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> Implants at chargen, Player wants to buy them uninstalled
tisoz
post Nov 17 2004, 09:19 PM
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Had something interesting come up with a new group. Never had it happen before. A player wants to pay for his cyberware and bioware out of starting resources, but doesn't want to have them be pre-installed. Seems he read the back of M&M and saw he could probably get an essence/bio index reduction (looks like a good possibility especially with a karma re-roll) by having them done in game. He hasn't asked for the surgery to be "free", as I've never figured in extra cost for surgery when someone gets cyber or bio at chargen before.

What would you rule?

What if he asks for the surgery to be prefigured into the cost of the 'ware?

He has contacts and story, everything makes sense, somewhat. I've just never had it come up before.

One problem I see is him missing the first adventure. Even this isn't written in stone though. He may get magical healing and be fine in a day. Which brings up another question. Does first aid apply to wounds sustained by surgery?

The other idea was to backdate the surgery to give hime time to recover. Essentially, his character starts a month, or however long, before the first adventure and gets charged lifestyle for the time.

Thoughts are welcome.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 17 2004, 10:09 PM
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"Cheaper" impant essence cost and "Cheaper" bio-index cost is associated with when the items are created not what clinic they are installed in. When you buy "regular" cyberware, it can't become "delta" cause you got it installed at a delta-clinic, the fact is, it's still regular-grade cyberware. Same goes for Bioware, you need have the stuff cultured when you buy it, not after the fact.

Go buy tires from a flea market and then getting them installed at the porsche dealership doesn't make them porsche tires magically, they will still suck.

The only thing you runner is going to get is a big medical bill for the surgery since that's all shrugged off at chargen.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Nov 17 2004, 10:10 PM
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Let him pay extra for non-standard pre-game surgical procedures. Let him know that the results may not be as good as just buying it at base cost before the game, and use all the surgery rules to determine effects and total cost. If he doesn't put enough cash behind the idea, the attempt may backfire, if he does spend the cred, then he bought slightly better augmentations than normal at appropriately higher cost.

Grinder: he's talking about the slightly reduced essense cost option for the surgery test.
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Shadow
post Nov 17 2004, 10:15 PM
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I would say let him buy them at a reduces cost (since no surgery is used) at char gen, then let him get a piece installed per gaming session. Since recovery time is now a factor.
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Tanka
post Nov 17 2004, 10:17 PM
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Buying 'ware in-game doesn't give a discount, and you still have to pay for surgery.

Being that you can safely ignore in-game rules (unless it says otherwise) at chargen, then you shouldn't reduce the cost of the 'ware at all.
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Teulisch
post Nov 17 2004, 10:22 PM
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Well.. no reason you cant, but bioware is organic tissue, he will need an apropriate storage unit for that, and a safe place to put the stuff that wont be robbed.

But really, he would be better off starting with the gear that will let him live long enough to afford the betaware upgrades.

Rather than go though all the hassle, i would recomend letting him buy the surgury options at chargen as edges. +1 for 5% off bioware, +2 for 5% on cyberware.

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FlakJacket
post Nov 17 2004, 10:22 PM
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QUOTE (tisoz)
He hasn't asked for the surgery to be "free", as I've never figured in extra cost for surgery when someone gets cyber or bio at chargen before.

What if he asks for the surgery to be prefigured into the cost of the 'ware?

At character creation you don't have to pay any implant costs, it's a freebie. If he wants to try this though then you absolutely have to add in the costs of the surgery and healing process. That's the trade-off. If you buy it at creation then you don't pay street index or anything but have to take the standard essence cost, if you do it in-game then you pay all of the costs but get the chance of a reduced essence cost. The player doesn't get to have it both ways.

Much as it screams munchkin, I'd say allow it. You don't restrict what other players buy and get to keep in-game like the riggers vehicles. Just make sure to hit them up with every last little hassle. For an evil idea you could just rule that depending on how much 'ware they want to implant, it may be too much at once and they have to have multiple operations. That's multiple costs and stretches of down time whilst they recover and aren't earning before they can go back in for the next operation.

QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Nov 17 2004, 10:09 PM)
"Cheaper" impant essence cost and "Cheaper" bio-index cost is associated with when the items are created not what clinic they are installed in.  When you buy "regular" cyberware, it can't become "delta" cause you got it installed at a delta-clinic, the fact is, it's still regular-grade cyberware.  Same goes for Bioware, you need have the stuff cultured when you buy it, not after the fact.

Yes you can. It's one of the Surgical Options from the surgery section of Man & Machine that deal with implanting 'ware. You're thinking of the different grades of 'ware- Alpha, Beta etc.
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Rev
post Nov 17 2004, 11:15 PM
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He should probably read those rules again also. I was looking into it a few months ago and except for one bug exploit in the system the surgery rules make it almost impossible to have significant cyberware installed without negative options resulting and pretty much flat impossible to install say beta wired relexes. Trying for a positive option just makes it more difficult. :(

The bug (buying tons of extra doctors to help with the surgery), however, makes any installation easy and positive options nearly automatic. :)

They aren't good rules. :|
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Da9iel
post Nov 17 2004, 11:50 PM
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TN for an implant 4 -1 for a clinic

What's so impossible about rolling four threes and a seven? BAM 10% essence savings. Find one more negative modifier (like rent hospital space) and you've got an typical die roll with a surgery skill of six (ignoring the hospital rating bonus as complimentary dice). The +2 threshold for each essence reduction option only acts like an open test that gets added onto the surgery roll. It's a little like determining wound effects (get hit with 6 boxes, better get at least one 6 on the soak roll).

Oops. You said beta ware. Yeah, get an additional doctor and/or a magician and don't count on the positive options. But with standard or even alpha it's easily doable.

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BitBasher
post Nov 17 2004, 11:52 PM
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This would cost an ASSLOAD of cash.

Each implant item would need it's own surgery or there's a TN penalty to the surgery for "second procedure performed this session". This makes the TN go up and the chance of a positive option drop dramatically. Add to that that he only gets the positive option at all if the doctor scores 3 (or is it 4?) sucesses.

He would then have to wait the full healing time and pay for healing after each surgery. This would all make the surgery FAR more expensive than the cyberware in the back end for a negligible benefit, if any. It's entirely possible he'll end up with negative options.

So yeah, I'd be okay with that. It's flushing a number of char gen points down the toilet. In fact, I'm pretty positive it'd be cheaper in cash and essence to just buy alpha off the bat unless he's already starting there.
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JaronK
post Nov 18 2004, 12:07 AM
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I don't see why people think it's so hard to get positive options with the surgery rules. In my game we have a starting medic/face character, who, with a totally normal, legal starting build, has:

1) Rating 6 Alpha Clinic, fully staffed
2) Biotec 6
3) Knowledge: Medicine 6
4) Microscopic Vision
5) Enhanced Articulation

That means when she wants to add alphaware gear to a runner, her base TN is 2 (4 - 2 (microscopic vision) - 1 (in a medical clinic) + 1 (It's Alphaware)) throwing 7 regular dice and 12 complimentary dice, and she can have up to 5 other doctors (since a rating 6 clinic has 6 total doctors on staff) for a possible -5 to the target number, though realistically not all are on call at once and I would ususally say two are working at any given time, with more on call for emergencies. So if she's implanting for a team mate, she'll have two other doctors helping out, giving a base TN of 0. When she gets Nanoware (she doesn't have any yet) the base TN will drop to -2, and since there's a shaman in the party, she's looking at TN -1 now, -3 when she gets nanoware, when working on anyone other than the shaman. So right now, with a starting character in a starting group, she's got a base TN of -1. With essence reduction (+2), rugged (+1), and redundancy (+2) she's got a TN of 4, averaging 9 successes and creating some seriously durable cyberware.

