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Powering down magic, Can it be done

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LinaInverse

Jul 6 2005, 05:09 PM

Post #51

Moving Target

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QUOTE (tanka)

You could always play up the enforcement of permits and force ratings.

They cast Stunball Force 6? Well, unless they're in space (in which case, how the frag are they casting at all?), law enforcement is going to hear about it. And then the Forensic Mages show up. Then find out it was <mage in your group>. Then come knocking on his door.

While valid, this just won't affect magic. Stunball 6 is illegal, true. So are most of the cyber/bioware (ie, Wired Reflexes, SL2, Titanium Bone Lacing) most non-Awakened have, along with every weapon in the book heavier than a Hold-Out. How about your Sammy firing his APDS or EX rounds? Are your forensic teams going to find those shells, while they're busy snooping for Astral signatures?

If you're going to enforce Legality, and bring in Forensic teams to dig up evidence against your groups, then you have to do it across the board, or you're just shafting your mages while giving your sammys a free pass.

QUOTE (tanka)

It either makes them take lower Force spells and register all their Magic, effectively making it a lot more difficult to do anything stealthily. (Stealth can include Cleansing for the sake of not being discovered after the fact. Higher the Force, higher the TN, IIRC.)

Does having legality make your sammys not use any HvyPistols, Assault Rifles, etc? Do your sammys have issues getting through metal detectors (as well most should)? The tone of your game (high combat vs high stealth) and the level of opposition they face (ie, street gangers vs elite military troops) is really what's going to determine what your group arms itself with, not legality. If you're constantly sending the best-of-the-best opposition against your group (and their stealth efforts are consistently foiled from bypassing combat), then it's unreasonable for you as a GM to expect your group to only use "Legal" (ie, ineffectual) force against your NPCs.

weblife View Member Profile	Jul 6 2005, 05:27 PM Post #52
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318	Yup, but noone had cleanse, and hostile gangers got to the site within minutes. They heard the shooting of their buds, but didn't see where we hid.

Apathy View Member Profile	Jul 6 2005, 06:25 PM Post #53
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046	Responses to magic-heavy teams (or just teams that need to balance the magic user out) within the rules, and without counter-magic: Enforce visibility modifiers. Darkness, smoke, partial cover, etc all make the target harder to hit. All but the first one also apply to those astrally percieving. Enforce background count. Any location with multiple deaths and/or intense emotions (e.g. combat) gets at least a plus one. Dense throngs of people, sterile repressed environments, and heavy pollution all make it harder to cast successfully. Wound modifiers. Liberal use of gas grenades, concussion grenades, etc. can really ruin your day if you don't have enough body dice to stage the damage down. Critters. They don't even have to be paranormal - Dogs are cheap enough to get in large numbers and their sense of smell will defeat any silence and/or invisibility spells you come up with. Enforce rules for astral signatures. By the time spells start flying, runners often don't have the time needed to cleanse the area before they leave. Drones. The TNs for attacking drones is just insane. Cheap counter-magic any shop would have access to (should be available to most security companies): Roving watchers shadowing the main gate and/or patrolling randomly. Wards all over the place. Even low force ones force the mage to turn off foci, etc.

tisoz

Jul 6 2005, 10:52 PM

Post #54

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QUOTE (weblife)

Yup, but noone had cleanse, and hostile gangers got to the site within minutes. They heard the shooting of their buds, but didn't see where we hid.

It only takes the skill they used to perform the magic; they had what they needed to erase the sig..

Critias View Member Profile	Jul 7 2005, 05:52 AM Post #55
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	Apparently not.

toturi View Member Profile	Jul 7 2005, 07:19 AM Post #56
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187	They needed the skill used to perform the magic and astral perception. As long as the person casting the spell was not a Magician Adept, then it should be real easy.

Nebuchadnezzar View Member Profile	Jul 8 2005, 02:33 AM Post #57
Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 28-June 05 Member No.: 7,472	I think the best suggestion here was to ask the players to play mundanes. In my experience at least, drones don't work well against mages. I'd just use Levitate to trun them sideways (Oh Noes! The gun isn't designed to fire at stuff underneath it!) while somebody gutted the thing's soft underbelly.

toturi

Jul 8 2005, 04:37 AM

Post #58

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QUOTE (Nebuchadnezzar)

I think the best suggestion here was to ask the players to play mundanes.

In my experience at least, drones don't work well against mages. I'd just use Levitate to trun them sideways (Oh Noes! The gun isn't designed to fire at stuff underneath it!) while somebody gutted the thing's soft underbelly.

Drones work superbly against mages.

QUOTE (SR3 p150)

Spells cast against vehicles have a target number based on their Object Resistance (see p. 182) of 8 plus their Body Rating plus half their Armor Rating (round down). (Note that elemental manipulation spells are treated as a Ranged Attack and have their usual base Target Number 4.)

