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tisoz
Had something interesting come up with a new group. Never had it happen before. A player wants to pay for his cyberware and bioware out of starting resources, but doesn't want to have them be pre-installed. Seems he read the back of M&M and saw he could probably get an essence/bio index reduction (looks like a good possibility especially with a karma re-roll) by having them done in game. He hasn't asked for the surgery to be "free", as I've never figured in extra cost for surgery when someone gets cyber or bio at chargen before.

What would you rule?

What if he asks for the surgery to be prefigured into the cost of the 'ware?

He has contacts and story, everything makes sense, somewhat. I've just never had it come up before.

One problem I see is him missing the first adventure. Even this isn't written in stone though. He may get magical healing and be fine in a day. Which brings up another question. Does first aid apply to wounds sustained by surgery?

The other idea was to backdate the surgery to give hime time to recover. Essentially, his character starts a month, or however long, before the first adventure and gets charged lifestyle for the time.

Thoughts are welcome.
GrinderTheTroll
"Cheaper" impant essence cost and "Cheaper" bio-index cost is associated with when the items are created not what clinic they are installed in. When you buy "regular" cyberware, it can't become "delta" cause you got it installed at a delta-clinic, the fact is, it's still regular-grade cyberware. Same goes for Bioware, you need have the stuff cultured when you buy it, not after the fact.

Go buy tires from a flea market and then getting them installed at the porsche dealership doesn't make them porsche tires magically, they will still suck.

The only thing you runner is going to get is a big medical bill for the surgery since that's all shrugged off at chargen.
Herald of Verjigorm
Let him pay extra for non-standard pre-game surgical procedures. Let him know that the results may not be as good as just buying it at base cost before the game, and use all the surgery rules to determine effects and total cost. If he doesn't put enough cash behind the idea, the attempt may backfire, if he does spend the cred, then he bought slightly better augmentations than normal at appropriately higher cost.

Grinder: he's talking about the slightly reduced essense cost option for the surgery test.
Shadow
I would say let him buy them at a reduces cost (since no surgery is used) at char gen, then let him get a piece installed per gaming session. Since recovery time is now a factor.
Tanka
Buying 'ware in-game doesn't give a discount, and you still have to pay for surgery.

Being that you can safely ignore in-game rules (unless it says otherwise) at chargen, then you shouldn't reduce the cost of the 'ware at all.
Teulisch
Well.. no reason you cant, but bioware is organic tissue, he will need an apropriate storage unit for that, and a safe place to put the stuff that wont be robbed.

But really, he would be better off starting with the gear that will let him live long enough to afford the betaware upgrades.

Rather than go though all the hassle, i would recomend letting him buy the surgury options at chargen as edges. +1 for 5% off bioware, +2 for 5% on cyberware.

FlakJacket
QUOTE (tisoz)
He hasn't asked for the surgery to be "free", as I've never figured in extra cost for surgery when someone gets cyber or bio at chargen before.

What if he asks for the surgery to be prefigured into the cost of the 'ware?

At character creation you don't have to pay any implant costs, it's a freebie. If he wants to try this though then you absolutely have to add in the costs of the surgery and healing process. That's the trade-off. If you buy it at creation then you don't pay street index or anything but have to take the standard essence cost, if you do it in-game then you pay all of the costs but get the chance of a reduced essence cost. The player doesn't get to have it both ways.

Much as it screams munchkin, I'd say allow it. You don't restrict what other players buy and get to keep in-game like the riggers vehicles. Just make sure to hit them up with every last little hassle. For an evil idea you could just rule that depending on how much 'ware they want to implant, it may be too much at once and they have to have multiple operations. That's multiple costs and stretches of down time whilst they recover and aren't earning before they can go back in for the next operation.

QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Nov 17 2004, 10:09 PM)
"Cheaper" impant essence cost and "Cheaper" bio-index cost is associated with when the items are created not what clinic they are installed in.  When you buy "regular" cyberware, it can't become "delta" cause you got it installed at a delta-clinic, the fact is, it's still regular-grade cyberware.  Same goes for Bioware, you need have the stuff cultured when you buy it, not after the fact.

