Full Version: I need a Dragon
I don't have any of the dragon books and I have a Dragon antagonist coing up. I need stats for a average run of the mill western Dragon. Can anyone help me out?
You don't have access to SR3? They list basic, run-of-the-mill dragons and great dragons in the Dragons & Spirits chapter.
Stats for a western dragon can be found in the main book.
There are stats for an average, run of the mill Western Dragon in the SR3 BBB RAW etc. Its in the chapter called, IIRC, "Sprits and Dragons". I can't look it up right now because my book is out of arms reach and also I'm lazy. And its a lot of trouble. And I don't care. But if not for those few reasons, I could help more.
Everyones a critic. 
I was looking for what people on the board considered run-of-the-mill.
I was looking for what people on the board considered run-of-the-mill.
The one in the book.
Not to be curt, but the listing in the book is for the "average" dragon. What constitutes "average" in draconic terms (aside from the stats in the book), is a matter of some conjecture. 50% of all doctors finish in the bottom half of their class.
Not to be curt, but the listing in the book is for the "average" dragon. What constitutes "average" in draconic terms (aside from the stats in the book), is a matter of some conjecture. 50% of all doctors finish in the bottom half of their class.
You know, if you dont want to post stats for what you consider a run of the mill dragon, you don't have to post. There's no one holding a gun to your head saying you need to post and be an ass.
If your not interested, don't post. Sheesh. Kids these days.
If your not interested, don't post. Sheesh. Kids these days.
Hmm, it has been pointed out (Dr. Funk) that my question was to generic.
Allow me to reword it.
What kind of stats would you (you being the reader) give a minor Great Dragon?
Better Doc?
Allow me to reword it.
What kind of stats would you (you being the reader) give a minor Great Dragon?
Better Doc?
Acquitted.
Like Hualpa's for instance.
| QUOTE (Shadow @ Nov 11 2004, 08:18 PM) |
| Like Hualpa's for instance. |
Did you just call the leader of the GREEN WORLD a minor Great Dragon. You are so fragging dead.
I might post something when I get home and pick up Dragons, but pretty much keep the stats listed and tweak as desired. Feathered Serpents are known for blood magic, but other than that, give him every metamagic in the books, every spell, and a few sustaining foci (gold teeth), and an Anchor from Hell (horn ring) that pretty much has Detect Danger linked to a Prevent Danger spell.
Concensus is that a "run of the mill" adult dragon, killeable by players if they plan it our really, really well and bring very, very big guns, are the ones posted in SR3. A Great is a plot device, and not to be given stats. If you feel like having your players kill Hualpa, then no stats needed. You're either gonna decide they succeed or they don't. Rolling for it would be ridiculous.
Well, according to DotSW... A Great gets the following bonuses.
Body: +10/12
Quickness: +3 (+1)
Strength: +10
Charisma: +5
Intelligence: +5
Willpower: +5
Essence: 12Z
Reaction: +3
Initiative: +1D6
Astral Initiative: +1D6
Attacks: 16D, +4 Reach
Consider that an "average" Western is 15/8, 7 (x3), 40, 8, 8, 8... Num-num, eat-em-up!
Body: +10/12
Quickness: +3 (+1)
Strength: +10
Charisma: +5
Intelligence: +5
Willpower: +5
Essence: 12Z
Reaction: +3
Initiative: +1D6
Astral Initiative: +1D6
Attacks: 16D, +4 Reach
Consider that an "average" Western is 15/8, 7 (x3), 40, 8, 8, 8... Num-num, eat-em-up!
Take a good note at the fact that most dragons are not as smart as "smart" Otaku.
Just food for thought....
Just food for thought....
Which was a bit of an ability mistake, I feel.
Maybe younger ones are "dim witted," but Greats are known for lots of things, including vastly superior intelligence.
Maybe younger ones are "dim witted," but Greats are known for lots of things, including vastly superior intelligence.
Perhaps but i like the fact the one of my characters (Mo) can almost as intelligent as Hestaby
And 8-9 is vastly superior intelligence. 8-9 would represent people like Netwon, Da Vinci, and Aristotle...
But as they Shockwave was saying, that's not that great compared to what an Otaku can hit Intelligence-wise. Especially with the Bonus and Exceptional Attribute Point edges.
Otaku hit, what, 11 or 12 with all that? (Including the only throwing 1 to all your Physicals or whatever the rule is.)
