 Little what ifs |
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 Nov 17 2004, 09:38 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543  |
Let's first start of with the most famous dragons. One Big D had a dream of making the US whole again, and note how the people who are there to carry on his his dreams are in power in the UCAS, and also how the CAS is strongly leaning towards the same goal. What would happen if those two nations rejoin to form a new world power.Note that both those countries are powerful enough to to pressure on at least some of the AAA's. Also note that if said venture were to happen what AAA would favor it? Why the one with Big D's cheese mate.
Now on to the golden wyrm... I have looking over those who hate him,and it is a long list. But I found a few things. Like the NEEC, you may think that this gives SK a lot of power, but look at what it also does, the countries and AA's who have been playing in SK's shadow have a way to put checks on the AAA, the corporate Court is unlikely to make any new waves in Europe. But the NEEC Supreme court has let the AA's and countries level the playing feild. On other news with the Golden one, the idea that Spinrad,and Trany's merging is not all that alien to me. Both parties would gain a great amount of power in this merger,and from what I understand they share many of the same goals. Something that could happen would be a forming of another European AAA. Ares,and Novatech merging. Nova-tech being the smallest AAA,and seemingly at the most risk of being hit hard by the bigger boys is a bad place. Ares may realize that being an AAA means you have to not only use the SOTA,you must make it. Nova is lacking phsyical resources,and Ares is lacking mental resources. Back to Europe, what if some of the AA's merge into one. What would that look like..After all I think one or two of them are bigger than Nova Tech...Nova tech was just lucky. |
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Nov 18 2004, 12:59 AM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I know you should not question the motivations of Dragons but I'm pretty sure uniting the US was not on his short list of things to do. Nor do I believe the CAS really wants that either. They may be suffering economically but they dont want it. I don't know what you're talking about in the rest of the post. |
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Nov 18 2004, 01:33 AM
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#3
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
There is a canon movement to the reuniting of the UCAS, CAS, CFS, and the rest of North America into some kind of Superpower. Of course, this is a longterm plan, and dangerous. Certainly, some people in Ares would want to aid this, as would some in other corporations. However, this won't happen over night and not without resistance. The megacorp leaders will do everything they can to subvert (not prevent) the foundation of such a new nation to their own ends. They've shown they can work together before... maybe the Corporate Court itself has engineered the New Revolution and the NEEC as part of a global strategy. Or maybe it is just Knight's answer to Lofwyr's stranglehold.
I agree, but somehow doubt Knight and Villiers could stand each other. A more interesting merger is with the PCC, though that too is unlikely simply because Villiers wouldn't want to lose any control. So until Richard steps down (thus stripping Novatech of its AAA status), Novatech will likely fight to remain a single mega. How long they can maintain this give Art Danthwalker and the sharks, I don't know. Of the merger candidates, CATco and MCT look in the best position to take large chunks of it. Renraku is short on capital according to SotA, and Shiawase is too cautious, too divided. If Cross and Aurelius could find it in their hearts to give Villiers an equal split, he might take them up on the offer, but even so, Novatech is poisoned goods at the moment.
I have to agree there. How about Erika, Frankfurter Bankverein, and Proteus? Space, communications, and money. A few smaller chemical corps and actual manufacturing sites would be needed, but their combined strength would make them a megacorp. |
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Nov 18 2004, 01:46 AM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
As far as I can tell, we have three nations that would join a new US. Firstly, the UCAS, trying to return to supremacy and shed its malaise. I'm not sure how interested the Canadians would be, although they don't seem to be saying much. Nor are there that many, if you look at how little of Canada joined up.
Add the CAS, with similar goals. They lost most of their international power when the UCAS kept much of the long-range military punch. They still lack the UCAS's heavy industry, which could really complement their Matrix techs. This would also bring troops against the Azzies. PCC because of their loss of connection with their NAN brothers. The siezure of LA and issues with the Utes could really push them in the Reunification direction. The Utes racism would keep them out, along with their politicians wanting to keep power. The Souix- I don't think I need to explain this. They train to fight the UCAS and prevent Reunification. Tsimshan is too influenced by Mitsuhama. The Manitou might, actually, for support in their split with the Algonquins. The common border with the UCAS would help. GW would probably keep Denver out, since anything else would crimp his fief, as well as eliminate many smuggling routes. In fact, he might even covertly fight against it. The Salish-Sidhe would probably remain out, due to their more Nativist stance. CFS- bits might join, although our Neo-Hitler would devote major effort to preventing it. |
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Nov 18 2004, 02:35 PM
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#5
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Hmm... Questions about rejoining the UCAS and CAS, and our proximity to the elections brought up an interesting question...
