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> New House Rule Idea, Comment and/or Suggestions Wanted
Nomad
post Nov 29 2004, 06:20 PM
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I've been kicking around an idea for reducing obscenely high TN#'s (like those for hacking credsticks in SSG). One option is, as the GM, lower the number itself, but I want to do something that reflects "experience" that characters gather throughout their careers. One option I'm considering is a "temporary burning" of appropriate pool dice for lowering the numbers. It works by removing two dice for every -1 to the TN. These dice would then refresh as normal and be usable for the next one. What does everybody think of this: crazy? good? too few dice? too many?
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Botch
post Nov 29 2004, 06:22 PM
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Crazy and no, money should be hard to forge, that's its point.
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Cray74
post Nov 29 2004, 06:23 PM
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Is there a limit on how low the pool dice can lower the TN? Without a minimum, I might be inclined to burn dice on getting low TNs all the time.
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Toxic_Waste
post Nov 29 2004, 06:25 PM
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It's called "karma pool". Repeat with me "kaaaaarma.... pooooool...."
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Herald of Verjig...
post Nov 29 2004, 06:27 PM
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I am undecided about the concept, but make it use up actuial skill dice, and similarly reduce the amout of pool dice that can be applied.
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Crusher Bob
post Nov 29 2004, 06:28 PM
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There were some earlier discussions about being able to trade karma pool in for permanently lowered difficulties in the previous 'too much karma pool thread' that you might want to look at.

Allowing combat pool to lower TNs is not advisable. (Imagine 12 dice throwing, smartlinked, pistol adept, with a combot pool of 12)
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Jason Farlander
post Nov 29 2004, 06:34 PM
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The problem with your house rule that I see isnt so much one of balance (though that might be an issue), but, rather, that it does *nothing* for those skills that lack dice pools.

A house rule I am experimenting with, which is extrapolated from the "taking aim" action, is to provide a -1 TN mod for doubling the base time for an action. This can be applied multiple times. So, for example, normally, rewiring a maglock keypad has a target number equal to the maglock rating, and takes a base time of 60 seconds to accomplish. This base time remains the same regardless of the rating. If, however, you had some spare time, by spending 120 seconds you could get a -1 TN mod. Spending 240 seconds (looking over the wiring cautiously and doublechecking yourself) would provide a -2 TN mod. And so on. The total TN reduction can not exceed 1/2 the appropriate skill rating (round down), or 1/4 the skill rating (round down) if you are defaulting.
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lorthazar
post Nov 29 2004, 06:35 PM
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You could try a system where spending extra time lowers the Target Number. I would say if they are willing to spend four times the allotted time the TN is half, but never below 10. This makes it a little more realistic as when you are not rushed you can notice your mistakes and take time to plan.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 29 2004, 06:37 PM
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My two suggestions:

First, I personally don't like the idea, especially when the only other even vaguely similar thing in SR suffers much more (can only be done at base TNs above 12, can only reduce to 8, and permanently burns karma pool).

Second, a more descriptive thread title would be nice. Something mentioning what exactly the house rule pertains to, or something of that nature. Just to keep in mind in the future.

~J
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Fortune
post Nov 29 2004, 11:11 PM
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I don't mind the 'doubling the time taken' idea.
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mfb
post Nov 29 2004, 11:17 PM
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i'd require each further reduction double the current time taken. if the base time is 30 minutes, you could spend an hour and get -1 TN, 2 hours for -2, 4 hours for -3, and so on.
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Wounded Ronin
post Nov 29 2004, 11:21 PM
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I don't think that incredibly high TNs should be reduced. Incredibly high rolls sometimes happen, and high TNs should be hard.

You can get miracles just fine with vanilla shadowrun, so I don't think the house rule is necessary.
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Fortune
post Nov 30 2004, 12:13 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
i'd require each further reduction double the current time taken. if the base time is 30 minutes, you could spend an hour and get -1 TN, 2 hours for -2, 4 hours for -3, and so on.

That's the way Jason described it. :)
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mfb
post Nov 30 2004, 12:15 AM
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pah! i have no time to read your filthy words, i am important.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 30 2004, 01:08 AM
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I'm pretty sure there was an edit in there, as I distinctly remember the first reading to be take double the time to halve the TN, which would be broken.

~J
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Nov 30 2004, 01:08 AM
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QUOTE (Nomad @ Nov 29 2004, 12:20 PM)
I've been kicking around an idea for reducing obscenely high TN#'s (like those for hacking credsticks in SSG).  One option is, as the GM, lower the number itself, but I want to do something that reflects "experience" that characters gather throughout their careers.  One option I'm considering is a "temporary burning" of appropriate pool dice for lowering the numbers.  It works by removing two dice for every -1 to the TN.  These dice would then refresh as normal and be usable for the next one.  What does everybody think of this: crazy? good? too few dice? too many?

That's the Hooper-Nelson Rule (Optional) from SR3, p. 248. Only the H-N Rule require you to permanently burn the dice from your KP at the rate of -1TN/die, and it is recommended that the TN not be reduced to less than 8.