JaronK
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tisoz
post Nov 18 2004, 12:15 AM
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QUOTE (Rev)
He should probably read those rules again also. I was looking into it a few months ago and except for one bug exploit in the system the surgery rules make it almost impossible to have significant cyberware installed without negative options resulting and pretty much flat impossible to install say beta wired relexes. Trying for a positive option just makes it more difficult. :(

The bug (buying tons of extra doctors to help with the surgery), however, makes any installation easy and positive options nearly automatic. :)

They aren't good rules. :|

I had to re-read the rules and make a page of notes. See if I got this right.

Finding a facility is an Etiquette test of 4 + modifiers. Extra successes from this test can decrease time or increase gear rating (to a maximum of 6.)

The # of positive options can not exceed the Medicine skill or the rating of the gear being used. A cultured bioware equipped Delta Gear has a rating of 8. So the absolute highest number of positive options is 14 (6 succ. on etiquette test + rating 8.) This means the doctor would need a Medical skill of 14! Unlikely, even with knowsoft link and chipped skillsoft. (Though this probably causes a demand for rating 14 Medicine knowsofts. ;))

The Surgery test is a success test and an opened ended test. # of success determine maximum number of positive options. Opened ended test must exceed threshhold. When threshhold is met, any remaining successes and positive options are disregarded. (Need 2 successes to overcome negative options and a third to overcome no effect.)

So a doctor with a Medicine skill of 9 (MJLBB contact) can get a possible 6 positive options, or a 30% reduction in essence or bio index. Couple with Alpha grade cyber (.8 * .7) gives a .56 essence cost.

Same contact has cyber implant skill 10. I can see him getting a TN of 2 or less for the success test and a threshhold of 8 or 9 on the open test. This is allowing only a single -1 modifier for additional doctors (it doesn't say -1 for each additional.) Base TN4 for cyber, -2 for renting space in alpha hospital (rating 9 gear * 300 * 3 * 4 for beta grade = 32400), -2 for gear better grade than necc., -1 additional doctor, -1 magical care during surgery, +1 each prior procedure (or essence or bioware modifier if he breaks them up), +1 patient awakened.

The contact has enough karma to reroll twice so will probably get 8-10 succ.. Don't see getting an 8 or 9 being a problem either.

No one commented on the staging down the wound. So ruling that out, as long as he stays with a essence loss of 2.09 or less a starting mage with Heal 6 can have him walking out of operating room without any damage. Crap, noticed the Paramed Shaman has a Treat 7 spell and qualifies as magical care and additional doctor, with a Biotech and Medicine of 4+.

Am I missing something?
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JaronK
post Nov 18 2004, 12:18 AM
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I don't think you can stack Essence Reductions... can you? 'Cause that's nasty.

JaronK
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BitBasher
post Nov 18 2004, 12:22 AM
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Well, off the top of my head you're missing that with any roll that is an open roll you spend one karma for the first individual die you want to reroll and two for the second, so forth and so on. So with three karma pool you can reroll two individual dice.

Don't forget the cost and time of the surgical profile, which is a buttload in an of itself. Then there's the cost of updating the profile for each new surgery, as the profile has changed as new implants are added.

Also, many SR's aren't likely to know the literal best published doctor in any book, with far better gear than necessary.
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tisoz
post Nov 18 2004, 12:42 AM
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QUOTE (BitBasher @ Nov 17 2004, 07:22 PM)
Well, off the top of my head you're missing that with any roll that is an open roll you spend one karma for the first individual die you want to reroll and two for the second, so forth and so on. So with three karma pool you can reroll two individual dice.

Don't forget the cost and time of the surgical profile, which is a buttload in an of itself. Then there's the cost of updating the profile for each new surgery, as the profile has changed as new implants are added.

Also, many SR's aren't likely to know the literal best published doctor in any book, with far better gear than necessary.

I know the rules for rerolling the open test, I figure there's a chance or 2 of getting a six on the first roll and a good chance of getting an 8 or 9 on the rule of six roll. So he could reroll the failures on the standard success test a couple of times.

