 I need a Dragon, A really tough dragon. |
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 Nov 12 2004, 04:14 AM
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#26
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Chrome to the Core  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715  |
It's the karma, isn't it Doc? :silly:
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Nov 12 2004, 04:21 AM
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#27
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
<nods sadly>
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Nov 12 2004, 04:22 AM
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#28
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
*pat pat*
There, there... |
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Nov 12 2004, 05:03 AM
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#29
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Also, dragons have special abilities in conjuring (though they have limitations as well), and will probably have many spirits, free and bound, about them of all various sorts (though none of the bound will be Spirits of Man or Loa), around half great forms.
In the case of Hualpa, his weakest point would be durning Carnival in the human city, but you can be sure he'll have a contingent of the Awakened Army all around with Detect Enemies of Hualpa spells sustained on them. And the Astral Plane during Carnival will be an awesome sight (which might help the attackers since the dual natured critters will have a distraction). Since Hualpa will be the center of the emotions where he is, he may be able to tap that energy in a way similar to the GGD. |
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Nov 12 2004, 07:34 AM
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#30
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Other than Arleesh, can you think of anyone who better fits the description? ;) |
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Nov 12 2004, 08:20 AM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
I don't know about SR3, but in SR2 the stat block for Dragons (p.234) includes an entry for Great Dragon at the bottom consisting of modifiers to an existing dragon's stats. It's easy to miss if you're skimming. Of course it also adds "Estimates only, inidividuals vary widely" :D
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Nov 12 2004, 08:45 AM
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#32
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Plus who says GDs can't have the Exceptional Attribute edge, etc too?
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Nov 12 2004, 08:53 AM
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#33
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Brrr... I just got the bizarre image of an Ambi-8 GD wielding a Panther Assault Cannon in each hand...
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Nov 12 2004, 11:39 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 175 Joined: 15-July 04 From: Imperial Japan Member No.: 6,483 |
Great Dragons are usually placed in the Ultimate catagory, meaning no stats needed. The only time I used a dragon was at the end of Paradise Lost. He wasnt even a Great and still he kicked the *bip* out of the PCs.
a young Great would be the dragon on the philliphins (Musaru? cant recall his name) Another thing to note is that in DotSW the stats noted are the MININUM of what they can have ... Dragons are evil and tough, dont play with them. :( |
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Nov 12 2004, 12:33 PM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Well, if there's any chance of the dragon having to get into melee, you should absolutely give it a Dikoted Pole Arm. 14D, +3 Reach with 7 dice -> 44D, +5 Reach with 7 dice. |
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Nov 12 2004, 03:31 PM
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#36
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Aren't you being a tad bit contary there? First you say that's when he'll be at his weakest point, then you switch to saying that he might pull a virtual Great Ghost Dance out of his ass due to it. <slaps the crack-pipe you stole from me outta your hand> |
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Nov 12 2004, 05:14 PM
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#37
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i usually only place the "known" GDs in the don't-need-stats category. the inclusion of GD stats in SR3 and DotSW indicates that there are lesser-known GDs running around, who aren't as badass as the rest. of course, this requires simply ignoring Masaru, who probably shouldn't be in the statsless column.
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Nov 12 2004, 05:39 PM
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#38
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
Yeah, when it boils down to it, it takes armys to go after dragons. Dont deal with dragons...
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Nov 12 2004, 05:41 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,700 |
nah, just give him cyberspurs, use rules for second weapon, then give him second set of 2 cyberspurs, makes 4.. oh and one in the tail, makes 5.. should be able to reach 3 and almost 4 digit damage depending on how you add it :P seriously, though I would munchkinise a dragon a lot, using magic, some initiate grades, some anchored spells <at the very least he can have his init +3d6 like mages do.. 6 then body+4, etc etc...> , make up some houserules as they are supposed to be the best at magic but canon doesnt really go into what and how they can cast.. I would let a great cast anything no drain unless the power of it goes over his magic rating, even then I`d probably halve the drain tn & make them able to cast really serious ritual magic. As Dragons tend to be physical combat types<at least when directly threatened> I would allow it some physad buys <after all, dunkie says to ryan mercury somewhere that all paths of magic are really the same>, which actually prob makes more sense if your dragons like to go into melee. all powers that increase damage, speed, senses, close combat skill unarmed/claw , maneuvers <tail swipe from d&d is funny, swoop& grab small critter is another nice one, >, armor, barriers, elemental effects, etc. perhaps distance strike as well.. not sure if it fits. now that would make for a -not unkillable-but-really-tough- opponent, just make SURE to give it a nice personality so it will be remembered and wont be the `monstre du jour`. it would likely underestimate the runners at first. DS |
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Nov 12 2004, 05:52 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 392 Joined: 18-October 04 From: Tujunga, CA Member No.: 6,768 |
ummm...Did he say a minor GREAT DRAGON? What am I missing...
