Ways to limit a sniping PC - Dumpshock Forums

Ways to limit a sniping PC, APDS sniping spoils the plot

Arethusa View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 05:56 AM Post #51
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	Well, it's fine if you're taking out lone targets. Unfortunately, it's only really much use if you're taking out people unimportant enough to be alone for any sufficient amount of time, at which point you might as well just shoot him anyway. The magical sniper, in theory, is ridiculously powerful; in practicality, it's just too much of a mess to be worth it in most cases. I suppose sniping a bug spirit from a mile off, or something, might be an exception.

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 05:58 AM Post #52
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	The rigger sniper is a pretty good choice too. Put some sniper rifles on condor drones and go to town. You can even use sensor enhanced gunnery.

Herald of Verjig... Herald of Verjigorm View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 06:01 AM Post #53
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017	Since the zoom is only neccessary to ID targets, you can get away with manaballs from the sniper very easily.

Arethusa

Nov 17 2004, 06:19 AM

Post #54

Runner

Group: Members
Posts: 2,901
Joined: 19-June 03
Member No.: 4,775

QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)

Since the zoom is only neccessary to ID targets, you can get away with manaballs from the sniper very easily.

But then your astral signature would be painted over everything for at least the next six hours, making you pretty easy to track?

Eyeless Blond

Nov 17 2004, 06:34 AM

Post #55

Decker on the Threshold

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,922
Joined: 14-March 04
Member No.: 6,156

QUOTE (Rory Blackhand)

Very interesting point. I have often said that the vision modifiers should be staged for range. But the range would be visual range, rather than weapon range. If effective visual range was staged into short, medium, long and extreme, I would not have a problem with the penalties doubling each stage. When firing at extreme ranges with open sights I find just fixing on the target is half the battle.

If a figure was standing in a grove of trees 5 meters away he might be difficult to spot, hence the trees would give partial cover, but at 500 meters the same individual is going to be immensly more difficult to spot let alone target with a clean shot in trees at that range. The little bit of penalty you get for firing at extrme range just does not accuratly reflect this magnification of visual penalties at range in my opinion. But as I said it would have to be based on visual range, ie a scope increases visual range.

Indeed. In fact, I'd say vision in general is one thing SR and most other games don't handle well at all. There really should have been general range limits for human sight, each increment of which causes mists, rains, and other environmental effects to double in intensity. This would have also helped with this ridiculous situation we have now of a mage being theoretically able to stand in a helicopter above Seatle and pick off every person for miles with well-placed Manabolts without so much as a pair of binoculars.

Kagetenshi

Nov 17 2004, 06:58 AM

Post #56

Manus Celer Dei

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,012
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802

QUOTE (Crusher Bob)

The rigger sniper is a pretty good choice too. Put some sniper rifles on condor drones and go to town. You can even use sensor enhanced gunnery.

Miniblimp sniper wars.

~J

Teulisch View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 07:20 AM Post #57
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965	Well..... Extreme range is 9, 5 with smartlink 2+rangefinder, for a TN 7 on called shots. With a scope, you cant use the smartlink, so its TN 8. Now, -1 for aim, -1 for stationary target, we can get a TN of 5 before vision and cover add in. Flare compensation will get rid of glare penalties, and thermographic vision can ignore mist and light fog/smoke/rain, with a mere +1 for heavy fog/smoke/rain if cyber. Low light give the best modifier for partial lighting. so a mere +5 with the right cybereyes in bad conditions., bring the TN to 10 Ultrasound, while possibly usefull, would be a bad idea as it gives away your position, and may not be usefull at extreme range of a sniper rifle. +4 for partial cover, for a TN of 14 (15 if moving), and you get only one shot. On the other hand, a non-cyber human with a scope needs a TN of ~26 (minimal light, heavy rain, mist, glare from streetlights; or TN 19 if max +8 vision). in both cases, it will require several stealth rolls to get in postion, as well as athletics for climbing (and a penalty for wet slippery surfaces). failure at either is lethal (fall X stories, or have a lone star helecopter shine a spotlight on). And after you get your ONE shot, even with a silencer, those bodygaurds will know someone is shooting at them from your direction. They may have a -3 or -4 to locate where the sound came from with the right cyberear enhancements. I dont think a sniper is overpowered. Not if they have to survive lugging a gun around before AND after the shooting in 2064 seattle. Most creative concealment i can think of is to hide it in a bow that resembles a extra-large electronic keyboard. With just the sympathetic magic in SOTA 2063, the casing from your rifle could be a material link if you leave it behind. its not a good link, but its enough to make your day unplesant. Additional ways to annoy a sniper: Alpha+ synthetic cyberskull, damage dosent stage up for headshots (with room for 1 integrity enhancement for +1 body). Body doubles with the real target disguised as a gaurd. And figureheads where the second in command was the real leader.