When republicans continue to win the elections and turn power over to the megas, and with most of Canada now part of the UCAS, where do the liberals go when they're sick of conservatives? NAN and the Tir won't have them, California is too crazy, Quebec is French (snotty and all). We don't have a good neighbor they can easily jump ship to. |
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Nov 18 2004, 02:56 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024 |
Those are the non-corp workers, doing the jobs that the corps pass on.
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Nov 18 2004, 03:20 PM
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#7
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I doubt they’d be able to pull the coup to get AAA status. Remember, AAA means a corporate court seat, and precious few megas have two of those right now, and none would be at all receptive to losing one. ~J |
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Nov 18 2004, 10:12 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
If you look at how CAS is in shadowrun,compared to most countries, it is liberal. It is about as far left as you get in the dark future on really a lot of issues. Yes it still has problems,and it leaning towards the right on a few issues, but none of issues I would call deal breaking. Now as for the UCAS, it doesn't seem to be too far on the left either.And is rather crazy as well. On to Nova Tech,as I recall he Villiers owns a corparation that had the legal rights to one the votes. He could sell that holding,and give someone a vote. theoretically he could sell that part of Nova tech to a no name,and they could have a vote on the CC. |
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Nov 18 2004, 10:15 PM
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#9
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
He could. I'm about as certain as one can be of these things that he isn't going to.
~J |
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Nov 18 2004, 10:57 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Well, largely I can see the UCAS join the CAS within a year. After all no one really saw the NEEC coming along so fast. The other parts of the US, well that is hard to say CFS, may ask for add to get the Neo-Hisler ousted,and to rejoin the Union, but other than that I do not see any of this in the short term.At least as anything but a storm in the shadows of NA,if not the world.
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Nov 18 2004, 11:16 PM
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#11
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
The UCAS, CAS, and PCC would likely join forces to oust Saito before joining as a nation. They could form a North American Strategic Alliance and "liberate" the CFS from the Protectorate. Afterwards, the CFS become a provisional state under the care of NASA while the PCC retains control of the Free City of Los Angeles. Greater ties between the three nations leads to a type of NEEC and over time other nations join for reason from security to economic.
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Nov 18 2004, 11:41 PM
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#12
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Villiers owns JRJ International and whoever owns the founding members of the Corp Court will have a seat on it. That's a bed-rock clause, if the other AAAs overturn it, they'll be sowing the seeds of their own destruction. As it stands as long as Villiers doesn't sell his nearly 3/4 shares, he's never going to lose that seat, since Novatech is a private company. Maybe Art owns Trans-Lat, but I doubt it. |
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Nov 19 2004, 10:17 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Well, I see your point,and that is why I have put this post..Well, I would like to be right as well, but it will help me with the plot of any game I run. It may even help the righters to see a new goal in the world. Saito is about the largest reason I do not play strickly canon or play east of the rockies. But I do not see the PCC joining in said venture,without the support of at least a few of the other NAN's if not the whole NAN.Witch then could be used to help the SSC. I do see a mega or two joining, NOVA,or Ares being the highest on the list of the AAA's. But I could also see some of the CFS corps or some (U)CAS ones. |
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Nov 19 2004, 11:14 PM
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#14
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Strictly speaking, no mega can join as a partner in the NASA, since they are forbidden from overthrowing governments. While the can support, which obviously Ares would - though I don't think Novatech can afford to at the moment, they cannot be considered a part of it. They could, however, be hired as mercenary forces, but this only offsets Saito's corporate backers and their forces.
Consider that the CAS and PCC have a stronger alliance and economic ties than the PCC does with the rest of the NAN, and that they have the most peaceful boarder between them. The PCC has overextended its security forces with the annexation of LA, and the Mojave is eating trops like quicksand. Their biggest fear now is of a dual attack by Saito and Aztlan, who are natural allies in this situation. Their signature on the NASA accord would be as suppliers of technology, intelligence, and equipment (which they have plenty of), but not troops. Connections between Ares and the PCC might also help push this decision. And I love Saito. He's one of my favorite developments, though I liked everything in Threats 2, to happen and I will be very angry if NASA removes him in under 5 years. I fully expect that Japan will enter negotiations as Saito forces are pushed back to San Fran and they will retain control of the original enclave once Saito is found dead. |
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Nov 20 2004, 09:25 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
have you ever been to california? Really, have you seen the size of the cities that Saito "controls"? Right now you are talking of three largest cities in the US. San Jose has more people than some states. Now I could explain how he is horridly undermanned. As i recall the books state he has upwards of 40,000 troops. From my best guess on numbers he is controlling an area with at least 12,000,000(more likely 14,000,000) people. Note that close to 80% of all californians who do not live in LA or San diego live in Saito's protectorate. one troop for every 30,000 people... Um and who really likes him? Who really hates him?