Yes you can. It's one of the Surgical Options from the surgery section of Man & Machine that deal with implanting 'ware. You're thinking of the different grades of 'ware- Alpha, Beta etc.
Rev
He should probably read those rules again also. I was looking into it a few months ago and except for one bug exploit in the system the surgery rules make it almost impossible to have significant cyberware installed without negative options resulting and pretty much flat impossible to install say beta wired relexes. Trying for a positive option just makes it more difficult. frown.gif

The bug (buying tons of extra doctors to help with the surgery), however, makes any installation easy and positive options nearly automatic. smile.gif

They aren't good rules. indifferent.gif
Da9iel
TN for an implant 4 -1 for a clinic

What's so impossible about rolling four threes and a seven? BAM 10% essence savings. Find one more negative modifier (like rent hospital space) and you've got an typical die roll with a surgery skill of six (ignoring the hospital rating bonus as complimentary dice). The +2 threshold for each essence reduction option only acts like an open test that gets added onto the surgery roll. It's a little like determining wound effects (get hit with 6 boxes, better get at least one 6 on the soak roll).

Oops. You said beta ware. Yeah, get an additional doctor and/or a magician and don't count on the positive options. But with standard or even alpha it's easily doable.

BitBasher
This would cost an ASSLOAD of cash.

Each implant item would need it's own surgery or there's a TN penalty to the surgery for "second procedure performed this session". This makes the TN go up and the chance of a positive option drop dramatically. Add to that that he only gets the positive option at all if the doctor scores 3 (or is it 4?) sucesses.

He would then have to wait the full healing time and pay for healing after each surgery. This would all make the surgery FAR more expensive than the cyberware in the back end for a negligible benefit, if any. It's entirely possible he'll end up with negative options.

So yeah, I'd be okay with that. It's flushing a number of char gen points down the toilet. In fact, I'm pretty positive it'd be cheaper in cash and essence to just buy alpha off the bat unless he's already starting there.
JaronK
I don't see why people think it's so hard to get positive options with the surgery rules. In my game we have a starting medic/face character, who, with a totally normal, legal starting build, has:

1) Rating 6 Alpha Clinic, fully staffed
2) Biotec 6
3) Knowledge: Medicine 6
4) Microscopic Vision
5) Enhanced Articulation

That means when she wants to add alphaware gear to a runner, her base TN is 2 (4 - 2 (microscopic vision) - 1 (in a medical clinic) + 1 (It's Alphaware)) throwing 7 regular dice and 12 complimentary dice, and she can have up to 5 other doctors (since a rating 6 clinic has 6 total doctors on staff) for a possible -5 to the target number, though realistically not all are on call at once and I would ususally say two are working at any given time, with more on call for emergencies. So if she's implanting for a team mate, she'll have two other doctors helping out, giving a base TN of 0. When she gets Nanoware (she doesn't have any yet) the base TN will drop to -2, and since there's a shaman in the party, she's looking at TN -1 now, -3 when she gets nanoware, when working on anyone other than the shaman. So right now, with a starting character in a starting group, she's got a base TN of -1. With essence reduction (+2), rugged (+1), and redundancy (+2) she's got a TN of 4, averaging 9 successes and creating some seriously durable cyberware.

JaronK
tisoz
QUOTE (Rev)
He should probably read those rules again also. I was looking into it a few months ago and except for one bug exploit in the system the surgery rules make it almost impossible to have significant cyberware installed without negative options resulting and pretty much flat impossible to install say beta wired relexes. Trying for a positive option just makes it more difficult. frown.gif

The bug (buying tons of extra doctors to help with the surgery), however, makes any installation easy and positive options nearly automatic. smile.gif

They aren't good rules. indifferent.gif

I had to re-read the rules and make a page of notes. See if I got this right.

Finding a facility is an Etiquette test of 4 + modifiers. Extra successes from this test can decrease time or increase gear rating (to a maximum of 6.)

The # of positive options can not exceed the Medicine skill or the rating of the gear being used. A cultured bioware equipped Delta Gear has a rating of 8. So the absolute highest number of positive options is 14 (6 succ. on etiquette test + rating 8.) This means the doctor would need a Medical skill of 14! Unlikely, even with knowsoft link and chipped skillsoft. (Though this probably causes a demand for rating 14 Medicine knowsofts. wink.gif)

The Surgery test is a success test and an opened ended test. # of success determine maximum number of positive options. Opened ended test must exceed threshhold. When threshhold is met, any remaining successes and positive options are disregarded. (Need 2 successes to overcome negative options and a third to overcome no effect.)

So a doctor with a Medicine skill of 9 (MJLBB contact) can get a possible 6 positive options, or a 30% reduction in essence or bio index. Couple with Alpha grade cyber (.8 * .7) gives a .56 essence cost.