ES_Riddle

Nov 17 2004, 09:43 AM

Post #58

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 210
Joined: 8-October 04
Member No.: 6,736

QUOTE (Luke Hardison)

QUOTE (ES Riddle)

Since the sniper will not be able to put combat pool into a called shot to bypass armor if he wants a target number of 2 (pg. 107, SR3, "take aim"), he has the choice of a lot of dice or full armor.

No. He can use all the combat pool he wants for the shot. He can't use it on anything between the time he starts aiming and the time he shoots, or else he looses the benifit of aiming. If you read the combat pool part that way, you also have to interpret the paragraph above that one to say that taking a shot instantly makes you loose your aimed shot bonus ....

Good point. I guess my gut feeling made me read what I wanted to read and ignore the rest. Combat pool on a long-aimed shot doesn't make any sense in my opinion. I'm so smart that I'm going to shoot you dead just seems a little silly to me in "combat" situations that lacks snap decisions.

Arethusa View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 09:49 AM Post #59
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	Remember that in SR, as the game lacks a perception attribute, Intelligence handles that. In the case of combat pool, it's an amalgam of tactical reasoning, quick thinking, and, before any of that happens, sensory perception. Abstract and perhaps sloppy, but there is an amount of internal logic in allowing combat pool in longer term actions.

ES_Riddle

Nov 17 2004, 09:57 AM

Post #60

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 210
Joined: 8-October 04
Member No.: 6,736

QUOTE (Teulisch)

Well.....
Extreme range is 9, 5 with smartlink 2+rangefinder, for a TN 7 on called shots.
With a scope, you cant use the smartlink, so its TN 8.
Now, -1 for aim, -1 for stationary target, we can get a TN of 5 before vision and cover add in.

Flare compensation will get rid of glare penalties, and thermographic vision can ignore mist and light fog/smoke/rain, with a mere +1 for heavy fog/smoke/rain if cyber. Low light give the best modifier for partial lighting. so a mere +5 with the right cybereyes in bad conditions., bring the TN to 10
Ultrasound, while possibly usefull, would be a bad idea as it gives away your position, and may not be usefull at extreme range of a sniper rifle.
+4 for partial cover, for a TN of 14 (15 if moving), and you get only one shot.

Your sniper isn't aiming long enough. If we assume a skill of 6 (which a sniper character should have at minimum), then you should put in -2 more from aiming. There will also be a second shot, since all of the sniper rifles in shadow run are semi-automatic, IIRC. This means that you'll be looking at a TN of 12 in the worst conditions if you have a well-setup chargen sniper. Take away the called shot and you will triple your number of successes since you're only looking for a 10. If you started with a specialization in your rifle of choice and have increased your skill by 1 point, then you'll be down to TN 11 (9 without the called shot) in a worst-case scenario against a stationary target. In all reality your second shot has very little chance of hitting in this case since your aim mods are gone. In a situation that is better than trying to take out a poorly lit figure in heavy rain from two-thirds of a mile away your target number will be much, much lower, and your second shot will be the one that puts the target beyond any hope of biotech/healing magic.

Rory Blackhand

Nov 17 2004, 11:42 AM

Post #61

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 177
Joined: 23-February 03
Member No.: 4,141

This is all great guys, but it is not dark and raining 24/7. Nor do powerful NPCs wait until it is to move about. With a mobile platform to fire from like the DC snipers had a PC can create chaos. Your ranges in a city will be limited though with that set up. Getting your kit up to the top of a modern sky scraper to increase your stand off range would be the challenge.

QUOTE

And after you get your ONE shot, even with a silencer, those bodygaurds will know someone is shooting at them from your direction. They may have a -3 or -4 to locate where the sound came from with the right cyberear enhancements.

You made some good points in your post, but a 7.62 round will lose the distinctive "cracking" sound it makes at ranges past 600 meters. In other words, with no way to see the impact and triangulate, the target will not have a clue he is even under fire because the rounds will be silent at those greater ranges.

