 New House Rule Idea, Comment and/or Suggestions Wanted |
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 Nov 29 2004, 06:20 PM
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#1
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The Wandering One  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 121 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Camp Hill, PA, USA Member No.: 135  |
I've been kicking around an idea for reducing obscenely high TN#'s (like those for hacking credsticks in SSG). One option is, as the GM, lower the number itself, but I want to do something that reflects "experience" that characters gather throughout their careers. One option I'm considering is a "temporary burning" of appropriate pool dice for lowering the numbers. It works by removing two dice for every -1 to the TN. These dice would then refresh as normal and be usable for the next one. What does everybody think of this: crazy? good? too few dice? too many?
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Nov 29 2004, 06:22 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Crazy and no, money should be hard to forge, that's its point.
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Nov 29 2004, 06:23 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Is there a limit on how low the pool dice can lower the TN? Without a minimum, I might be inclined to burn dice on getting low TNs all the time.
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Nov 29 2004, 06:25 PM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 19-November 04 Member No.: 6,842 |
It's called "karma pool". Repeat with me "kaaaaarma.... pooooool...."
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Nov 29 2004, 06:27 PM
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#5
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
I am undecided about the concept, but make it use up actuial skill dice, and similarly reduce the amout of pool dice that can be applied.
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Nov 29 2004, 06:28 PM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
There were some earlier discussions about being able to trade karma pool in for permanently lowered difficulties in the previous 'too much karma pool thread' that you might want to look at.
Allowing combat pool to lower TNs is not advisable. (Imagine 12 dice throwing, smartlinked, pistol adept, with a combot pool of 12) |
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Nov 29 2004, 06:34 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
The problem with your house rule that I see isnt so much one of balance (though that might be an issue), but, rather, that it does *nothing* for those skills that lack dice pools.
A house rule I am experimenting with, which is extrapolated from the "taking aim" action, is to provide a -1 TN mod for doubling the base time for an action. This can be applied multiple times. So, for example, normally, rewiring a maglock keypad has a target number equal to the maglock rating, and takes a base time of 60 seconds to accomplish. This base time remains the same regardless of the rating. If, however, you had some spare time, by spending 120 seconds you could get a -1 TN mod. Spending 240 seconds (looking over the wiring cautiously and doublechecking yourself) would provide a -2 TN mod. And so on. The total TN reduction can not exceed 1/2 the appropriate skill rating (round down), or 1/4 the skill rating (round down) if you are defaulting. |
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Nov 29 2004, 06:35 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
You could try a system where spending extra time lowers the Target Number. I would say if they are willing to spend four times the allotted time the TN is half, but never below 10. This makes it a little more realistic as when you are not rushed you can notice your mistakes and take time to plan.
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Nov 29 2004, 06:37 PM
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#9
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
My two suggestions:
First, I personally don't like the idea, especially when the only other even vaguely similar thing in SR suffers much more (can only be done at base TNs above 12, can only reduce to 8, and permanently burns karma pool). Second, a more descriptive thread title would be nice. Something mentioning what exactly the house rule pertains to, or something of that nature. Just to keep in mind in the future. ~J |
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Nov 29 2004, 11:11 PM
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#10
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I don't mind the 'doubling the time taken' idea.
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Nov 29 2004, 11:17 PM
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#11
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'd require each further reduction double the current time taken. if the base time is 30 minutes, you could spend an hour and get -1 TN, 2 hours for -2, 4 hours for -3, and so on.
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Nov 29 2004, 11:21 PM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I don't think that incredibly high TNs should be reduced. Incredibly high rolls sometimes happen, and high TNs should be hard.
You can get miracles just fine with vanilla shadowrun, so I don't think the house rule is necessary. |
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Nov 30 2004, 12:13 AM
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#13
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That's the way Jason described it. :) |
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Nov 30 2004, 12:15 AM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
pah! i have no time to read your filthy words, i am important.
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Nov 30 2004, 01:08 AM
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#15
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm pretty sure there was an edit in there, as I distinctly remember the first reading to be take double the time to halve the TN, which would be broken.