And, yes, Kagetenshi mentioned it already. I just provided a name and citation.

[edit]
Regardless, I still think it's a pretty foolish idea vs. the alternative of spending more time and then blowing KP dice re-rolling that TN.
[/edit]
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Fortune
post Nov 30 2004, 01:20 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I'm pretty sure there was an edit in there, as I distinctly remember the first reading to be take double the time to halve the TN, which would be broken.

Possibly, but as of the time I first read the post it (and hence responded to it), it was as it stands now. As mfb posted after me (in response to my post), that would mean that the post in question (edited or not) read as it does now. :)
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Stumps
post Nov 30 2004, 05:18 AM
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QUOTE
I've been kicking around an idea for reducing obscenely high TN#'s

I'd like to know more about why you have been wanting to do this.
Is it because you simply don't like spending the time re-rolling endlessly to reach them, or do you just want to make things easier, or what...?
I'd like to know more.

QUOTE
One option is, as the GM, lower the number itself, but I want to do something that reflects "experience" that characters gather throughout their careers.

Experience is a knowledge or skill so derived. Experience is what gives you skill IRL. In SR Experience is your Good Karma. With it you raise your skills, and thus your experience of things has made you more skilled.
Simply lowering the TN from the GM's side of the table does not logically line up as means to reflect Skill learned in Experience.

QUOTE
One option I'm considering is a "temporary burning" of appropriate pool dice for lowering the numbers.

This is backwards.
The Pool is part of a representation of your overall experience in your skills.
To remove or burn points from them is to suggest that you suddenly got dumber and as a result the TN became lower.

The Karma Pool burning from the H-N rule works out logically because the Karma Pool is not a representation of the skill of the character but rather a representation of the general favor of their fate and/or luck.

QUOTE
It works by removing two dice for every -1 to the TN.

You end up with TN's of 20 being a TN of 14 if they have a Skill Pool of 12.
At this point, the TN14 will be attempted with their (suposed) 6 Skill dice.
In this case, it's:
18 dice to get TN 20
vs.
6 dice to get TN 14

That's 3 times less the amount of dice and not even half the level of the original TN.

To reach a 20 I need 1 die to roll a 6 three times and a 2 once.
To reach a 14 I need 1 die to roll a 6 two times and a 2 once.

For the 20 I will have 18 dice to roll trying to get three 6's and a 2.
For the 14 I will have 6 dice to roll trying to get two 6's and a 2.

I lose a 2/3rds of my dice and the TN is lowered by roughly a 3rd.

I'm just not sure that I would actually ever feel motivated to use this rule if the GM was allowing it.
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Crimson Jack
post Nov 30 2004, 05:27 AM
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In response to the original post, personally, I wouldn't allow that house rule. As others have stated, money should be hard to hack/forge. If it weren't, every decker or rigger should start out as a forger. The hell with Street Index, just make as much money as needed.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 30 2004, 05:29 AM
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18 dice, TN 20: 0.069444 expected successes.

6 dice, TN 14: 0.13888 expected successes.

Your chances just doubled.

~J
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Stumps
post Nov 30 2004, 06:13 AM
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Kage, you are correct.

I really screwed that post because I was comparing his rule to the H-N rule in my mind.

In the H-N rule, if I had 12 KP, and 12 SP, I would have a TN20 beat down to a TN8 and have 18 dice to roll against it.

personally though.
I don't like either rule.

Neat idea, but I don't see where the TN system is broke really if the reasoning is based in experience.

[edit]wait...a small voice in my head is telling me it remembers the H-N rule saying that you can't use other pools to aid in the roll if you use the H-N KP burning....hm....damn not having books around.[/edit]
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 30 2004, 06:24 AM
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That's inaccurate. I don't mind Hooper-Nelson because you are permanently burning part of the debt the universe owes your character on doing something really cool. It isn't something you can really factor into your planning, because it will only be a good idea in exceptional circumstances.

~J
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Stumps
post Nov 30 2004, 06:36 AM
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exactly.

I wasn't even hitting on the one or multiple uses yet.

That issue alone makes the rule more dangerous.
It re-generates every combat round.
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Stumps
post Nov 30 2004, 06:54 AM
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I guess the way I see it.
If your direct problem is high TN's and their relation to characters you think should be represented as more experienced and skilled characters at the task and thus able to accomplish higher TN's, then I would step back and look at other ideas that are simpler.

For one. Try modifying the maximum Skill level allowed.
For a human, perhaps the highest level allowed could be 10.

If memory serves me right (been a while since I've bothered to worry about a skill over 6) there is a rule to go over racial maximums by a cost of double or something to the maximum level of half again the racial maximum.
But I could be mistaken on that...again...don't have my books right now.
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Jason Farlander
post Nov 30 2004, 09:02 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I'm pretty sure there was an edit in there, as I distinctly remember the first reading to be take double the time to halve the TN, which would be broken.

~J

Nope. There was exactly one edit to my original post, changing the word "passkey" to "keypad." The half thing was probably something you got from the post directly after mine.

Note: I do not apply that houserule to spellcasting, but I think pretty much everything else that could possibly make sense works out ok.
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