Nikoli View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 01:43 PM Post #62
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	And, well, let's face it. Dedicated sniper role in military terms is almost a suicide mission. After you've torqued off the opposition, do you really think they aren't going to throw EVERYTHING they can short of FAE to rid themselves of a determined sniper. After 3 or 4 shots, suppressive fire, grenades and if available, mortar rounds will be inbound. there's very little to do for it. Even the US military is moving away from the dedicated sniper role, and moving towards the Designated marksman (in the field, off base). His weapon has a longer barrel, a better scope and might have a different stock configuration, but it's not a 2+ meter anti-material rifle like we see in the movies. It's just not cost effective for the few targets they'd be able to neutralize. With the redesign, he uses the same ammo his teammates use, if he falls, anyone can pickup and use his weapon with their own ammo, or they can grab his ammo for their weapon and the configuration won't be so different that the weapon would be useless in non-longshot situations. On base, counter snipers would be the more likely to use the huge rifles as they will have the benefit of not having to lug a 12 Kg weapon over several Km through nasty weather nor have to worry about ammo concerns and they'd have the benefit of cover and literally dozens of spotters assisting. Chances are in a Shadowrun situation a field sniper isn't all that likely to be using a "sniper rifle", it's just not cost effective.

Modesitt

Nov 17 2004, 03:36 PM

Post #63

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 316
Joined: 18-July 03
Member No.: 4,963

QUOTE

Extreme range is 9, 5 with smartlink 2+rangefinder, for a TN 7 on called shots.
With a scope, you cant use the smartlink, so its TN 8.
Now, -1 for aim, -1 for stationary target, we can get a TN of 5 before vision and cover add in.

Flare compensation will get rid of glare penalties, and thermographic vision can ignore mist and light fog/smoke/rain, with a mere +1 for heavy fog/smoke/rain if cyber. Low light give the best modifier for partial lighting. so a mere +5 with the right cybereyes in bad conditions., bring the TN to 10
Ultrasound, while possibly usefull, would be a bad idea as it gives away your position, and may not be usefull at extreme range of a sniper rifle.
+4 for partial cover, for a TN of 14 (15 if moving), and you get only one shot.

1. Why would you use a called shot, especially under the kind of conditions you outline later? Let's start with a base TN of 4 from rating 3 magnification(scope or otherwise).
2. Real snipers aren't samurai. You can't use a smartlink with a scope, taking out one of a Samurai's biggest bonuses. The sniper role is ideal for adepts. The sniper will have natural low-light, natural thermo, and flare compensation if he knows what he's doing. No modifier in partial lighting, no modifier in heavy fog/smoke/rain. The TN would still be 4.
3. Partial cover. Maybe. Our TN is now 8.
4. If the target is running, +2 mod. If he is just standing around, -1. Let's just say he's running, just to be pessimistic. +2 TN, so our TN is now 10.
5. 6 skill, spend 3 simple actions aiming(Approximately 4.5 seconds or less). -3 TN. Back down to 7.
6. The adept promptly makes everyone cry by throwing 18 dice(6 base, 6 combat pool, 6 improved ability) at the test.

He'll average something like 3 successes if he doesn't spend a karma to reroll failures, something which he may do if this is basically the one shot he has to make on the run. Then he takes a second shot without the benefit of his combat pool or aiming. Probably miss, but hey.

Or, the Adept can just skip all the stuff on vision modifiers, use the Blindsight power and close his eyes for +4 TN.

Tanka View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 03:39 PM Post #64
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715	2) At Long and Extreme distance, yes, you can.

Edward

Nov 17 2004, 03:48 PM

Post #65

Neophyte Runner

Group: Members
Posts: 2,073
Joined: 23-August 04
Member No.: 6,587

The best magical snipers don’t use spells to kill. They use a sniper rifle just like the mundane sniper. Spells like invisibility, stealth and levitate make getting to position with your man sized weapon almost trivial. With levitate and a fore grip and customised grip on the weapon you don’t even need to touch down to take the shot. And because all the spells are on you the only place your astral signature will be left is on you. And a rating 3 optical scope and a enhance aim spell 4 (-2 TN) works wonders. All spells on sustaining foci naturally.

As for penetrating magical targets I had a character working on a way to put a core of bio fibre or FAB 2 in large calibre rounds. He didn’t get anywhere unfortunately. And having a spirit use concealment on the bullet itself will make the anchoring focus with detect bullet linked to personal bulled barrier unreliable.

As to the target number. It will usually come out to 2 for a sniper. At extreme range we have 5 with the SL2 with range finder 7 for the head shot. 6 seconds to take the shot is not unlikely while he is going to his car. Based on 2 actions per combat turn witch is trivial to achieve I have 8 simple actions witch will allow me to have TN 2 with up to 2 points of penalty from other conditions.

The best counter to this being done to often is simply not to give runs that focus on killing somebody.

