (single sense) and have the same drain, TN and so on of Invisibility.

[edit] ...I can edit but not add...

The only problem with "geek the mage" is when they have spirits. Especially high-Force ones that like to go free and wreak havoc.

I'm going to skip all the "Mages are über!/No, there are easy mundane ways to counter mages!" debate, and just suggest this:

If you want to run a game where the PCs have little to no magical support, have you tried just asking your players to make mundane characters for this particular game?

Dude, that'd just be way too easy...

If you're using points, increase the cost for magic by 5 points. Full mages now cost 35, Adepts and Aspected now cost 30. When combined with the full force for drain rule, mages will be much less powerful than before.

This has been discussed a number of times. Basically, when you get into force 10+ spells, you end up with target numbers of 20+ to learn those spells. Each failed attempt to learn a spell takes a number of days equal to the force, and it can take many, many, many attempts to actually succeed. Hence months or even years.

Ah...gotchya.
Thanks, sorry for bringing up old hat.

Not a problem. The search function hates me, so I can understand any reluctance to put it to use.

YAY! The old forums are available again! Sweet!

Edit: Heh, I still love the fact that no one ever bothered to check my math. Also, Sphynx's first comment on page 2 of that thread was particularly amusing. Ahh, memories.

Sphynx's reply is etched in my mind.

I don't think there is so much of a problem with magic, as far as game balance is concerned...as for flavor, that's another story.
As someone said, we've played for years with the good old 1st ed rule saying that TN for Drain is the Force of the spell instead of Force/2.
Another way of toning things down is:

Breaking the (IMHO) illogical rule saying that Drain tests should not suffer from Wound modifiers. That's what we've been doing for years: so your PC mage is going to think twice before tossing heavy spells since drain is going to be harder and harder to handle. this snowball effect tends to lead magician to use magic sparingly and not as an universal substitute to more mundane solutions.

If you really want to curb the level of magic activity in your game you can couple this rule with the above -mentioned rule of drain TN indexed on the full Force of the spell instead of 1/2 Force. That should temper your mages and shamans...

Finally don't forget that Magic's been around for more than 50 years now. A lot of things are made with considering this factor in the equation: the majority of cars are equiped with opaque windows, I have decided that Lone Star CN-Patrol 1 don't have any windows at all, they rely on cameras and sensors, to make them more magic-proof, buildings could have the same kind of tricks.
Add security contract with "magic" panic button to call a mage or elemental (as someone said), biofober and FAB..and you've got a lot of tricks in your bag to make life a little bit more difficult for magic wielding people...

not sure what your problem is with mages in general, I have always found that after a few runs sammies are able to put people down faster <mages are far stealthier though>, this unless your players dont hunt for the harder to get weapons/ammo... apds loaded assault rifle beats any damage spell any day of the week.
little tricks like invisibility get into problems with everyday items.. example: megamage with impr invis 10 goes into corp.. gets somehow through security unseen.. then tries to go upstairs..
ok he cannot call the elevator..might alert guards.. hmm.. stairs.. 12 floors up.. winded mage sees then an automatic door, no security, just type every mall & office has.. opens if it detects someone nearby. oops.. will he drop invisibility right there before the cameras? will he wait God knows how long until someone comes by so he can try to sneak through?
invis in a combat: +2 tn is a killer.. & suppression fire will get you. if invisibility bothers you so much simply dont preroll it ask the mage only to roll it when someone looks at him.. every turn any one/group looks at him.. that makes it riskier. & gets rid of the old 2nd edition abuse of putting maxed pool & karma- rerolled impr invis on a lock to be used at will..
other than that the only thing that could bother you is astral scouting.. make FAB cheaper in your game if you want to get rid of that.. or build the really important stuff underground..
DS

It's group related guys.
He's saying that, in his group, he would like to see something other than mages because they have dominated (in one form or another) the play.

That's not a rule problem really. That's a group problem.
He's trying to find a way to encourage the players to choose other character types as well as still allow them to be a mage but not let them get up to normal par so quickly.
The reason he doesn't want them up to par so fast isn't because they are broke, it's because he doesn't want them dominating the game again.
So if they move slow, then by the time they reach high levels everyone else will be pretty filled up with their characters and the hope is that things will balance out in the power of the characters in his group.

That's what he was basically getting at as far as I saw it.
Not that he thought that they were broken.

The easiest method I've found to deal with mages is to use the SR2 Initiative rules (to show how much attention I pay, I wasn't aware SR3 has a different Initiative system until about six weeks ago). They lose none of their power, but the fact that a moderately cybered goon is going to get one, maybe two passes before them and a high-wired samurai perhaps up to four or five means they have to think about their actions. That and not reducing their actual power gives the opposition a legitimate reason to geek the mage first- assuming they can identify him and get in range (a mage's best friend is his pair of optical binoculars).

-JH.

One thing I experimented with a long time ago was changing Drain to the full Force of the spell, but also applying the Drain Power modifier to the Force of the spell to determine if the Drain would be Physical or Stun.

For example, casting Improved Invisibility [(F+1)M Drain] at Force 6 resulted in an effective Drain Power of 7; thus if your Magic Attribute was only 6 your Drain was Physical.

Not only did this increase the amount of Drain that occured during the game, but it also curbed the Force and Damage Level (since if it takes the Drain Level over Deadly, each Drain Level adds +2 to the Drain Power) of many damaging spells to a level that made it easier for enemies to resist them. Even though Stunbolt and Stunball were both still powerful under those rules, the full Force Drain rule helped limit their Drain Levels nonetheless.

Both rules also helped encourage the use of fetishes, and in my book that's a very good thing. It makes spellcasting a bit easier to notice and adds more opportunities for cool spellcasting descriptions from the players.

And possibly making it more powerful and hating you if it happened to like that mage.

However, most of our group is mages, so we just take care of the hopped-up Sammie first then round up the mage for a bit of painful interrogation.

Sorry to drag this up. It keeps showing on my View New Posts display. I am seeing if I can get it to quit.

It did not work, so no use trying this tactic.

Mages are not overpowered. They just take special handling. No need to tamper with the rules of it.

We were on a "Take and Hold" mission at an undercover warehouse in the Barrens. The local gang gave our mage some hoots and cussing while he was walking over..

He turns and fries them. Meanwhile, our sniper, in the house, quickly pick off the survivors with her rifle.

We all knew we were in trouble, cuz the fragging signature wouldn't fade for hours. We hid while LS did their investigation, and, as I recall, had to fake a story for the Star.

Fortunately, noone lived who saw, or were too scared of LS to come out and talk of it. Mage got his signature registered though. He'll be traceable by them from now on.

One thing I really dislike are the spirits. Having some weird monster wail on you, and ignore pistols and even shotguns.. thats just scary business. Atleast the IC the Decker goes up against, won't come out and kill off anyone who don't know their computers.

Ruthenium costs a fortune, Invisibility is almost stable for most wizards. Add Movement Power, and maybe Concealment.. and the mage is quickly the most versatile member of any group.

So, yes, if you want a lower powered campaign, and make enemy mages something to be feared, just rule everyone make mundanes. (Actually I really like playing a mundane) - But if magic is allowed, then be certain to grant as much cash as you do Karma, or your Sams are gonna be crying brave tears while the mages take on their roles.