Same contact has cyber implant skill 10. I can see him getting a TN of 2 or less for the success test and a threshhold of 8 or 9 on the open test. This is allowing only a single -1 modifier for additional doctors (it doesn't say -1 for each additional.) Base TN4 for cyber, -2 for renting space in alpha hospital (rating 9 gear * 300 * 3 * 4 for beta grade = 32400), -2 for gear better grade than necc., -1 additional doctor, -1 magical care during surgery, +1 each prior procedure (or essence or bioware modifier if he breaks them up), +1 patient awakened.

The contact has enough karma to reroll twice so will probably get 8-10 succ.. Don't see getting an 8 or 9 being a problem either.

No one commented on the staging down the wound. So ruling that out, as long as he stays with a essence loss of 2.09 or less a starting mage with Heal 6 can have him walking out of operating room without any damage. Crap, noticed the Paramed Shaman has a Treat 7 spell and qualifies as magical care and additional doctor, with a Biotech and Medicine of 4+.

Am I missing something?
JaronK
I don't think you can stack Essence Reductions... can you? 'Cause that's nasty.

JaronK
BitBasher
Well, off the top of my head you're missing that with any roll that is an open roll you spend one karma for the first individual die you want to reroll and two for the second, so forth and so on. So with three karma pool you can reroll two individual dice.

Don't forget the cost and time of the surgical profile, which is a buttload in an of itself. Then there's the cost of updating the profile for each new surgery, as the profile has changed as new implants are added.

Also, many SR's aren't likely to know the literal best published doctor in any book, with far better gear than necessary.
tisoz
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Nov 17 2004, 07:22 PM)
Well, off the top of my head you're missing that with any roll that is an open roll you spend one karma for the first individual die you want to reroll and two for the second, so forth and so on. So with three karma pool you can reroll two individual dice.

Don't forget the cost and time of the surgical profile, which is a buttload in an of itself. Then there's the cost of updating the profile for each new surgery, as the profile has changed as new implants are added.

Also, many SR's aren't likely to know the literal best published doctor in any book, with far better gear than necessary.

I know the rules for rerolling the open test, I figure there's a chance or 2 of getting a six on the first roll and a good chance of getting an 8 or 9 on the rule of six roll. So he could reroll the failures on the standard success test a couple of times.

Remembered the cost of the pre-surgery stuff, but didn't see a good place to put it in, and I was too lazy too try to figure it up.wink.gif

Ok, the Street Doc has a Surgery 8, Medicine 6. But I think he knows the elite one, I have the book and it's available. With a majority of it devoted to Contacts, it makes sense for everyone to give it a look.

[edit] Did notice the Threshhold for cyberware essence reduction is +2. Was looking only at bioware index reduction which is +1.[/edit]

What's the concensus on taking the same option multiple times? I was going by that it was ok [edit] based on applying the reduction as a single multiple. Sounds like it can be taken multiple times [/edit].
Da9iel
BitBasher: But it's not an open roll, its a success test with a weird threshold thing added on. A single karma will let you reroll anything that failed the target number. The weird threshold thing just provides an additional cap to options.
Da9iel
tisoz: In the paragraph about negative options, the book says that an option may be taken twice. Many here have interpreted that to mean that any option may be taken at most twice. I don't read it that way, but it does provide for a reasonable cap to essence reductions.
ES_Riddle
Since this is a starting character, the easiest option is to just let them buy positive surgery options as edges, with a cost equal to their threshold value (it's suggested as an option on 148-9).

As for having multiple doctors to reduce your TN's, the chart says "additional doctor(s) -1" so it doesn't matter how many assistants you have, you are capped at that -1.
tisoz
QUOTE (ES_Riddle)
Since this is a starting character, the easiest option is to just let them buy positive surgery options as edges, with a cost equal to their threshold value (it's suggested as an option on 148-9).


The problem is 6 positive cyberware reduce essence options would cost 12 edge points. There is a good possibility of achieving this without a substancial cost. 12 Build Points is 2 Skills at 6. Or all 6 attributes at 5 instead of 4. Or the difference between 1,000,000 and 200,000 of Resources. If he wants all bioware, it is only half as bad. Since the threshholds are different costs for cyber and bio, I'm guessing these costs are per piece of ware? Or a total of 18 Build Points if he wants them to cover both?