QUOTE (SR3 Errata)

The Force of the spell must be equal to or greater than half the Object Resistance, rounded down, for it to affect an object. Vehicles add Body and half armor to object resistance before dividing in half.

So unless you got a big ass Levitate, maybe you are playing by a house rule you haven't told us. Besides, Armour is Armour whether right side up or upside down.

Nebuchadnezzar View Member Profile	Jul 8 2005, 04:52 AM Post #59
Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 28-June 05 Member No.: 7,472	If I remember correctly, the TN for levitate is based on the object's weight, not how durable it is.

Cain View Member Profile	Jul 8 2005, 05:30 AM Post #60
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178	Yes, but armored drones are very heavy. You still need a high-force Levitate to really affect them much.

Herald of Verjig... Herald of Verjigorm View Member Profile	Jul 8 2005, 06:04 AM Post #61
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017	Body 1 drone with 12 armor (aka, a metal lump with mobility): 60 kg of armor, with a total weight of 75 or less (according to chart on Rigger 3 62). Yes, I know a small methane UAV rotodrone can have a maximum load of 100 with only a body of 1, but the chart doesn't say that those are the weight ranges of an empty chassis, just the ranges for vehicles with those body ratings. Even if you read it the other way, it's only a TN 5 to levitate this extremely armored drone.

toturi

Jul 8 2005, 06:14 AM

Post #62

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QUOTE (Nebuchadnezzar)

If I remember correctly, the TN for levitate is based on the object's weight, not how durable it is.

TN for a normal "object" is 4 + 1 per 100kg. However, if the target is also a vehicle (as a drone is), you need also apply the special rules governing vehicles. You cannot simply acknowledge one rule and ignore another that does not suit you. You may house rule it however.

ShadowGhost

Jul 8 2005, 06:59 AM

Post #63

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QUOTE (toturi)

You cannot simply acknowledge one rule and ignore another that does not suit you. You may house rule it however.

And yet, MITS says the TN for vehicle Mask is 4. Period. Nada about OR, Body, or armor.

You may want to call it a houserule, but we only use the "Spells cast against vehicles have a target number based on their Object Resistance (see p. 182) of 8 plus their Body Rating plus half their Armor Rating (round down)." when a spell causes a physical change - combat spell, Fix, Wreck, etc.

Mask, Invisibility, Levitate do not cause any "Physical" change. Levitate may change the position of the vehicle or drone, but it doesn't change it's physical state.

Another way of looking at is that all you need is a digital watch [Highly Processed Objects (Computers, Complex Toxic Wastes] = OR of 10+.

Embed that in a knife... it goes through Physical Barriers, Armor Spells etc. causing them all to fail.

Invisible Mage? Fill shotgun shells with shredded RAM. Use wide spread choke. Blind Fire. One piece sticks to mage, spell fails.

I'm all for the rule of "pells cast against vehicles have a target number based on their Object Resistance (see p. 182) of 8 plus their Body Rating plus half their Armor Rating" for anything that causes damage, or fixes drones/vehicles etc.

But if it's a fixed TN like levitate, Vehicle Mask, Invisibility, etc, we leave it at that fixed TN

toturi View Member Profile	Jul 8 2005, 02:05 PM Post #64
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187	The TN for Vehicle Mask is 4. But when it is actually cast on a vehicle, the TN is something else. Invisible mage stuck with one piece? So? The invisible mage is still invisible, the one piece just comes along for the ride. It is magic. Just like the TN for an invisibility spell on a decker with a deck is the same as that for the mage. It is magic.

Dawnshadow

Jul 8 2005, 02:40 PM

Post #65

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QUOTE (SR3 @ p182)

Consult the Object Resistance Table for examples of objects and materials.

Other spells have specific target numbers; see the individual spell descriptions.

I'm lazy, I'm not typing out the entire paragraph. The part above object resistance is vehicles -- and spells that target attributes, or are modified by attributes. From reading that (which isn't changed in the Errata), it is clear that individual spell descriptions which list a static target number, or target number unrelated to attributes are not subject to object resistance for target numbers.

As for overcoming object resistance? I don't know. Consistency would say yes, logic would say no.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Jul 8 2005, 02:51 PM Post #66
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	The TN for vehicle mask if 4. The TN for casting invisibility on a vehicle is 4. The Tn for casting fireball at a vehicle is 4. However, none of these spells will do anything if they are less than force 4.. If the Body + armor = 2 or 3 then the force has to be 5 or greater. If the Body + Armor = 4 or 5 then the force must be 6 or greater. And so on.