QUOTE

With just the sympathetic magic in SOTA 2063, the casing from your rifle could be a material link if you leave it behind. its not a good link, but its enough to make your day unplesant.

and a casing net/bag for your weapon is worth less than a single bullet for a baret 121and I have been using them just for my fingerprints.

QUOTE

I'm so smart that I'm going to shoot you dead just seems a little silly to me in "combat" situations that lacks snap decisions.

int represents perception as much as it dose knowledge. Also it would be silly to say no combat pull if you aim as that would often result in aiming making you less likely to hit (6 dice target 2 or 12 dice target 3)

Edward

ES_Riddle

Nov 17 2004, 06:12 PM

Post #66

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 210
Joined: 8-October 04
Member No.: 6,736

QUOTE (Modesitt)

6. The adept promptly makes everyone cry by throwing 18 dice(6 base, 6 combat pool, 6 improved ability) at the test.

Against TN 10, 18 dice will typically produce 1.5 successes. If you throw 20 dice, though (7 specialized base, 7 combat pool, 5 improved ability, 1 enhanced articulation), you will add another 1/6 of a success ;) I wouldn't say your second shot has no chance of hitting, if there is a karmic reroll on it, you will probably have 2 or 3 successes.

enhanced articulation-.3
boosted reflexes 1-.5
space for more 'ware-.2
5 improved ability (rifles)-2.5
5 improved stealth-1.25
Low-light, thermographic, flare compensation-.75
quick draw-.5
pulling out your sniper rifle and killing your opponent in 1.5 seconds-priceless

Tanka View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 06:20 PM Post #67
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715	stab Never use those damn "priceless" commercials again. Most overused crap I've ever had the displeasure of seeing sprout everywhere.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 06:23 PM Post #68
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	To counter Tanka's assertion: In Soviet Russia, joke overuses you. ~J

Wounded Ronin View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 06:23 PM Post #69
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383	Multiple opponents rather than just one bigshot. After the PC snipes out one person, have one of the NPCs scream out "SNIPAAAAAA!" with a funny accent and then have all the NPCs unload 40 rounds of suppressive fire on the PCs vantage point. And make them all be loading APDS. And then make one of them have a grenade launcher. EDIT: Wait, that's what Nikoli said.

Herald of Verjig...

Nov 17 2004, 06:26 PM

Post #70

Runner

Group: Members
Posts: 3,066
Joined: 5-February 03
Member No.: 4,017

QUOTE (tanka)

*stab*

Never use those damn "priceless" commercials again. Most overused crap I've ever had the displeasure of seeing sprout everywhere.

E-mail address: $0
Registering on Dumpshock: $0
Torquing tanka with this style: one painful stab wound

GoldenAri View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 07:04 PM Post #71
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 198 Joined: 26-December 03 Member No.: 5,935	So are my players the only ones where both the sam and the lookout are sporting sniper rifles with APDS (not barretts) instead of assault rifles? Aim once and fire, and you they drop someone every action they try.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 07:21 PM Post #72
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	That only works with low TNs. Dodging a single shot is easy unless you've got a lot of successes to dodge off or are increasing dodge TNs somehow (burst-fire/full-auto, wound mods, etc). ~J

GoldenAri View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 07:36 PM Post #73
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 198 Joined: 26-December 03 Member No.: 5,935	Heavy vision mods, smartlink 2, and aiming once every time. 13 dice (6 skill + 6 cp + 1 Enhanced art). Leads to a fair number of successes, small unit tactics keeps them with plenty of combat pool, and all it takes is one net success and the target is soaking a TN 10+ serious wound. There's 2 of them firing, and occationally the Troll heavy weapons platform.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 07:45 PM Post #74
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	But they're soaking the same thing, give or take, with an AR burst, only with the burst they need a single 5 to dodge instead of a 4, meaning they only dodge one-third of the time with a single die instead of one-half. Not to mention that the AR gives you suppressive fire versatility. ~J

GoldenAri View Member Profile	Nov 17 2004, 07:52 PM Post #75
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 198 Joined: 26-December 03 Member No.: 5,935	yeah, except that they don't have to deal with recoil in firing. and the amount of damage done tends to be higher. Singel Burst from an Assault rifle 10S with APDS against a target with 8 armor = Target soaks a 6S +1 TN to dodge +3 TN to hit Single round from a sniper rifle 14S with APDS against a target with 8 armor = Target soaks a 10S Loss of suppression fire (which is a good point) ... So I take it then they are the only ones.

« Next Oldest · Shadowrun · Next Newest »