~J |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Nov 30 2004, 01:08 AM
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#16
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Guests |
That's the Hooper-Nelson Rule (Optional) from SR3, p. 248. Only the H-N Rule require you to permanently burn the dice from your KP at the rate of -1TN/die, and it is recommended that the TN not be reduced to less than 8. And, yes, Kagetenshi mentioned it already. I just provided a name and citation. [edit] Regardless, I still think it's a pretty foolish idea vs. the alternative of spending more time and then blowing KP dice re-rolling that TN. [/edit] |
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Nov 30 2004, 01:20 AM
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#17
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Possibly, but as of the time I first read the post it (and hence responded to it), it was as it stands now. As mfb posted after me (in response to my post), that would mean that the post in question (edited or not) read as it does now. :) |
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Nov 30 2004, 05:18 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
I'd like to know more about why you have been wanting to do this. Is it because you simply don't like spending the time re-rolling endlessly to reach them, or do you just want to make things easier, or what...? I'd like to know more.
Experience is a knowledge or skill so derived. Experience is what gives you skill IRL. In SR Experience is your Good Karma. With it you raise your skills, and thus your experience of things has made you more skilled. Simply lowering the TN from the GM's side of the table does not logically line up as means to reflect Skill learned in Experience.
This is backwards. The Pool is part of a representation of your overall experience in your skills. To remove or burn points from them is to suggest that you suddenly got dumber and as a result the TN became lower. The Karma Pool burning from the H-N rule works out logically because the Karma Pool is not a representation of the skill of the character but rather a representation of the general favor of their fate and/or luck.
You end up with TN's of 20 being a TN of 14 if they have a Skill Pool of 12. At this point, the TN14 will be attempted with their (suposed) 6 Skill dice. In this case, it's: 18 dice to get TN 20 vs. 6 dice to get TN 14 That's 3 times less the amount of dice and not even half the level of the original TN. To reach a 20 I need 1 die to roll a 6 three times and a 2 once. To reach a 14 I need 1 die to roll a 6 two times and a 2 once. For the 20 I will have 18 dice to roll trying to get three 6's and a 2. For the 14 I will have 6 dice to roll trying to get two 6's and a 2. I lose a 2/3rds of my dice and the TN is lowered by roughly a 3rd. I'm just not sure that I would actually ever feel motivated to use this rule if the GM was allowing it. |
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Nov 30 2004, 05:27 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
In response to the original post, personally, I wouldn't allow that house rule. As others have stated, money should be hard to hack/forge. If it weren't, every decker or rigger should start out as a forger. The hell with Street Index, just make as much money as needed.
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Nov 30 2004, 05:29 AM
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#20
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
18 dice, TN 20: 0.069444 expected successes.
6 dice, TN 14: 0.13888 expected successes. Your chances just doubled. ~J |
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Nov 30 2004, 06:13 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
Kage, you are correct.
I really screwed that post because I was comparing his rule to the H-N rule in my mind. In the H-N rule, if I had 12 KP, and 12 SP, I would have a TN20 beat down to a TN8 and have 18 dice to roll against it. personally though. I don't like either rule. Neat idea, but I don't see where the TN system is broke really if the reasoning is based in experience. [edit]wait...a small voice in my head is telling me it remembers the H-N rule saying that you can't use other pools to aid in the roll if you use the H-N KP burning....hm....damn not having books around.[/edit] |
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Nov 30 2004, 06:24 AM
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#22
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That's inaccurate. I don't mind Hooper-Nelson because you are permanently burning part of the debt the universe owes your character on doing something really cool. It isn't something you can really factor into your planning, because it will only be a good idea in exceptional circumstances.
~J |
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Nov 30 2004, 06:36 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
exactly.
I wasn't even hitting on the one or multiple uses yet. That issue alone makes the rule more dangerous. It re-generates every combat round. |
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Nov 30 2004, 06:54 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
I guess the way I see it.
If your direct problem is high TN's and their relation to characters you think should be represented as more experienced and skilled characters at the task and thus able to accomplish higher TN's, then I would step back and look at other ideas that are simpler. For one. Try modifying the maximum Skill level allowed. For a human, perhaps the highest level allowed could be 10. If memory serves me right (been a while since I've bothered to worry about a skill over 6) there is a rule to go over racial maximums by a cost of double or something to the maximum level of half again the racial maximum. But I could be mistaken on that...again...don't have my books right now. |
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Nov 30 2004, 09:02 AM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Nope. There was exactly one edit to my original post, changing the word "passkey" to "keypad." The half thing was probably something you got from the post directly after mine. Note: I do not apply that houserule to spellcasting, but I think pretty much everything else that could possibly make sense works out ok. |
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