But Back to what you call NASA, I'll call NATO. You guess why. And look at the NEEC, 16 Corps are part of it,as it is..It is likely more will join.I just see as it is likely have a National and corporate membership. |
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Nov 21 2004, 02:40 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 381 |
I don't think Spinrad would be any more happy with Celedyr than with Lowfyr. He has probably learnt not to deal with dragons. Though he might be tempted to as his motivation is revenge. Regarding Novatech. WMI is the next big thing in the 6th world, spearheaded by Erika. Erika is probably one the same size as Novatech and has much of the same mentality. Novatech is the prime leader in the old Matrix, Erika in the new wireless one. A merger would strengthen Novatech as an AAA corp, and Erika would benefit from beeing AAA. More likely than an Ares-Novatech merger as Villiers then would have to give in. Merging with Erika would be a win-win situation for both, merging with Ares would be bad for Novatech. Other European AAs to merge? Proteus is a high-profile corp with little actual income, so they are in fact prime for hostile takeover. Maersk is one of the oldest, largest and most stable corps of Europe. They are strong, but not necessarilly on the SOTA edge. Acquring Proteus would give them an edge. That may be the result of the cold war between them right now. A Maersk-merger with ESUS would probably create a strong opponent to Wuxing dominating all transport-business in Europe. A takeover of Renault-Fiat would strengthen that position even more and would seriously challenge any AAA or dragon. |
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Nov 21 2004, 03:06 AM
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#17
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
You suggest he as 40,000 troops with 12,000,000 (VITAS hit cities hard)? Numbers don't change much, and law and order is already established.
Is the NEEC a military alliance? By law, no corporation can partake directly in the overthrowing of governments, and Saito is recognized by at least three Coporate Court members... So no, I don't think any corps will join NASA, and it's better if they don't. That will allow it to grow independant of the bottom line and corporate interests. |
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Nov 21 2004, 10:40 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Good points but, the book states that CFS has 18,000,000 people. The land mass he owns would have 80% of those people. Notice how the world of shadowrun has many signs of higher populations denastities,rather than lower.
Saito is not backed by a body of people who are willing to throw hundreds of billions of dollars at a problem. The "US" army in iraq is. Satio doesn't have the worlds best air force, just a noticable one. Notice that the the rebel forces aren't any less funded in either of the conflicts. At least notablely so. Look at Orktown,yea no rebels there... So I say that the war in Iraq is not a good basis to judge Saito,mainly because he is underfunded compared to the war in Iraq,and let's not forget that the people of Iraq really did want a new govenerment. And about NEEC, it has no less than six fulled armed divisions,and two navies. |
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Nov 21 2004, 10:47 PM
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#19
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
And the poeple of California pretty much kept the one they had. Nothing has changed for them really. We can argue all we like, but it doesn't make Saito any less fun to use, even if you don't think he could hold the area.
<shakes head> Well, at least they're blurring the lines between corp and nations more. |
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Nov 24 2004, 10:51 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Well, would he be any less fun if he had taken over Seattle? My problem is that nothing good,and I have looked ever happens in california. The best thing you can say is that a dragon is keeping elves at bay up north. Oh wait, Saito isn't getting the resources he wants,and is having to with "subtle" backing. As far as I can tell Shadowrun was righten by people who never been to California and hate it. |
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Nov 24 2004, 11:02 PM
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#21
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Nothing good should happen to California. Dude, it's almost like Tokyo in that respect.
~J |
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Nov 24 2004, 11:03 PM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
But in SR good things happen to tokyo..
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Nov 24 2004, 11:40 PM
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#23
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I live in Chicago, dude. Do you think I care where Saito set up shop? No. It was California because that's the only canon place where the Imperial Japanese Marines had a gigantic foothold in NA. The fact that California is the IDEAL place to run IDEALISTIC runners (and always has been since NAG2RL) makes it a perfect reflection for the duality of the Free State.
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Dec 1 2004, 10:48 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Yes, the Ideal place to have runs about the Idealistic runs. Never mind the boarders with the Tir,or Aztlan.Oh no, the idealistic runners would never have clashes in San Diego. Or maybe in LA LA land,no that place wasn't prefect for idealistic runners. The Haves and the have nots.The shallow dreams,and emtpy promises.The sense of hope,and luck,with the cynical truth.The walls all around.
But San fransico in the whole shadowrun time line is rather short sighted. San Diego has for the past 40 od years about the same amount of Japanese as San Fransico. Los Angeles has many more. But really, is any of the reasons for Saito bringing idealistic runners,or runs any diffrent than runs you could do on Tir, or Aztlan? Or hell, what about the Ute? The Ute are racist too! |
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Dec 1 2004, 11:51 PM
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#25
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Tir has too much security, making more of a spy game. The Ute doesn't really have a duality; just poor, corrupt people and instituions making one of the worst places for runners to make an effective change. Saito is a place for runners to actually make an impact in the world - for better or worse.
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