How does the head shot work into this?

It seems to me that it works in both the armor avoiding and damage increasing fashions.

Well, for game balance, you can't get both benefits. Which certainly seems fair to me After all, runners are about twice as likely to suffer from that as security goons (who usually get helmets).

((( Dredging up Old Threads rather then messing up the board by starting a new one )))


If the target is wearing a helmet, it's quite likely reasonable to up the Helmet's Armor rating for purposes of a called shot. Consider the helmets armor rating to be similar of that to Cyberlimb armor. The total gets divided for that specific body part so that it applies to the general body as a whole.


Thus if you reverse engineer that for helmets, cause the armor rating of a helmet is divided to protect the body overall in the rules mechanics, it's obviously much tougher then Ballistic 1 (or whatever low Ballistic rating the helmet has) and thusly when it's targeted by a called shot should have it's full armor rating.


Just a thought ... =)

Way we use it is as follows (note, this is following the rules above, just like examples of how we apply it):

You could called shot for more damage. Like aiming for somones heart or something, basically the shooter is out to kill. +1 damage level.

You could called shot around armor. Aim for an area like the neck or under the arm where theres likley less armor. Ignore armor (note, we interpret this to mean worn armor, not things like dermal sheath or the armor spell that would theoretically be unavoidable; ymmv).

You could called shot for a subtarget. Like a called shot to the head, or a tire. Apply logic with effects (ie, only armor in target location, reduce move if its a leg, crash test for tire, etc; point being it doesnt raise the damage code, or ignore armor on its own, it just affects the subtarget).

Hope that helps.

I also use that 3rd part as the basis for maiming. afterall, most folks don't willingly lop off a perfectly good arm to be replaced by a metal one. they do however often opt for the metal replacement.

I'm considering houseruling that you can callshot to bypass bypassable armor at distances of two meters or under. Any thoughts on that?

(This houserule intended to bring that one-shot pistol with the shotgun round back into usefulness)

~J

How about changing the range to (Skill Rating) meters instead? I don't particularly like Called Shot rules at all, even the core rules for them, but going on skill level seems to make more sense than a flat range.

Even better.

*has flashbacks of AD&D and rogues*

(skill rating) meters doesn't really work for things like rifles which are meant to be used at longer ranges and tend to be used through a scope.

Maybe create an addition saying something like "if a scope is used, armor may be bypassed at any range"

That'd make it plausible for rifles, but it would make scopes even more powerful.

I wonder if its possible to get a cybernetic modification to a smartlink system to turn it on/off like Wired Reflexes have with that Reflex Trigger? That way smartlink users don't get the shaft, and if you're paying 1/12 of your essence for it I think it should be allowed.

I dunno, either it seems smartlink users get the shaft or non-smartlinked users get the shaft. Pah.

I might go with Skill in meters, but after a fair amount of thought as to allowing it with rifles, I think I'm probably going to leave them alone (without the benefit of bypassing armor). Wasn't there an argument suggesting that the higher Power of the sniper rifle reflected increased ability to bypass armor in addition to raw flesh-damaging capability, anyway?

There are a lot of realism reasons why snipers might be able to bypass armor, but I can't think of a good game-balance one right now.

~J

I agree that it should be free Phaeton, but I could see my way to paying like, 10% extra. Its 3500 for a SL2 so that's 350. Big whoop.

As for Armor bypassing and snipers are concerned...

Calling a shot means taking aim at a vulnerable part. You aren't aiming for that helmet, you're aiming for his eye socket. However, Its got a +4 modifier for a reason because the guy is going to hear that gun go off and then try to dodge out of the bleedin' way. You take this into account and that +4 is your judging "okay he'll probably go down and to the left, so I'll aim a bit down and to the left" and hope you hit him.

At short range that's TN8 to hit the guy. Looking on page 92 of the Sr3BBB that's "strenuous" right below Extreme and NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE.

As a GM I'd go with armor reduction or +1DL. Straight up Bypassing doesn't make much sense to me in all honesty because either you're wearing armor there or you aren't.

That +1DL means you hit them where it will do maximum damage, which means not full covered by armor.

If you want to aim at someone's torso you can get armor reduction. Probably 1/2 rounded down all ballistics ratings.

Say you take a heavy pistol and fire it at some guy's chest and he's got an armor jacket. Normal shot is just center mass so there's no big deal to rule full armor. If you aim for the plates covering his heart ONLY those plates count, and that means you don't get as much dispersal.

That 9M attack would be 9-5 for TN4 to resist, or 9-2 = TN7 to resist otherwise.

That extra power means you hit'em where it hurts. Harder to shrug it off and keep walking.

For abstract targets like hand/foot/arm/leg I'd count the hand/foot as no armor and +1DL because armor there isn't doing anything. If they have FFBA and are WEARING the gloves/Boots they'd still get +1DL but full rating of the FFBA, standard in other words.

Still going to cause more damage I'd say, but those gloves are going to help in a big way. It'd be easier to stage down, but you still need to get those 2 extra successes by default due to sensitive location or some other scientific fact.

For the leg, only armor covering that location works. This means no armor unless its a longcoat. For simplicity, I'd go with full armor value for determining the 1/2 because its not worth it to figure out which way its flapping.

So anyways, Scope would allow you to find the kinks and chinks a lot better than some guy eyeballing it with a smartlink. The SL makes it easier to HIT but not to PENETRATE, while that scope will get you both at the cost of slightly harder to hit them in the first place.

Also suggested to me by the designers was allowing a called shot to do -1DL for crippling shots. Damn gangers running away from your dwarf? Shoot them in the leg. Disarm the opponent with a called shot to the hand. I've been using it for a long time but it rarely gets invoked. Blood thirsty bastards.

I'm not talking about dodge. I'm talking about the natural reflexes that go off when you get startled.