40 nuyen.gif * Biotech skill seems cheap for Doctors fees. Even adding in the 20 nuyen.gif * Medical skill to do the pre-op.

This was asked when I was contacting him about getting a group together and trying to have an idea for a character at the first meeting, so I don't know the full details. It gave me some time to get some opinions.

QUOTE
As for having multiple doctors to reduce your TN's, the chart says "additional doctor(s) -1" so it doesn't matter how many assistants you have, you are capped at that -1.


That's how I was looking at it.
Ol' Scratch
You guys know what the real trick is, right? Pay attention.

Wired Reflexes 3. Surgical Options: Essence Reduction 6 (12-point Edge).
Datajack. Surgical Options: Essence Cost 6 (6-point Flaw).
Chipjack. Surgical Options: Essence Cost 6 (6-point Flaw).

Do the math real quick and behold. wink.gif
Da9iel
At which point the GM thwaps you on the nose. Bad dog.
Ol' Scratch
"Bad dog?!" How dare you talk to me in such a tone without using any emoticons! Apologize now, sir, or I shall thrash you soundly.
Da9iel
The worlds smartest baby was born talking. The first thing he did was take his little fist and punch his dad in the forehead repeatedly saying, "How do you like it?! How do you like it?!"

*sneer*
[edit]Re-evaluation complete. See that wasn't so bad now, was it?[/edit]
tisoz
I don't think I want to propose taking them as edges and flaws then if it could open that can of worms.
Ol' Scratch
It's not a proposition. It's a canonical (if optional) rule.
tisoz
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 17 2004, 11:22 PM)
It's not a proposition.  It's a canonical (if optional) rule.

Are you developing a sense of humor that translates over the net?

I meant if he didn't bring it up, I certainly don't want to. Proposing we institute the optional canonical rule.
Ol' Scratch
No. Humor, much like emoticons, are highly overrated.
Voran
Is there a limit on how many implants you can put in per surgery? Chargen probably assumes you space it out enough that you heal free of charge, despite having crudy lifestyle ratings or a decent income/savings to cover you while you heal up.
ES_Riddle
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
You guys know what the real trick is, right? Pay attention.

Wired Reflexes 3. Surgical Options: Essence Reduction 6 (12-point Edge).
Datajack. Surgical Options: Essence Cost 6 (6-point Flaw).
Chipjack. Surgical Options: Essence Cost 6 (6-point Flaw).

Do the math real quick and behold. wink.gif

You can only have 2 negative options per piece of 'ware. This is never explicitly stated, but how the heck are you going to get more without being a ruleswhore? If I had a player who did that and said that their was nothing in the rules that say he can't, I would promptly show him what happens when you disregard the spirit of fair play.

Dammit, where is the emoticon of a smiley getting sniped in the head? I guess this will have to do dead.gif
Da9iel
Yes, it is explicitly stated. The Doctor, however, made a valid point. The build points can be evened out by choosing to increase the essence a percent on 2 trivial items and decreasing the essence by the same percent on a high essence item.
tisoz
QUOTE (Voran)
Is there a limit on how many implants you can put in per surgery?

No, but it modifies the TN.
ES_Riddle
QUOTE (Da9iel)
Yes, it is explicitly stated. The Doctor, however, made a valid point. The build points can be evened out by choosing to increase the essence a percent on 2 trivial items and decreasing the essence by the same percent on a high essence item.

I meant that it was never explicitly stated that you can't take so many negative options as flaws at chargen (it is very strongly implied since that is the only way it can work in game). The "that" I was refering to was the balancing a high essence cost item's reduction with low cost extra essence cost. If a player starts treating SR like a video game where they can exploit loopholes in the program, they deserve to have the GM show them what the insides of their character's head looks like by painting their brains on the wall.

A GM can kill a team of runners with no problems in 1 surprise round if he wants. It is only the spirit of fair play that keeps the GM from doing so to characters who haven't earned it in game. If a player wants to disregard the concept and rape some flaw in the game mechanics, the GM has full authority to disregard fair play as well. The end result will be that your sextuply essence reduced wire reflexes won't protect you from an adept who has 30 dice to throw at you with his sniper rifle and enough time to take aim down to TN 2.
toturi
QUOTE (ES_Riddle)
QUOTE (Da9iel @ Nov 18 2004, 01:04 AM)
Yes, it is explicitly stated. The Doctor, however, made a valid point. The build points can be evened out by choosing to increase the essence a percent on 2 trivial items and decreasing the essence by the same percent on a high essence item.