Yeah, I doubt a Great would be outwitted by them. At least, not too often.
Yeah, I doubt a Great would be outwitted by them. At least, not too often.
Sigh, 'otaku' it almost makes my eyes bleed.
For how stupid a name this is, replace it with 'wanker, 'fanboy', 'trekkie' or something that fits into your cultural context better.
Calling them 'trekkies' is about at stupid, but at least I find that funny, rather than painful.
For how stupid a name this is, replace it with 'wanker, 'fanboy', 'trekkie' or something that fits into your cultural context better.
Calling them 'trekkies' is about at stupid, but at least I find that funny, rather than painful.
Well, that's the name FASA picked. Can't help that now, can we?
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| Otaku hit, what, 11 or 12 with all that? (Including the only throwing 1 to all your Physicals or whatever the rule is.) Yeah, I doubt a Great would be outwitted by them. At least, not too often. |
Without checking i think she has hit 12 without exceptional attribute though if you factor that in it becomes 14 with a +2 for learning int based skills due to an Encephalon 2
| QUOTE |
| Sigh, 'otaku' it almost makes my eyes bleed. |
I think it's hilarious. They even tend to fit the Otaku image: young teens obsessed with uberl33t technogeekery which fades away as they get older. Denver as a whole is one of the funnier supplements of 2nd Ed.
whoah, whoah. where's it say GDs have an Int of 8-9? my book says that you add the GD mods to the base dragon stats, which gives GDs an Int of 13. an otaku's max, with bonus/exceptional attribute and a full cerebral boost, is 15.
er, oh. y'all were talking about regular dragons, with the 8-9. *shrug* i have no problem with regular dragons being "only" as intelligent as the best mankind has to offer.
er, oh. y'all were talking about regular dragons, with the 8-9. *shrug* i have no problem with regular dragons being "only" as intelligent as the best mankind has to offer.
[Ignore me. I gotta lay off the crack pipe.]
It's the karma, isn't it Doc? 
<nods sadly>
*pat pat*
There, there...
There, there...
Also, dragons have special abilities in conjuring (though they have limitations as well), and will probably have many spirits, free and bound, about them of all various sorts (though none of the bound will be Spirits of Man or Loa), around half great forms.
In the case of Hualpa, his weakest point would be durning Carnival in the human city, but you can be sure he'll have a contingent of the Awakened Army all around with Detect Enemies of Hualpa spells sustained on them. And the Astral Plane during Carnival will be an awesome sight (which might help the attackers since the dual natured critters will have a distraction). Since Hualpa will be the center of the emotions where he is, he may be able to tap that energy in a way similar to the GGD.
In the case of Hualpa, his weakest point would be durning Carnival in the human city, but you can be sure he'll have a contingent of the Awakened Army all around with Detect Enemies of Hualpa spells sustained on them. And the Astral Plane during Carnival will be an awesome sight (which might help the attackers since the dual natured critters will have a distraction). Since Hualpa will be the center of the emotions where he is, he may be able to tap that energy in a way similar to the GGD.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Did you just call the leader of the GREEN WORLD a minor Great Dragon. You are so fragging dead. |
Other than Arleesh, can you think of anyone who better fits the description?
I don't know about SR3, but in SR2 the stat block for Dragons (p.234) includes an entry for Great Dragon at the bottom consisting of modifiers to an existing dragon's stats. It's easy to miss if you're skimming. Of course it also adds "Estimates only, inidividuals vary widely" 
Plus who says GDs can't have the Exceptional Attribute edge, etc too?
Brrr... I just got the bizarre image of an Ambi-8 GD wielding a Panther Assault Cannon in each hand...
Great Dragons are usually placed in the Ultimate catagory, meaning no stats needed. The only time I used a dragon was at the end of Paradise Lost. He wasnt even a Great and still he kicked the *bip* out of the PCs.
a young Great would be the dragon on the philliphins (Musaru? cant recall his name)
Another thing to note is that in DotSW the stats noted are the MININUM of what they can have ... Dragons are evil and tough, dont play with them.
a young Great would be the dragon on the philliphins (Musaru? cant recall his name)
Another thing to note is that in DotSW the stats noted are the MININUM of what they can have ... Dragons are evil and tough, dont play with them.
