I'm am running "Brainscan" with my group and I am thinking of ways to limit one players use of his 15D (think it is) sniper-rifle with APDS ammo. The group has generally been reluctant to use APDS because of threats that NPCs would start using too.

I don't mind the PC's to find ways to spoil the plot... thats just interesting.. but the sniper annoys me a little as it counters powerful single NPCs.
Bottomline is that I would like to make it more of a hassle... having that sniper in the back of the truck.

I was thinking about some routine police check of the van, or something like that

...also thinking about gang-attack as he killed the leader of "red hot nukes".. but I don't know how they could figure out who shot the 2 bullets. He picked him out from far away.

any other creative ideas ?

Make it so that the people he wants to snipe at are in doors and not by windows. Or ismply use settings where the sniper has no vantage point accessible.

Well, it could be the gang attacking randomly. Think wrong place, wrong time. The gang doesn't need to know they took out the leader, just use some dialogue that lets them know that with members vying for control the group has broken up into factions, trying to up the other in general mayhem. Another thing you could do is alter the run a little and put the NPCs indoors (which greatly reduces sniper ability) or have "fakes" of the target. Surgically altered duplicates open up all manner of things, especially with cultured bioware, matching the target's DNA 100%. The random inspection's a good idea but you could also make him carry it somewhere. Unless the weapon breaks down well, traveling with it will be incredibly hard, especially if they have to pass through metal detectors at some point.

Or just let the PCs blast the poor chump into steaming hamburger. If you try to weasel out *every* time that the PCs try to do something other than go in guns blazing (or whatever or preferred method of resolution is) then they will tend to do that, event when it is not 'appropriate'.

If they've planned out a devilish ambush that will level the bad guys without any of them even knowing they are under attack, much less have a chance to get a shot off, then let the do it. It's not like god has it in for them.

The real question is how can I keep the sniper rifle from being able to solve *every* problem, not how can I keep the sniper rifle from solving *any* problem.

There are plenty of limiters on what a sniper can do:

Time, setting up a show requires that the sniper get into position ahead of time, in addition this usually requires stealthy movement, which is even slower.

Line of sight, to shoot something, the sniper nned to be able to get LOS to the target (we'll ignor shooting through walls and stuff). Plenty of things take place inside, or outside where lines of sight are difficult to obtain.

Movement, if the bad buys move away from the 'covered area' then the sniper will have to come up with something else.

Counter sniper. Have the bad guys wear 'sniper finder' microphones, so that the sound of the bullet is carefully triangulated and then the snipers position hit by drones, artilliery, etc.

Note that the sniper should still be useful at least some of the time

and also... are we doing it right by not giving any combat pool to help the damage soak, because of surprise?

...because no karma pool will save you from 15D APDS with 10-12 sucesses without karma pool.

hmm.. just thought about using the "hand of god" karma option. That is an option for an important NPC I would think.

One assumes the character is using the Barrett 121 rifle (it's the only one I know with a damage code like that). There's a few things you can do...
First, limit the supply of ammo. Those Barrett rounds aren't easy to come by, and if the player is up against more targets than he has (and can get) ammo, he'll have to choose his targets wisely.
Second, drones and vehicles. IIRC drones use the same vehicle damage reduction rules as vehicles, and APDS doesn't help against vehicle armour, meaning that 14D-halves-armour weapon is suddenly doing 7S and the target not only gets full benefit of its armour, it's probably got control pool too.
Third, play merry hell with Line of Sight. While lethal, sniper rifles have their effectiveness significantly reduced in tight terrain, and he can only shoot at what he can see while a goon with an AK98 can always lob a launched grenade in his general direction...
Fourth, a sniper directs a specific threat at a specific individual, meaning the Detect Enemies spell makes for a great early warning system.
Fifth, any sniper who sits still and plinks for too long is likely to attract a significant amount of fire. Any combat-trained troops are likely to know to scatter, find cover, locate the sniper and then suppress him with autofire and/or light artillery (mortars are great for this). He'll have to relocate, which means keeping his head down to avoid being spotted. Give him significant TN penalties for firing a sniper rifle from an unbraced position.
Finally, the best thing to do to a sniper it so pit him against an opposing countersniper. Not only does that tie his big gun up for a while, the player will be most chuffed when/if he finally takes out his nemesis.