I meant that it was never explicitly stated that you can't take so many negative options as flaws at chargen (it is very strongly implied since that is the only way it can work in game). The "that" I was refering to was the balancing a high essence cost item's reduction with low cost extra essence cost. If a player starts treating SR like a video game where they can exploit loopholes in the program, they deserve to have the GM show them what the insides of their character's head looks like by painting their brains on the wall.

A GM can kill a team of runners with no problems in 1 surprise round if he wants. It is only the spirit of fair play that keeps the GM from doing so to characters who haven't earned it in game. If a player wants to disregard the concept and rape some flaw in the game mechanics, the GM has full authority to disregard fair play as well. The end result will be that your sextuply essence reduced wire reflexes won't protect you from an adept who has 30 dice to throw at you with his sniper rifle and enough time to take aim down to TN 2.

It does not matter that the players can exploit loopholes in the game, the GM can also exploit said loopholes. The GM is free to mirror image any rules loophole, however by the same coin any rule that is usable by the GM should be usable by the players.

There should be no fairplay on the GM's part other than not inventing new rules on the spot and not stretching disbelief in the game world so thin that you can see light through it. Yes, the sniper could kill the PC but is it believable that he is there at that place and time shooting at that PC? Just because a player is clever and used a rules loophole doesn't mean the PC deserves to die. It just mean the GM is justified in using that loophole now.
ES_Riddle
QUOTE (toturi)
There should be no fairplay on the GM's part other than not inventing new rules on the spot and not stretching disbelief in the game world so thin that you can see light through it. Yes, the sniper could kill the PC but is it believable that he is there at that place and time shooting at that PC? Just because a player is clever and used a rules loophole doesn't mean the PC deserves to die. It just mean the GM is justified in using that loophole now.

I'm talking about "fair play" from a purely metagame standpoint. I don't think foes should use honorable tactics unless that is in character for them. The fair play you're talking about (not making up new rules and not stretching disbelief) is pretty close to what I mean, so we agree there. I didn't mean to imply that the GM's first action towards the player about this would be killing the character. He should ask the player to reconsider that exploitation and perhaps take flaws that are going to actually balance the essence reduction rather than try to get something for nothing.

However, I don't think that a player is being clever by using a loophole. He is essentially cheating by twisting the intentions of the rules to get gain for no cost. For NPC's there is already pretty much no cost to having more cyber than should be possible (subject to limits, of course). A GM can cram those guys full of betaware or deltaware if he wants, so using this "exploit" in the system gains him nothing compared to the player who is actually getting something out of it. So since the player is going to cheat by exploiting this loophole, the GM is free to cheat by ignoring suspension of disbelief in this case. If you want to justify it in a rules sense, just think of it as a hunted 6 to balance out the free point of essence.

I do think your suggestion about munchkinized characters being battled by twinked out NPC's would work if a player uses somethinng like a shotgun adept with shot rounds and burst fire with the choke set at distance/(power-1) or a gator shaman who specializes in throwing 20 die combat spells at chargen. They are highly optimized characters who are pushing the limits of what the system can handle and are bending the spirit of the rules. They still have had to make choices about what they can do and where they are focused, though.

Getting something for no cost at all, though, is a completely different matter. There is no reason that any character with 3 pieces of cyberware, one of which has more than twice the essence of the other two combined, would choose not to use that exploit except for a sense of playing fair. If a player is going to disrespect the game like that after you've asked them to play within the spirit of the rules, the 2 solution seems like it might be the best one.
Fortune
How is it cheating? If the GM approves the character (and all characters are subject to GM approval), then it's his problem. If the GM doesn't like the (optional in this case) rule, then he doesn't have to include it in his game. He does, though, have an obligation to inform the Player of any and all rule changes.
toturi
QUOTE (ES_Riddle @ Nov 18 2004, 06:59 PM)
However, I don't think that a player is being clever by using a loophole. He is essentially cheating by twisting the intentions of the rules to get gain for no cost. For NPC's there is already pretty much no cost to having more cyber than should be possible (subject to limits, of course). A GM can cram those guys full of betaware or deltaware if he wants, so using this "exploit" in the system gains him nothing compared to the player who is actually getting something out of it. So since the player is going to cheat by exploiting this loophole, the GM is free to cheat by ignoring suspension of disbelief in this case. If you want to justify it in a rules sense, just think of it as a hunted 6 to balance out the free point of essence.