| QUOTE (DrJest) |
| Brrr... I just got the bizarre image of an Ambi-8 GD wielding a Panther Assault Cannon in each hand... |
Well, if there's any chance of the dragon having to get into melee, you should absolutely give it a Dikoted Pole Arm. 14D, +3 Reach with 7 dice -> 44D, +5 Reach with 7 dice.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| In the case of Hualpa, his weakest point would be durning Carnival in the human city, but you can be sure he'll have a contingent of the Awakened Army all around with Detect Enemies of Hualpa spells sustained on them. And the Astral Plane during Carnival will be an awesome sight (which might help the attackers since the dual natured critters will have a distraction). Since Hualpa will be the center of the emotions where he is, he may be able to tap that energy in a way similar to the GGD. |
Aren't you being a tad bit contary there? First you say that's when he'll be at his weakest point, then you switch to saying that he might pull a virtual Great Ghost Dance out of his ass due to it. <slaps the crack-pipe you stole from me outta your hand>
i usually only place the "known" GDs in the don't-need-stats category. the inclusion of GD stats in SR3 and DotSW indicates that there are lesser-known GDs running around, who aren't as badass as the rest. of course, this requires simply ignoring Masaru, who probably shouldn't be in the statsless column.
Yeah, when it boils down to it, it takes armys to go after dragons. Dont deal with dragons...
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
Well, if there's any chance of the dragon having to get into melee, you should absolutely give it a Dikoted Pole Arm. 14D, +3 Reach with 7 dice -> 44D, +5 Reach with 7 dice. |
nah, just give him cyberspurs, use rules for second weapon, then give him second set of 2 cyberspurs, makes 4.. oh and one in the tail, makes 5.. should be able to reach 3 and almost 4 digit damage depending on how you add it
seriously, though I would munchkinise a dragon a lot, using magic, some initiate grades, some anchored spells <at the very least he can have his init +3d6 like mages do.. 6 then body+4, etc etc...> , make up some houserules as they are supposed to be the best at magic but canon doesnt really go into what and how they can cast.. I would let a great cast anything no drain unless the power of it goes over his magic rating, even then I`d probably halve the drain tn & make them able to cast really serious ritual magic.
As Dragons tend to be physical combat types<at least when directly threatened> I would allow it some physad buys <after all, dunkie says to ryan mercury somewhere that all paths of magic are really the same>, which actually prob makes more sense if your dragons like to go into melee. all powers that increase damage, speed, senses, close combat skill unarmed/claw , maneuvers <tail swipe from d&d is funny, swoop& grab small critter is another nice one, >, armor, barriers, elemental effects, etc. perhaps distance strike as well.. not sure if it fits.
now that would make for a -not unkillable-but-really-tough- opponent, just make SURE to give it a nice personality so it will be remembered and wont be the `monstre du jour`. it would likely underestimate the runners at first.
DS
ummm...Did he say a minor GREAT DRAGON? What am I missing...
You really need to buy the DotSW book. They have great detaileds on dragons.
You really need to buy the DotSW book. They have great detaileds on dragons.
A dragon will always be vastly more 'intelligent' than a PC, even if his intelligence score is 2 blips under the most twinked out player.
This is because, somewhere on HIS character sheet he has about 4000 knowledge skills all at his intelligence rating or higher. Being alive for a few thousand years will do that you know. Considering a player can reasonably get 300-1000 karma in his lifetime from n00b to veteran to retired/dead. (amount varies on twinkishness and racial age limits) now that's in roughly what....60 years? (Well, more for elves).
So yeah, the most adept chess player in the world could beat a dragon once. (Damien knight vs Lowfyr), doesn't mean he's superior.
This is because, somewhere on HIS character sheet he has about 4000 knowledge skills all at his intelligence rating or higher. Being alive for a few thousand years will do that you know. Considering a player can reasonably get 300-1000 karma in his lifetime from n00b to veteran to retired/dead. (amount varies on twinkishness and racial age limits) now that's in roughly what....60 years? (Well, more for elves).
So yeah, the most adept chess player in the world could beat a dragon once. (Damien knight vs Lowfyr), doesn't mean he's superior.
| QUOTE |
| So yeah, the most adept chess player in the world could beat a dragon once. (Damien knight vs Lowfyr), doesn't mean he's superior. |
Damien Knight lost to an Otaku. Which almost proves your point.
| QUOTE |
| Aren't you being a tad bit contary there? First you say that's when he'll be at his weakest point, then you switch to saying that he might pull a virtual Great Ghost Dance out of his ass due to it. <slaps the crack-pipe you stole from me outta your hand> |
It will be his weakest point since his lair will have more counters and guards, and actually potent worshipers (Aid Spell!) to draw from. Carnival is the best chance. Force him to use the powerful magic right away, concentrate all the masking on one phantasm spell that would cause him to do so, and then hit him from every side with everything.