Remembered the cost of the pre-surgery stuff, but didn't see a good place to put it in, and I was too lazy too try to figure it up.;)

Ok, the Street Doc has a Surgery 8, Medicine 6. But I think he knows the elite one, I have the book and it's available. With a majority of it devoted to Contacts, it makes sense for everyone to give it a look.

[edit] Did notice the Threshhold for cyberware essence reduction is +2. Was looking only at bioware index reduction which is +1.[/edit]

What's the concensus on taking the same option multiple times? I was going by that it was ok [edit] based on applying the reduction as a single multiple. Sounds like it can be taken multiple times [/edit].
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Da9iel
post Nov 18 2004, 12:44 AM
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BitBasher: But it's not an open roll, its a success test with a weird threshold thing added on. A single karma will let you reroll anything that failed the target number. The weird threshold thing just provides an additional cap to options.

This post has been edited by Da9iel: Nov 18 2004, 12:45 AM
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Da9iel
post Nov 18 2004, 12:48 AM
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tisoz: In the paragraph about negative options, the book says that an option may be taken twice. Many here have interpreted that to mean that any option may be taken at most twice. I don't read it that way, but it does provide for a reasonable cap to essence reductions.
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ES_Riddle
post Nov 18 2004, 02:16 AM
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Since this is a starting character, the easiest option is to just let them buy positive surgery options as edges, with a cost equal to their threshold value (it's suggested as an option on 148-9).

As for having multiple doctors to reduce your TN's, the chart says "additional doctor(s) -1" so it doesn't matter how many assistants you have, you are capped at that -1.
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tisoz
post Nov 18 2004, 03:48 AM
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QUOTE (ES_Riddle)
Since this is a starting character, the easiest option is to just let them buy positive surgery options as edges, with a cost equal to their threshold value (it's suggested as an option on 148-9).


The problem is 6 positive cyberware reduce essence options would cost 12 edge points. There is a good possibility of achieving this without a substancial cost. 12 Build Points is 2 Skills at 6. Or all 6 attributes at 5 instead of 4. Or the difference between 1,000,000 and 200,000 of Resources. If he wants all bioware, it is only half as bad. Since the threshholds are different costs for cyber and bio, I'm guessing these costs are per piece of ware? Or a total of 18 Build Points if he wants them to cover both?

40 :nuyen: * Biotech skill seems cheap for Doctors fees. Even adding in the 20 :nuyen: * Medical skill to do the pre-op.

This was asked when I was contacting him about getting a group together and trying to have an idea for a character at the first meeting, so I don't know the full details. It gave me some time to get some opinions.

QUOTE
As for having multiple doctors to reduce your TN's, the chart says "additional doctor(s) -1" so it doesn't matter how many assistants you have, you are capped at that -1.


That's how I was looking at it.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 18 2004, 03:53 AM
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You guys know what the real trick is, right? Pay attention.

Wired Reflexes 3. Surgical Options: Essence Reduction 6 (12-point Edge).
Datajack. Surgical Options: Essence Cost 6 (6-point Flaw).
Chipjack. Surgical Options: Essence Cost 6 (6-point Flaw).

Do the math real quick and behold. ;)
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Da9iel
post Nov 18 2004, 03:58 AM
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At which point the GM thwaps you on the nose. Bad dog.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 18 2004, 04:02 AM
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"Bad dog?!" How dare you talk to me in such a tone without using any emoticons! Apologize now, sir, or I shall thrash you soundly.
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Da9iel
post Nov 18 2004, 04:09 AM
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The worlds smartest baby was born talking. The first thing he did was take his little fist and punch his dad in the forehead repeatedly saying, "How do you like it?! How do you like it?!"

*sneer*
[edit]Re-evaluation complete. See that wasn't so bad now, was it?[/edit]
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tisoz
post Nov 18 2004, 04:11 AM
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I don't think I want to propose taking them as edges and flaws then if it could open that can of worms.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 18 2004, 04:22 AM
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It's not a proposition. It's a canonical (if optional) rule.
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