Getting something for no cost at all, though, is a completely different matter. There is no reason that any character with 3 pieces of cyberware, one of which has more than twice the essence of the other two combined, would choose not to use that exploit except for a sense of playing fair. If a player is going to disrespect the game like that after you've asked them to play within the spirit of the rules, the 2 solution seems like it might be the best one.

Here is where I differ from you. If the rules are exploited by the player for some kind of gain, I would not punish the player for that. Why? Everyone wants an edge, you want as big an edge over the competition as possible, as long as you obey all the rules while doing it, I wouldn't get angry. You see it as some kind of "free" points, I see it as smart chargen.

The way I see it, it is like some people having money, good looks and a lot of talent. If God made everyone equal (ie gave each person the same amount of BPs), then some people must have been made with some "free" points! Why are some people born handicapped and in a slum with disfunctional parents? They "squandered" their BPs. I am sorry if this offends some people, but I is how I rationalise it.

I can see it as why the PC has lasted so long in the game, an edge that he has, a sort of clever Essense book-keeping.
Also may I point out that "each option may be taken twice"?
BitBasher
Heh, I just tell the PC "If you take that, NPC's will be doing it too" and it's a self balancing situation, kind of like a cold war arms race. My PC's dont doo thoo outlandish things and I then dont have to use outlandish things against them.
ES_Riddle
QUOTE (toturi)
Here is where I differ from you. If the rules are exploited by the player for some kind of gain, I would not punish the player for that. Why? Everyone wants an edge, you want as big an edge over the competition as possible, as long as you obey all the rules while doing it, I wouldn't get angry. You see it as some kind of "free" points, I see it as smart chargen.

[snip]

Also may I point out that "each option may be taken twice"?

I don't know about the each option only twice. I've got an old M&M and I'm too lazy to look up errata. I was just going off of what Dr Funkenstein said about 6 points of essence reduction on WR3. Even if it is restricted to only it is still abusive to let the increased essence of a low-impact item counter the reduced essence of a high-impact one.

Why not just make the character with more build points and admit that he is higher powered? If that is what your gaming friends want, then you can still lay off the exploit and have a higher powered character. The challenge in character optimization is to do it within the rules without going for things that are obviously exploits. It is just silly for a street sam who got his cybereyes installed by a trainee (essence cost twice) along with his expertly done wired reflexes 2 by the chief surgeon (essence reduction once) to have an extra attribute point for .02 essence more than a sam who has essence reduction on the WR2 and nothing on the cybereyes.

If the sort of game you want to play is one where players are encouraged to find loopholes and exploit them, then you should feel free to allow this. If you want street sams to have another half point of essence at no cost, go for it. It is your game, and I can see that we aren't going to agree.
Fortune
The thing is, it isn't 'at no cost'. I costs the PC Edge Points (which translate to Build Points) ... points that could be used elsewhere in chargen.

Do you consider it 'cheating' or 'abusive' to balance the Focused Concentration Edge with a Mild Mushroon Phobia? Both are 2 Points in their respective categories (in fact, in 2060, mushrooms are probably uncommon, making that Phobia a 3 point Flaw).

A 5% Essence discount (or even 10%) on a single piece of Cyberware is not that dramatic. Especially when compared to some Edges like Focused Concentration.

As I said earlier ... if you as the GM don't like it, then disallow the optional rule altogether, or just put certain limits on it.
Rev
OK time for some examples:

Joe Blow the wanabe decker realizes he needs a datajack.

He hasn't committed any crimes yet, so he heads for a corp owned clinic.

Ettiquette test vs 4, +2 Corp clinic +1, Implant Surgery, -1 Legal Implant, -2 assorted contacts. So after a week he gets say 2 successes on ettiquette 4. That lets him increase the gear rating of the provider by 1 with the extra success.

So Joe has found a standard grade corp cyberware clinic with rating 5 gear.

Now he rolls 2d6 to find his doctors skill. 72%(26/36) of the time he gets 8 or lower. Corp clinic has no modifier to this.

Then he gets a medical profile, which isnt too hard so lets say he just goes with somebody with 4 skill: 80Y.

Joe decides to go for the essence reduction option, and for his negative options chooses sensitive and fragility (his only other option was essence cost).

Now the doctor plans the surgery. The base time is 72 hours times 2 for the positive option the target number is 4 +1 for the positive option. The plan is 288Mp in size (time times 2Mp). It costs 28,800Y (would have been a mere 14,400 had he not tried for the positive option)! With an average skill of 7 and a single 5 needed the doctor usually succedes.