LinaInverse View Member Profile	Jul 8 2005, 03:46 PM Post #67
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 292 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,701	The rules are kind of nebulous on this. We're having this debate here. My belief is that the rules for OR/Drones and magic mostly apply against Combat spells, so yes, nailing a Drone/Vehicle/etc with a Power Bolt is rather tough. Elemental Manipulation spells on the other hand use a fixed target number (possibly TK Manips as well, depending on how you read the rules). But even if TK uses the Elemental Manip rules, Levitating any kind of serious combat drone (Doberman, Steel Lynx, Medusa) is a very tough cast; these can easily weight 400-800kgs. Also don't forget; Elemental spell damage is not vehicular damage (unless someone wants to Rule-Fu me on this); that means whatever Drone you're casting against, cut the staging by 1 and cut the power by half. You do the math. Regardless, Drones are extremely effective against mages; they're hard to cast against, regardless whether you use OR or fixed TN on TK. Most Mages I know tend to be slower and more fragile than their Sammy counterparts, and drones pack some of the heaviest firepower in the game

weblife View Member Profile	Jul 8 2005, 04:52 PM Post #68
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318	The rules are not unclear at all. Fixed TN spells have fixed TN. Spells with variable TN must use Obj.rating+(BOD+Armor)/2 as TN. In ADDITION, all spells cast at vehicles must have a Power greater than (Obj.Rating+(BOD+Armor)/2)/2. One part affects TN, the other affects if the spell works at all.

LinaInverse

Jul 8 2005, 07:19 PM

Post #69

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QUOTE (weblife @ Jul 8 2005, 10:52 AM)

The rules are not unclear at all.

Fixed TN spells have fixed TN.

Spells with variable TN must use Obj.rating+(BOD+Armor)/2 as TN.

In ADDITION, all spells cast at vehicles must have a Power greater than (Obj.Rating+(BOD+Armor)/2)/2.

One part affects TN, the other affects if the spell works at all.

One, is there an actual canon cite for this? And two, if so, I need to tell my GM (see my included thread). Last time we played, we were having to roll TN# OR+Body+(1/100KG) to lift drones, which is hellaciously tougher than just 4+(weightMod). We balked at this, hence the debate listed above asking for clarification.

toturi

Jul 9 2005, 01:46 AM

Post #70

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QUOTE (LinaInverse)

One, is there an actual canon cite for this?

He can't give you that. I'll eat my BBB, MITS and Rigger 3 + Errata if he can.

Dawnshadow

Jul 9 2005, 01:54 AM

Post #71

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Page 182, BBB, section on Sorcery Test

QUOTE (SR3 p182)

The base target number varies with the type and category of spell being cast. If the target is a living being, then the target number is usually the target's Willpower for a mana spell, or Body for a physical spell. The target nubmer for spells cast against inanimate objects is based on the material from which the object is made. The more "high-tech" or processed an object is, the harder it is for magic to affect it. The Force of the spell must be equal to or greater than half the Object Resistance, rounded down, for it to affect an object. Vehicles add Body and half armor to object resistance before dividing in half. Consult the Object Resistance Table for examples of objects and materials.

Other spells have specific target numbers; see the individual spell descriptions on pages 191-98.

Reading said section -- some spells target attributes, and so have target OR. Other spells have specific target numbers -- and so do not have target OR.

toturi View Member Profile	Jul 9 2005, 02:08 AM Post #72
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187	But it does not clearly state that even if a spell has a specific TN, it cannot be replaced by another TN due to another rule. It is too vague for me, it is simply stating what we already know. If there was a line stating that the fixed TN takes precedence, I'd be happy to accept that.

Nebuchadnezzar

Jul 9 2005, 02:08 AM

Post #73

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QUOTE (toturi)

QUOTE (LinaInverse @ Jul 9 2005, 03:19 AM)

One, is there an actual canon cite for this?

He can't give you that. I'll eat my BBB, MITS and Rigger 3 + Errata if he can.

Fiber is good for you, though if your books are in PDF, you might have trouble crunching through your hard drive. . .

toturi View Member Profile	Jul 9 2005, 02:10 AM Post #74
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187	I'd never need to eat my books. I'm not a bookninja for nothing. If what I wanted was written in the books, I'd have found it.

Dawnshadow

Jul 9 2005, 02:28 AM

Post #75

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QUOTE (toturi)

But it does not clearly state that even if a spell has a specific TN, it cannot be replaced by another TN due to another rule. It is too vague for me, it is simply stating what we already know. If there was a line stating that the fixed TN takes precedence, I'd be happy to accept that.

Why would they add a line that anyone reading it would logically derive?

You have one paragraph which discusses spells that target attribute -- OR is grouped there.

Then you have another paragraph which discusses spells which have fixed TN's. No mention of OR there -- so OR does not affect the TN.

It's not the text that makes the big difference there -- it's the paragraph change/linking.

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