-JH.

Detect Spells are range limited (Magic x 10 meters and extended versions magic X 100 iirc), a lot of snipers will be setup outside the 100 meter mark, so your targets will need the extended version of detect enemies.

Hmm, I notice that detect enemies only works for the target himself, Ie a bodyguard can't use it to find guys who want to whack the target and have no interest in the bodyguard. Better develop a 'detect enemies of the president' spell...

Add a counter sniper into one of the missions.
It won't stop him from sniping, but it will scare the shit out of him when a couple of rounds land right next to his position and it will make him nervous from then on.

I reduce the damage code one level as a house rule. AP rounds in general are great for going through armor, but don't do near as much damage as a standard ball or hollow point.

Alas, assuming that the gun fire 50 cal browning, even AP rounds will blow a fist sized hole in you.

I think any gaming group has had a problem sniper charecter. But in my groups the super powerful sniper was never near the action, or it would move very quickly away. I don't think it was ever on purpose, it just happened that way. In any case, it kept his Barret away. (Why do all snipers have to use that freakin gun !?!?)

Most sniper characters I've had have ignored the Barrett- the weapon's pricy, the ammo even more so, and it can only fire APDS. By contrast the Walther is more stable and allows you to choose ammo best suited for the target, the Ranger SM3 can be broken down to conceal when you're getting to your vantage point (downside is its tendency to fall out of alignment easily), and the Remington 950 is cheap-as-chips, infinitely tailorable, can be covered by a permit for legal use and effective enough against anything short of a troll in Milspec armour (try fitting one with a silencer, Smartlink-II and Rangefinder, then chamber Glasers and go for unarmoured parts of the target). Personally I go for the Remington unless I really need the range a 'true' sniper rifle provides.

-JH.

If your sniper character is unbalanceing your game use some of the conceal and cover suggestions, or indoor suggestions. Nature Spirits, Elementals, and Watchers can be great for flushing out a sniper without him knownig.... then bring the house down on him....I HATE A DAMN SNIPER!

Because they're idiots.

The Barett 121 is simply a waste of money. Since it can only use APDS rounds, it makes the sniper a one trick pony. He can kill people...and...uh...kill people.

-No gel rounds. This makes taking people alive much more difficult, especially if your GM is fond of deadlier over-damage.

-No AV rounds. Vehicle armor 7+ makes you cry.

-No ex-explosive rounds. This being a downside depends on how your GM deals with APDS vs barriers. Does he halve the barrier rating solely for the purposes of shooting through or does he halve it for the purposes of damaging the barrier too? If the former, this is a downside. If the latter, it's not. A 14S sniper rifle with ex-explosive rounds does funny things to barriers. If you shot a rating 12 barrier once, you would create a 1.5 meter hole. Shooting a rating 16 barrier would create a half-meter hole.

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As for dealing with snipers...

If he lacks vision enhancements, you can use smoke, glare, invisibility, etc to ruin his day. Or use illusions to make multiple copies of the target. Or just stop using single bad guys and start using groups of enemies. Or give the bad guy an ally spirit that looks just like him. Or roving mobs of air elementals or drones looking for anyone with a rifle in the area.

Don't APDS rounds function as AV against vehicles? Or is it the other way around? Been a while since I looked at those rules.

Uhm, no. AV ammo functions as APDS against metahuman targets. Hence AV being "anti-vehicular." It'd be pretty pointless if you could just use APDS for that.

Assuming that the sniper is beyond the range of an extended Detect (Guns) (which anyone who would routinely make themself a target for snipers should have security mages casting like mad), he is at least at long range (6 force, 6 magic => 360 meters away or detected). That means if he has a SL-2 and a range finder he will be looking for 5's if he is calling a shot to bypass armor, 3's if he isn't (this also assumes he doesn't have any modifiers for visibility and can even get the line of sight from 1/4 mile away).