Time for the actual surgery.

The target number is 4 +2 for the positive option, -1 for being at a clinic, -1 when joe realizes he would be an idiot not to pay another 500Y for magical care. Lucky joe has lots of essence, no bioware, and isn't awakened. For now we shall ignore the exploit extra doctors rule, because it is part of my point. The normal surgery costs 40Y times the doctors skill, or on average 280Y. Hilarious isnt it? The plan costs 100x as much as the surgery.

So Joe's doctor has an average of 7 skill. The clinic gear rating of 5 can be used as complementary dice. Joe needs 4 successes against T#4 to get his positive option. Joe has something like a 60% chance of getting his positive option, and 75% of getting out without the negative options.

Final cost: 29660Y.

Now joe has to heal a measly 1 box of damage so he just goes home and sticks an ice pack on his head.

If joe's player were a reasonably alert rule hound he would have noticed that for 560Y he could have reduced the target number to 2 and been virtually certain of the positive option. In fact the only thing limiting him from getting as many positive options as he wants is the surgical plan cost, which is by far the most expensive thing and goes up sharply with options.

So thats absolutely basic installation of the most common peice of cyberware in shadowrun attempting one option.



How about something every street sam dreams of doing?

Ricky Razor wants to have his Wired Reflexes 1 replaced with Move By Wire 3-beta.

He knows a beta facility through the same adventure where he got this magnificently expensive peice of gear.

Beta clinic base gear 6 +2 more the gm throws on. Doctor skill mod +2.

Ricky also doesnt mind the profile, 80Y.

His doctors average skill is again 2d6 or 7 +2 for being at a beta clinic.

Ricky chooses the same options as Joe, just one positive option of reduced essence. He is forced to choose essence slot because he is removing wired 1 and replacing it with mbw. I'll go ahead and add up all those base time multiplers before applying them. 72h for implant surgery times (4 betaware +2 essence slot +2 essence reduction) = 576. 57,600Y this time but its no big deal, the cyberware is worth millions. The doctors target number is 6, but he still has a good chance at success.

Time for surgery.

The target number is 4 +4 for the positive options, -2 for being in a medical facility, +1 cause ricky has some bioware, +1 cause he is either running out of essence, or has more than 2 bioware (lucky for ricky it is not both), +3 for betaware, -1 for magical care (just 500Y!) (again we ignore the extra doctors thing because it is my point). Final T#=10. The surgery costs this time averages 360Y per doctor.

So Ricky's doctor rolls on average nine dice against t# 10, and rolls 8 complementary dice. He actually needs four successes though because without the essence slot option Ricky's essence will go negative and they will have to abort the surgery with Ricky at zero essence and no move by wire or let Ricky die or make him a cyberzombie if they have that option anyhow nothing Ricky wants to happen. So Ricky most likely dies on the table, ends up a cyberzombie, or ends up with zero essence, half installed move by wire, and some negative options.

Total cost ~59kY.

If, however, Ricky noticed the extra doctor rule he pays for extra doctors, and better than joe's player notices they only have to have skill 4 he buys 8 additional doctors at 160Y a peice or 1280Y and reduces the target number to 2 assuring success, and actually making it trivial (being a matter of a few tens of thousands of newyen in the surgical plan) to slap on all 5-6 applicable positive options.


PS
I actually screwed up the second example as well, Ricky also has to have the wired reflexes removed, either as a separate surgery or during this surgery for a further +1 modifier.
Da9iel
Very good, except that positive options don't increase the surgery target number, only the surgery threshold. You only need one success at surgery target number + threshold. You need 3 other successes at surgery target number to get the first positive option. Reread M&M p. 144, second column, second paragraph, last sentence: "the high die." So in your first example, the positive option is almost a gimme. In your second example, (you only get -1 for additional doctor(s) not -1 per doctor) the additional doctor would reduce the target number to 5. It shouldn't be too hard to get 3 fives and a seven, especially if the doctor spends a point from his karma pool. In fact four fives and a nine shouldn't be impossible to get the 5% essence reduction. It's not quite as bad as you try to make it sound.
BitBasher
Actually i'm 99% sure positive options DO increase the surgery target number, but like a few other things in SR this is listed in a really unusual spot you wouldn't normally look for it.
Rev
Ahh good, I didn't see that part on pg144 about the very unique roll made for the surgery test.

