 Called Shots, Official FAQ |
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 Jun 23 2004, 03:00 PM
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#51
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Mostly Harmless  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176  |
See, the problem is that thinking that a rule like this "breaks" anything is simply a matter of perception. In my opinion, having the option to bypass armor doesn't break anything. Sure, some things should probably be adjusted (I don't believe I've said anything to the contrary), and I'm sorry that I don't feel the need to get into detail about those adjustments as I have not the time nor the inclination to spell it out for anyone here. It should be pretty obvious as to what needs to change, and each group is certainly capable of making those changes to suit their needs. Does that mean the whole system needs to change to suit this one rule? Absolutely not. I'm not ignoring the fact that bypassing armor changes the game. It definitely does that. It makes the game much more deadly. But I actually like it that way. To me the system is more "broken" without the option to bypass body armor. |
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Jun 23 2004, 05:49 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
Regarding staging damage.... SR3 page 113 states:
This means you don't have to stage damage up, but net successes have to be rolled off before the defender can stage damage down. Under Called Shots:
While the section gives you only two choices (increase damage, or hit a specific target on something vehicle sized or larger), you can tell your GM "I just want to hit his hand, not kill him, so I'm making a called shot to his hand, and I'm not staging damage for the called shot. It may not be specifically Canon according to SR3 rules, but a reasonable GM can understand that a hand is certainly less vulnerable than the head and not increase the damage level simply because Canon only offers two choices. Even the guys who made the game don't suggest sticking to absolute "canon"
Personally, I like called shots, and bypass worn armor. Sometimes shit happens. I've seen Phys adept with Amazing Pistols skills and full ambidexterity, miss 3 out of four called shots at close range, using up all combat pool, to give the target only a Moderate wound on the last try (before we realized called shot can only be used once per Initiative pass). And then I've seen an NPC killed with a gel round from a pistol... and we needed him alive. |
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Jun 23 2004, 06:42 PM
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#53
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
What about using called shots to bypass vehicle armor? Has anyone had to deal with that much in their games? They'd still halve the power of their weapons and reduce damage code by one, but it still means somebody could damage a tank with a predator, which just seems...wrong.
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Jun 23 2004, 06:49 PM
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#54
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That is best dealt with by a BBB to the back of the head.
~J |
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Jun 23 2004, 07:09 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
Sometimes, it's worth writing out an opinion on a topic. Other times, you can just point at someone elses opinion.
A rant from a D&D designer named Sean K. Reynolds. While about D&D in particular, most of the arguments are perfectly applicable to SR and shouldn't require any knowledge of d20 to comprehend. Personally, I believe called shots should never increase damage. It leads to stupid shit with statistics where players calculate exactly when it's optimal to perform called shots vs normal shots to maximize damage. Something like calling shots for Stress as outlined in M&M is palatable to me. I came up with something like this when one GM of mine couldn't be dissuaded from adding called shots to the game in some fashion that bypassed armor. After successfully rolling an attack, you may choose to subtract any number of successes. If the attack still hits after the target rolls dodge, reduce the effective armor of the target for the purposes of soaking that attack by 1 for every success you subtracted. The end result is just the same damn thing as increasing the power of the attack, except since I said it was 'reducing armor' I was able to convince him it was a way to treat bypassing armor. I also pointed out that this made it easier to dodge 'called shots', to reflect that they're aiming at a smaller target. Seeing as how my character was a phys adept with lots of combat pool, this did nothing but make it easier for me to dodge shots. |
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Jun 23 2004, 07:14 PM
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#56
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You don't like people actually thinking about what they're doing?
~J |
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Jun 23 2004, 08:16 PM
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#57
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Thinking about what you're doing and demanding an in game bonus for doing it that way are two different things. |
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Jun 23 2004, 08:35 PM
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#58
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That sounds like thinking about what you're doing. Especially since the answer is usually "when you have to take someone down in one hit and your skill is down around 3". ~J |
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Jun 23 2004, 08:42 PM
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#59
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Then your screwed. This is an abstract game system. If you don't like that, play GURPS and shoot for the eyes every time. Play the game however you like, just don't try and force FanPro to put in a more detailed combat system. Flow and fun are far more important the realism. Besides, a little common sens on the rules goes a long way. |
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Jun 23 2004, 09:40 PM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
Actually, the fact D20 (moronically) has armor that makes it harder to hit people, as opposed to affecting damage at all, plays a large role in his arguments. SR has a much more sensible approach, and hence can much more easily be converted to hitlocs. |
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Jun 24 2004, 02:07 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 328 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,353 |
The problem with called shots is that they'll either be A.) too hard to do so it won't be used, or B.) too easy to do and therefore done all the time. Balance it be hard especially with junk like SL-2 and in the end you get little out of it. The only time it'll matter is when you'll taking a free shot (either from ambush, snipering, whatever) at which point it really doesn't matter as you'll blow him away either way.
I really like the explanation used in Exalted about called shots and extra damage, in that characters will always try to do the most damage they can limited by the dice and the level in the skill. If you'll rolling a ton of dice to hit, you'll get a lot of success meaning you hit somewhere nice (either an unarmored spot or someplace like the head). Sure they still get armor, but that can reflect the effort in hitting the same spot (as if they used an theoritcal called shot to bypass armor). |
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Jun 24 2004, 02:26 AM
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#62
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Exactly. I guess the question is thus: when, in battle, are you *not* trying to "call your shot", in the sense that you try to shoot somewhere important or vital? The "called shot" modifier, IMO, should really only apply to Option 3, when you're trying to hit the tires on a car, for example.