I think if you want something the PC's can kill with planning you're looking for "minor dragon" not "minor great dragon".
I'm trying to hash out something similar for my game, here's how it's looking thus far:
* a few grades of initiation (maybe 3-5?)
* most spells at force 7ish, some of 'em exclusive
* sorcery skill of about 12
* unarmed combat(claw) at 8(15) ish
* sustaining foci for stuff like armor, enhance willpower, enhance body and the one which allows him to maintain human form (as I don't think non-greats can do that without a spell)
* maybe 5-10 karma pool?
what do you all think?
I'm trying to hash out something similar for my game, here's how it's looking thus far:
* a few grades of initiation (maybe 3-5?)
* most spells at force 7ish, some of 'em exclusive
* sorcery skill of about 12
* unarmed combat(claw) at 8(15) ish
* sustaining foci for stuff like armor, enhance willpower, enhance body and the one which allows him to maintain human form (as I don't think non-greats can do that without a spell)
* maybe 5-10 karma pool?
what do you all think?
Dragonmoded vindicator minigun, dual wielded with dragonmoded panther assault cannon.
| QUOTE |
| * a few grades of initiation (maybe 3-5?) |
Masking, Shielding, and Invoking at the very least. Absorbtion, Sensing, and Pyscometry make good additions.
| QUOTE |
| * most spells at force 7ish, some of 'em exclusive |
Sounds fine, but remember that even with a willpower 8 and nice sized spell pool, getting a large number of sixes isn't likely.
| QUOTE |
| * sorcery skill of about 12 |
Meh, I think 8 is a better call.
| QUOTE |
| * sustaining foci for stuff like armor, enhance willpower, enhance body and the one which allows him to maintain human form (as I don't think non-greats can do that without a spell) |
Don't overlook ritual sorcery either. It can be used to sustain spells for a period, as can elementals.
Tactics are the most important part, numbers less so. Just because it's a dragon doesn't mean it won't use stealth (like using Shapechange to appear as a mouse) or evasion (Deflect not withstanding) or baiting the runners into traps (illusion magic).
Giving how old mature noneGreat dragons are they should be more than a challenge for even quite experienced runners. And to answer your question I would just use the basic stats giving in BBB or DotSWwith some modifications.
I seem to recall that it is noted in the DotSW that the greats who can take metahuman form uses an ability and not a spell.
Dragons also have loads of Karma Pool (think an "average" dragon have around 10 to 20), most of them have 2-digits in all magic skills and more knowledge skills than you can think up (sorry, cant remember who said that)
They will use the terrain to their advantage, tail sweep, grab-and-drop, close off areas with barriers and on top of that maybe a small army of henchmen/cohorts.
...
Masasu might still need stats, but he is learning very quickly. My fave Great to be honest
I seem to recall that it is noted in the DotSW that the greats who can take metahuman form uses an ability and not a spell.
Dragons also have loads of Karma Pool (think an "average" dragon have around 10 to 20), most of them have 2-digits in all magic skills and more knowledge skills than you can think up
(sorry, cant remember who said that)They will use the terrain to their advantage, tail sweep, grab-and-drop, close off areas with barriers and on top of that maybe a small army of henchmen/cohorts.
...
Masasu might still need stats, but he is learning very quickly. My fave Great to be honest
None of the big Greats have stats in DotSW (unless there's another section I'm skipping over).
And by "Masasu," do you mean "Masaru?"
And by "Masasu," do you mean "Masaru?"
There was an old adventrue where the players were hired to transport an egg stolen from Masaru. As I recall, they gave him stats there. Huge, borderline unkillable Great Dragon stats, but doable by a character with access to military weapons.
| QUOTE (Just Jonny) |
| There was an old adventrue where the players were hired to transport an egg stolen from Masaru. As I recall, they gave him stats there. Huge, borderline unkillable Great Dragon stats, but doable by a character with access to military weapons. |
(Nearly) everything is possible if you have access to milspec gear.
was Masaru a GD yet, in that run? i don't remember if he was or not, or even which run it was.
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