Yep way better than I thought. Also you are right, only one extra doctor matters.

Whew. Great how there is a section called "surgical test" but the surgical test is described in the "surgery overview" section.

However while the additional doctor reduces it to 5 removing the wired reflexes increases it back to six unless you do it as two separate surgeries.

So making the list:
To get the first positive option (which is required to succede in this case) you must get four sixes with one nine on around 9 skill dice and 8 complementary. On average you should get 2 and 1/6th successes.

If you do two operations during the implant operation you need four fives and one eight. On average you should get 4 and 2/3 fives. So just under 50% chance of success.

This is a really heavy duty cyberware operation though, so maybe that isn't so bad.

There are only two more thing you can do to improve you odds, use a delta clinic and reroll with karma. If you are allowed to use karma in downtime that will make it work a lot safer. Using a delta clinic would get you another two skill dice, maybe some complementary gear dice, and -2t#. Unfortuantely if you actually wanted deltaware thats another +3t#.

The strange part is that the test is the same if it was a beta datajack, except that the consequences of failing the essence slot option would probably be less severe.

Still dumb that the surgery plan for installing a basic anything is 14,000Y(without options).


PS im not "trying to make it sound" bad. I have no anti-the-rules agenda. I just read them several times and thought they were that bad. I think they still are bad. The magnitude of the cyber or bioware implant should have a large effect on the difficulty and cost of the surgery, while in fact they only have an effect on healing.

The way the stuff about the options affecting the target number is worded it is slightly ambiguous, but if you read the part in the "surgery overview" section and flip back and forth it sounds like Da9iel is correct.
ES_Riddle
QUOTE (Fortune)
The thing is, it isn't 'at no cost'. I costs the PC Edge Points (which translate to Build Points) ... points that could be used elsewhere in chargen.

Oh, I think that buying surgery options is fine and dandy. It is just balancing essence reduction on an intense piece of 'ware (wire reflexes, for example) with 2 increased essence costs on small items (datajack, cybereyes, etc) that I find abusive. Your wired reflexes 2 with 10% essence reduction will cost you .3 essence less. The "balancer" of having increased essence cost 10% on cybereyes and the image link you installed in them is going to be (at worst) .03 points of essence. If you don't have your eyes crammed full of gear, then you may only be looking at .02. Your build points even out, so you basically freed up .27 to .28 points of essence for no cost to yourself in terms of BP. That is what I'd call abusive.
toturi
I don't find it abusive. You forget:
QUOTE
A character may take a maximum of five Edges or Flaws during character creation.


He just used up 1 Edge and 2 Flaws. In fact, to reiterate my point, I would have absolutely no problem with this even if the PC in question had the Edge for MBW 4 and took the Flaws for 2 of his SM-2 subsystems. Because this is his edge over the competition.
SpeedFreak
QUOTE
The magnitude of the cyber or bioware implant should have a large effect on the difficulty and cost of the surgery, while in fact they only have an effect on healing.


If you want to insititute that kind of rule then just apply a modifier (+1 to maybe +3 at most, depending on how difficult you want it to be) per point (or fraction thereof) of Bio Index/ Essence above 1 that the implant takes up.

See, nice, easy, in the spririt and flavor of the rules modification that does what you want simply and easily.

*So sayeth the rules mod guru* nyahnyah.gif
Da9iel
Or to take a nod at canon, consider what the the bio index and essence will be after surgery when applying surgery modifiers.
ES_Riddle
QUOTE (toturi)
I don't find it abusive. You forget:
QUOTE
A character may take a maximum of five Edges or Flaws during character creation.


He just used up 1 Edge and 2 Flaws. In fact, to reiterate my point, I would have absolutely no problem with this even if the PC in question had the Edge for MBW 4 and took the Flaws for 2 of his SM-2 subsystems. Because this is his edge over the competition.

Excellent point. I'd forgotten about that as a limiting factor. Now the sammy who wants lots of essence reduced 'ware is going to have to choose some flaws that cost more than 1 each, so that pretty much solves the problem. :tiphat:
Tanka
A lot of people read that as "five points going either way." In fact, I'm fairly sure that's even how NSRCG takes it.
Ol' Scratch
It's five edges and/or five flaws, max of a +6/-6 BP bonus total. Most people confuse the +6/-6 part with being a max of +6 in edges of -6 in flaws, not the max difference.
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