Couple that with an achoring focus with Detect Bullets and Armor. Since the sniper will not be able to put combat pool into a called shot to bypass armor if he wants a target number of 2 (pg. 107, SR3, "take aim"), he has the choice of a lot of dice or full armor. If this guy is someone important, he should be wearing second skin under his clothes, probably have on armored clothing as well, and toss on another 6+ points of armor from the armor spell. If he is really important he may have a Detect Bullets+Physical barrier anchoring focus also (probably from a different mage so that she doesn't die from drain when they get triggered). All of those things together could probably get to around an armor of 14 or more before the APDS kicks in. With karmic rerolls and a decent body, the situation for a well prepared person (who has a trauma damper and platelet factory, as well) may result in the ability to live through the surprise round of a sniper attack. If they have people prepared to lay down supressive fire on the snipers location they may even live to see another day.

Also IIRC the Barrett 121 is as long as the average person id tall and either can't be broken down or takes a lot of effort to do so. Try playing up the difficulties of hauling the thing around. Make it so that they don't have a lot of time to set up so they can't take it in dismantled or if they do then they have to hand around and risk the chance of being noticed.

Remember, almost all vision modifiers stack. don't be afraid of glare, smoke, mist, light rain, etc.

Also, constant sniping of the target is the mark of a relative amateur, as sniping is more for demoralization than it is for killing (militarily speaking. Kill a guy, team is pissed at shooter, wound a guy so he dies slowly and painfully, team is agonized over wathing friend die slowly and they gotta live with not being willing to go fetch him)
Modern security forces would be very aware of counter-sniper tactics and will make use of them when necessary, those tree's in the atrium aren't just for looks and oxygen, they provide 'cover' as well.
Sniping isn't easy, nothing fully negates the vision mods. if you are giving the shooter the bare minimum of TN's then you are doing a disservice to the player (lack of challenge) and the game designers.
TN mods quickly add up and repair the perceived lack of balance

If the job is to kill somebody expect the sniper to steal the show. With the exception of those that rarely if ever leave a building he will do the job. So don’t give them to many assassination runs. Or give them runs along the lines of “find and eliminate the person that did X. once they know who did it the sniper can show of his skills and still feal like a useful character but the entire party was needed to work out who it was he needed to kill.

Also the Barrett (if that is what he is using) is a rare weapon with specialised ammunition. It is possible to track its purchase more than most other weapons.

Also use the other ideas suggested above. In order to make the game fun for all however you should let him use his signature skill a fair portion of the time.

As to the gang there the first question. Was he in combat with the rest of the teem at the time (or where they on the seen soon after). If so and the teem is known to include a sniper it will become gang verses teem (not gang verses sniper).

If this was not the case there are 3 ways they could work it out.
1) sniper was spotted. Make a perception check with a very high DC for those near the leader. If they succeed they have some clew as to the identity of the sniper.
2) sniper left some evidence where he shot from, camera footage or ritual links are possible but the gang is unlikely to be able to locate this.
3) next time the sniper is in a bar have him get into a bragging contest with a stranger or lese acquaintance. Have the subject of the assassination of the gang leader come up. “I would shore like to shake the hand of the man that pulled that off, killed the king and left them scurrying around like a swarm of ants without a trail to follow” if he claims responsibility it will get back to the gang, no roll he should have known better than to brag.

If none of these is logical (and he fails to fall for the trap) he gets away with it. It can happen if your good enough and on this occasion he was. Maybe he will get sloppy next time.

If you want the truly disgusting sniper use a mage. With a sniper rifle. Sustaining focuses for levitate, invisibility, stealth, maybe enhance aim. Perhaps masking, a spirit near by using concealment on him. Shoot just of strait down. The opposition will focus on the buildings and for relatively little movement you can make them think there are multiple snipers. The difficulty is recoil because there is nothing to brace against.

Edward

Why doesn't it make sense?

~J

ok....you might be thinking of this APDS ammo.

In which case, I will assure you that yes, it will go through a vehicle.

OTOH, SR's APDS is refering to small caliber APDS that are designed to go through body armor, not ship armor.
Same idea...smaller bullet.