You're going to cringe, move slightly this way or that way. Not enough to dodge, but that's part of that +4TN.

I'm just trying to find reasons for the way called shots work. I have lot of problems with shadowrun's system just like everyone else. Shadowrun is receptive to combat like AD&D is, so that area gets the most attention.

If you think I was trying to justify some sort of dodging reflex, that just isn't the case. Sorry if that's what it looked like.

Also, let's not forget calling a shot is free. Use your free action to say "I'm shooting him in the crotch with my super deluxe ball zapper 3000" and its +4TN. Spend a few seconds actually AIMING and the chance to do something improves immediately.

Hell, call the shot, aim for a simple action, then fire with the remaining simple (presuming this isn't a SS weapon or melee or something).

My guess is also that the +4 is your brain adjusting and second guessing, or whatever aiming actually constitutes. The SL2 cuts out that distracting element dramatically increasing the likelyhood of getting the shot off.

The brain operates at insanely high speeds that we know close to nothing about. All of these would thus contribute towards that +4TN besides the obvious "okay I'm steadying my arm, zeroing in on the target" etc, etc.

Hey, Raygun---did Andy provide any idea on how his system handled flamethrower effects and shot-shell fire?

Or, did andy provide a method for reworking all the armor values in the game to work right with his own hit location system? I didnt see that on his site, and the armor values are horribly wrong when taken out of abstract. :/

And I'll add to that: did he mention how multiple rounds in autofire are handled with hitting different locations? Sent you a PM asking about it (and shot; also addressed both here); not sure if you ever got it.

Our group plays by these rules. You want to call a shot, you must specify where you call it, as in, head, torso, arms or legs.

Headshots increase damage level and bypass armor IF the target has no armor in the head area. Called shots to other places go against whatever armor is present at that location, and will have some extra effects which are up to GM. Like shooting someone in the leg, well he/she/it isn't going to move around very fast. Shooting someone int the arm will most likely disable that arm, depending on the damage done. And also, when shooting someone in arms or legs, damage is capped to maximum of Serious. Also, you can't bypass Armor spells or cybernetic armor.

And helmets of various heavy armors have the armor rating of the heaviest version of the armor when calculating called shots. So Military-grade helmet has 9/8 armor and so on.

Final word: Yes, called shots are deadly and nasty. But they are not really all that easy to pull if you, as a GM, remember that perfect shooting conditions rarely exist. This means, even those called shots can be survived if the shooters TN is something like 12. And if the players start shooting everyone in the face, well, maybe those security goons will also start to do that, too.

I manage to control things by taking the wording literally.

Since "the damage code is not modified", I interpet that to mean that you can no longer stage up the damage. You're stuck with the base damage level of your weapon. And it makes sense-- shooting a guy in the knee or hand will cripple him more than shooting him center mass, but it's not as likely to hit a vial organ and kill him outright. Your successes only count to negate his dodge successes.

I interprete the FAQ in the same way too, Cain.

That's a really lame of handling the problem. It's blatantly obvious that the comment was in reference to option #1 which modifies the Damage Code. How you guys ever passed basic English Comprehension when you were in school amazes me.

Edit: nevermind.

Well, as rude and childish as his whiny little complaint is, Toy has a valid point. If you interpret "the damage code is not modified" to mean that you can't stage the damage up, then you must also interpret it to mean that the damage code is not staged *down*, either.

Personally I just interpret option 2 as: "Here, the creators just smoked a lot of crack and made up something stupid." I suppose I'd go with a called shot cutting all worn armor in half or something, but negating all armor seems a bit much, especially for a +2 TN (with SL-2) shot.

Well its still a base of +4TN and I don't really know of much else that's increased THAT substantially if you want to do it.

A called shot with melee bypasses all armor except that which is worn in the area. Why would a bullet be any different? The only REAL difference is what armor type you resist it with.

What I hate about shadowrun is the rules. The universe is really interesting but the rules in some instances were written by crackheads it seems.

It's not that it makes the game too deadly. It's that it breaks the rest of the immediate system (ie, why and why staging works, Damage Codes, and armor values).

Actually that flimsy hood has Ballistic 0

I would say that has nothing to do with called shots. Form fitting armor is silly. Armored clothing is even sillier. Don't allow it. Problem solved.

No, problem not solved. Your preference to dismiss it does nothing to fix the fact of what Armor Values mean within the game. It doesn't matter if its Form-Fitting Body Armor, a Lined Coat, or any other armor in the game. They're scores are an abstract composite of stopping power and coverage, as well as a few other minor things. The same is true of Damage Codes, staging, and practically every other aspect of the combat system; few of them represent only one thing.

Any time you try to make a feeble attempt to add "realism" into a game like Shadowrun, it's going to be a game-breaking failure unless you completely redo the rest of the system to compensate for those changes.

Slap me around and call me susan, I pretty much agree with DoctorWookieToyViolaterOfBoardTerms on this one.

Of course. Ignorance is bliss. If you prefer to ignore that its broken, then it's not. Your voluntary ignorance changes nothing, though. Especially when discussing said rule and the impact it has on the game.

To keep everything as logical as possible, you have to change a few things if you want to use hit locations and bypassing armor. The protection ratings of armor for different locations is definitely one. You don't have to change everything. I sure as hell haven't changed everything, and I dare claim my system is about as logical as SR combat house rules come. It would be great if we could simply let this argument go, and link to a few dozen earlier identical ones when we need to let off steam.

To me, damage does not equal wounds. Taking Damage of D does not mean taking a Deadly Wound. So while the damage may not modified, the wound taken may be.

That, of course, depends on from what direction you want to look at it. For very obvious reasons, I find the idea of a thin sheet of ballistic protection all over the body equalling a light vest to be vaguely absurd.