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Jun 24 2004, 04:15 AM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If center mass counts as important or vital, then hardly ever. But there certainly are different levels of aiming at something vital. There might be a time, even in a combat situation, certainly with SL2s around, where a person might choose to go for a shot to the head, knowing that his/her chances of hitting are less than just aiming for center mass but his/her chances of getting a one-shot-kill are higher. I don't think there's anything wrong with abstracting that choice to the roll of skill dice. I suppose that's quite enough for most groups, and then you only need Option 3. In some groups players like to make those choices themselves, so other options are required. |
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Jun 24 2004, 12:56 PM
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#64
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 25-October 02 Member No.: 3,498 |
How about requiring an aim action before you can make a called shot?
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Jun 24 2004, 01:57 PM
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#65
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Nothing wrong with that. You could argue that to call a shot you have to spend a significant amount of time making sure your weapon is pointing specifically at that point and not just at the target in general. On the other hand, it might be possible to aim at certain spots instinctively -- it's certainly possible in computer games, I'm not sure how well it works IRL... Also, the 1.5 second time span to "fire a weapon" for a <11 init character could be considered to include enough time to call a shot anyway.
This has no impact on other considerations of called shots, though. Just a small modification, like using a larger TN penalty for calling a shot at a moving target. |
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Jun 25 2004, 07:30 PM
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#66
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 25-October 02 Member No.: 3,498 |
Well, it does halve the number of called shots you can make in a turn... |
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Jun 25 2004, 09:49 PM
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#67
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Why not just make a Called Shot a Simple Action? That way you're not dropping a point off the modifier with the required Aim action. I really don't understand why calling a shot is a Free Action while aiming is a Simple Action anyway. Seems to me that calling a shot basically means aiming for a particularly small area, which would require more effort than simple aiming. I think shooting without aiming/calling a shot would be more like Applegate's "point shooting" technique, which focuses more on speed of engagement than pinpoint accuracy.
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Jun 25 2004, 10:27 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
Sorry about the delay - Monitor died.
I object on principle to mechanics that have a high possibility of tricking people into calling a shot at their own foot. That is precisely what called shots usually are. People will call shots without realizing that they are actually doing worse than they would be if they just fired normally. Constantly calling shots in any situation where the opponent is wearing so much as an armored vest is especially common among Samurai with a Smartlink-2("If it's giving me a benefit, I better use it as often as possible!") and unarmed Adepts who chose the Wildcat style("If it's giving me a benefit, I better use it as often as possible!"). It's annoying watching people repeatedly miss shots they could have made. It's especially annoying when its an adept who is not only missing and not helping but actually getting himself beaten up by trying to call a shot. So yes, I do dislike mechanics that make people think because people don't neccessairily think. There's situations where Called Shots are a really good thing(Watching someone with a Walter 2100 score a bypass the armor on a Troll/Walking Tank/Phys Adept/ that was rushing us with a polearm weapon foci = Priceless for the look on the GMs face considering how much lead up to that point)
I really, really want to know if someone can come up with a non-contrived situation where someone will be forced to take someone down in one hit with a skill of 3. If someone is going to be in combat, there is virtually no excuse for them to have a skill of 3. I can't think of many situations where you wouldn't be using a more competent individual for any one hit take downs that were neccessary. |
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Jun 25 2004, 10:44 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
You get ambushed. |
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Jun 25 2004, 10:45 PM
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#70
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Generally speaking of you have a skill of three and get ambushed you SHOULD go down. That's what you get for meing marginally competent in combat. I dont see the reason to give a character a crutch to escape a situation like that. |
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Jun 25 2004, 10:50 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
I don't see how a reasonable called shot mechanic is a crutch... most people with 3 skill aren't going to be making incredible shots too often. He asked for a situation where someone with low skill needed to make a quick kill, and I gave him one.
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Jun 25 2004, 10:56 PM
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#72
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
But that's not a reasonable scenario to use a called shot. the odds are someone with three dice won't ever get a sucess with the +4 TN. have few dice so you jack your TN up? let's face it, the person with three dice is screwed in this scenario called shot or not, or please feel free to run through the whole scenario. Even WITH a called shot with a heavy pistol you need at least 2 net sucesses to do a one shot take down, which even if using max combat pool are pretty damn unlikely. |
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Jun 25 2004, 11:02 PM
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#73
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Really, the dynamics of precision aim both in SR and in real life are such that in combat, they are really only viable for the highly trained and very capable. The less competent you are, the more you should be worried about getting as many rounds on target as quickly as possible. Called shots are not for people with low skill who need to make a very fast kill. Called shots are either for highly skilled/highly augmented people who need a fast takedown or less skilled people who have time to line up a shot.
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Jun 25 2004, 11:14 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
I realize this... I don't understand why the original poster made the claim that this is what they're good for. Nonetheless, he asked for a situation, I gave it. Is a called shot a good idea in that situation? Probably not. |
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Jun 25 2004, 11:22 PM
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#75
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Fair enough, I just thought I was missing something fundamental here, guess not! :) |
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