Yes, same idea, smaller bullet, completely ridiculous. It does not make perfect sense at all, as has been attested to in so many threads in the past on exactly this subject. This thread is not about that, however, and in attempt to avoid derailing further, if you really want to know why APDS makes no goddamn sense at all, start a new thread.

Eyeless: Seattle isn't always rainy or misty. I know several people who live there/have lived there. They get more rain per annum, but it doesn't rain all the time.

This is still about the APDS stuff. I know it's been said before a gazillion times in other threads, but apparently it bears repeating.

One of my current chars is a sniper. I pursued and eventually scored a Barrett 121 (avail 14). I have yet to fire a single shot, because I'm very mindful of its legality issues. Most of the time, my char's preferred weapon is the Remington 950 using APDS rounds (I call it my "mini-Barrett"), or an Ares Alpha Assault Rifle using EX rounds when he has to get to medium range (50-150 meters).

That said, I don't think it's "stupid" for a sniper to own a Barrett as long as he's mindful when to use it and when not to use it. It's a tool in the arsenal like any other, and it definitely has its place. My GM recently ran an adventure w/ high lvl Bug Spirits, who were immune to virtually any non-magical attacks (up to and including power 10, and could not be staged up with Bursts or EX). The only thing that could touch these bugs was a Barrett and magic.

For me, when fighting conventional threats, I use the Remington. When fighting high-end opponents, like high lvl magic, military-grade armor, etc, bring the Barrett.

Well, if a sniper started to heavely use that kind of fire power around an area, the law (corps) would be hunting that person down.He is "breaking the rules".At least that is how I see it.

The Detect Guns (or Bullets) Anchoring Focus combo always cracks me up. The Focus would go active almost immediately in any area with security, or gangs, or ...

The Range is Force * Magic, which is pretty much guaranteed to include someone with a pistol, and the spell doesn't distinguish between holstered weapons and ones that are being brandished.

Detect Enemies is a better spell for an anti-sniper Focus.

As for 'breaking the rules' ... it isn't like the normal Shadowrun is picking Daisies for Aunt Clara.

Use Detect Fast Projectile instead, which only shows solid objects which fit inside a m^2 cube, weigh between 0.2 and 5,000 grams, and that are travelling faster than 50m/s.

I prefer the Detect Anything Trying to Shoot Me, Dammit spell.

On the topic of what to do about a sniper, astral patrols can ruin a snipers day(especially spirits who can materialize although even a watcher can give the guys position away)...does your group leave any astral guards with the sniper...

If they don't he could have a nice fire elemental sitting right behind him, and if he does good work boneheads your shiney astral spirit buddies really gave you position away.

Their best options are 1)Masked ward(time consuming) 2)Hiding in dense foliage or some other non suspicious biomatter 3)High background count

Do they include these kind of countermeasure in their plans?

Not that every group they want to ambush should have this kind of astral overwatch, but if they like to keep using the tactics it may start to dissuade them and any "big time" NPCs might have along some astral backup.

In keeping with the general tone of these suggestions - the challenge isn't so much preventing shots from your sniper killing key characters, it's making getting set-up and hidden in a place with line of sight to your enemy while carrying a really big gun a serious challenge that requires serious planning and preparation.

In any realistic game featuring guns a sniper who is able to set up and get the drop on an enemy is going to be pretty deadly. The key is going to be being very realistic about smuggling the gun around, finding an approriate spot without being seen, climbing a fire escape carying a human sized weapon, getting your enemy where you want them, etc etc. That's going to take a group effort, and if they want to run combats in that way then, as long as you make it a challenge to do so, let them have their fun.

Some effects (such as rain and fog) would not allow a scope to improve visual range. and don’t even think of using ultra sound vision in the rain.

Edward

It just dawned on me from this thread, that a sniper/magic user should be really effective. Optical scopes, Stealth magic, backup spirits/elementals. Am I way off base?

No, they work great, if your team doesn't mind the mage refusing to get within 100 meters of any known danger.

And leaving their astral signature splattered all over the target area. (Hanging around to clean up isn't a good idea for a sniper.)