You really need to buy the DotSW book. They have great detaileds on dragons. |
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Nov 12 2004, 09:33 PM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 18-October 04 Member No.: 6,770 |
A dragon will always be vastly more 'intelligent' than a PC, even if his intelligence score is 2 blips under the most twinked out player.
This is because, somewhere on HIS character sheet he has about 4000 knowledge skills all at his intelligence rating or higher. Being alive for a few thousand years will do that you know. Considering a player can reasonably get 300-1000 karma in his lifetime from n00b to veteran to retired/dead. (amount varies on twinkishness and racial age limits) now that's in roughly what....60 years? (Well, more for elves). So yeah, the most adept chess player in the world could beat a dragon once. (Damien knight vs Lowfyr), doesn't mean he's superior. |
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Nov 12 2004, 11:09 PM
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#42
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Damien Knight lost to an Otaku. Which almost proves your point.
It will be his weakest point since his lair will have more counters and guards, and actually potent worshipers (Aid Spell!) to draw from. Carnival is the best chance. Force him to use the powerful magic right away, concentrate all the masking on one phantasm spell that would cause him to do so, and then hit him from every side with everything. |
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Nov 13 2004, 01:12 AM
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#43
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Target Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 26-April 04 Member No.: 6,284 |
I think if you want something the PC's can kill with planning you're looking for "minor dragon" not "minor great dragon".
I'm trying to hash out something similar for my game, here's how it's looking thus far: * a few grades of initiation (maybe 3-5?) * most spells at force 7ish, some of 'em exclusive * sorcery skill of about 12 * unarmed combat(claw) at 8(15) ish * sustaining foci for stuff like armor, enhance willpower, enhance body and the one which allows him to maintain human form (as I don't think non-greats can do that without a spell) * maybe 5-10 karma pool? what do you all think? |
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Nov 13 2004, 04:51 AM
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#44
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Dragonmoded vindicator minigun, dual wielded with dragonmoded panther assault cannon.
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Nov 13 2004, 05:13 AM
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#45
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Masking, Shielding, and Invoking at the very least. Absorbtion, Sensing, and Pyscometry make good additions.
Sounds fine, but remember that even with a willpower 8 and nice sized spell pool, getting a large number of sixes isn't likely.
Meh, I think 8 is a better call.
Don't overlook ritual sorcery either. It can be used to sustain spells for a period, as can elementals. Tactics are the most important part, numbers less so. Just because it's a dragon doesn't mean it won't use stealth (like using Shapechange to appear as a mouse) or evasion (Deflect not withstanding) or baiting the runners into traps (illusion magic). |
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Nov 13 2004, 06:01 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 175 Joined: 15-July 04 From: Imperial Japan Member No.: 6,483 |
Giving how old mature noneGreat dragons are they should be more than a challenge for even quite experienced runners. And to answer your question I would just use the basic stats giving in BBB or DotSWwith some modifications.
I seem to recall that it is noted in the DotSW that the greats who can take metahuman form uses an ability and not a spell. Dragons also have loads of Karma Pool (think an "average" dragon have around 10 to 20), most of them have 2-digits in all magic skills and more knowledge skills than you can think up :) (sorry, cant remember who said that) They will use the terrain to their advantage, tail sweep, grab-and-drop, close off areas with barriers and on top of that maybe a small army of henchmen/cohorts. ... Masasu might still need stats, but he is learning very quickly. My fave Great to be honest :D |
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Nov 13 2004, 08:24 PM
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#47
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
None of the big Greats have stats in DotSW (unless there's another section I'm skipping over).
And by "Masasu," do you mean "Masaru?" |
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Nov 13 2004, 08:34 PM
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#48
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 7-May 04 Member No.: 6,308 |
There was an old adventrue where the players were hired to transport an egg stolen from Masaru. As I recall, they gave him stats there. Huge, borderline unkillable Great Dragon stats, but doable by a character with access to military weapons.
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Nov 13 2004, 08:39 PM
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#49
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
(Nearly) everything is possible if you have access to milspec gear. |
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Nov 13 2004, 09:09 PM
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#50
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
was Masaru a GD yet, in that run? i don't remember if he was or not, or even which run it was.
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