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> Vehicle Design, R3 vehicle design
GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 29 2004, 08:44 PM
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So I've been researching vehicle design using the Rigger 3 rules and have a few questions and observations maybe you all can help me with.

When designing a vehicle, you use the Design Points (DP) to calc the Design Cost, but use actualy $$ for Customizations, that much is clear. Also, some items cost less CF or $$ when done at design time vs. customization. What I have noticed is adding a "security" item like Vehicle armor, Turrents or fixed weapons would undoubtedly up the Street Index (SI) to 2+ making it more expensive to buy a more or less "stock" security vehicle.

I know my players will want to make some vehicles (since the R3 offers limited designs and lacks some basic types) and I am anticipating them buying "stock" vehicles and then customizing them to avoid high initial SI of security-class vehicles. The trade off is now they must content with not only SI/Availability, Time and Equipment needed. Is there something else I am missing in the DP vs. Custom approach?

What about custom vehicles at chargen? I am considering using the Availability 8 rules for customizations as long as they have the $$ to do what they want (with GM approval of coarse) since chargen time if rather interperative.

Any other thoughts or experiences with R3 vehicle design?

Thanks.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 29 2004, 08:53 PM
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You aren't missing anything, but keep in mind that a vehicle with 11 points of Armor and no turrets would be quite odd. Make them explain exactly what market segment the vehicle caters to, and if they come up with a good idea, spread it around in the game.

Customization at chargen can make quite a powerful vehicle, but as long as you keep some oversight on the process, everything should be just dandy.

~J
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Lindt
post Nov 29 2004, 09:00 PM
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Depends. When you play with the cust. its an options package. But not all the toys are options. *confused at that too* Hmm.

Ok. You make a basic car from the base designs. Now, you can either offer this car as a stripper (a sign of a cheep, shitty car), or have standered options (AC, ABS, floor mats) that drive up the price. Then you have options (leather, bigger engine, Nerps+) that cost even more above the base options.

And if that dosent make sense, ponder what the base model of the modified car would have, use that with the DP system, and then charge ее for the rest.
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Cray74
post Nov 29 2004, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
You aren't missing anything, but keep in mind that a vehicle with 11 points of Armor and no turrets would be quite odd.

:P I have a character with a car almost exactly like that. Police have trouble complaining when they search the car and find concealed armor ("I refused the Mob's offer of 'insurance' for my business. Want to see my armor permit?"), but explaining a pop-up turreted HMG in the back seat of the limo is more difficult.
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Lindt
post Nov 29 2004, 09:03 PM
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Erh..... active conflict avoidance?
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 29 2004, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
You aren't missing anything, but keep in mind that a vehicle with 11 points of Armor and no turrets would be quite odd.

Not if it's purely for defense, like a presidential limo or the Popemobile. Anything short of a riot-control or military vehicle with a turret would be the odd vehicle in my opinion.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 29 2004, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
You aren't missing anything, but keep in mind that a vehicle with 11 points of Armor and no turrets would be quite odd.

Can you recall if there is any provision for how obvious vehicle armor is? I know in some cases it's almost impossible to tell if some vehicles are armored (limos and such). If something doesn't already exist, what about up to the vehicle's body in vehicle armor points without it being directly obvious? The personal armor maybe Bodyx2?

QUOTE
Make them explain exactly what market segment the vehicle caters to, and if they come up with a good idea, spread it around in the game

Right. That's part of why I want to get my players involved since they have some great ideas too! I'd love for them to face one of their own creations and sweat bullets knowing what it can do.

Thanks for the feedback.
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Cray74
post Nov 29 2004, 09:10 PM
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QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
Can you recall if there is any provision for how obvious vehicle armor is?  I know in some cases it's almost impossible to tell if some vehicles are armored (limos and such).  If something doesn't already exist, what about up to the vehicle's body in vehicle armor points without it being directly obvious?  The personal armor maybe Bodyx2?

Well, I recall there's there's "concealed" vehicle armor and just plain armor, plus personal armor. Standard armor is obvious without a roll (e.g., a Brinks armored bank truck). I don't recall the concealability rating of concealed and personal vehicle armor, but that's probably somewhere in R3.
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Tarantula
post Nov 29 2004, 09:12 PM
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I'm fairly certain that concealed vehicle armor is a concealibility of 8. From the inside of the vehicle.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 29 2004, 09:29 PM
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The TN is 9-(Armor Rating/3, rounded down). It's pretty easy to tell, all in all; aforementioned Armor 11 would be at TN 6, which a few passers-by would easily get at least one of. It is also probably rather trivial to tell from inside, unless you're sufficiently distracted as to fail to realize that there is rather a lot less room inside the vehicle than it looks like there should be.

~J
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Lindt
post Nov 29 2004, 10:23 PM
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Actually if I was needing to be in a car with 11 points of armor, Id WANT to know it was built like a tank. Once you get to 12, well the car drives like a mule, and its not gonna be all that hard to see what your packing...
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lorthazar
post Nov 29 2004, 10:26 PM
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Of course if you know the right people just paint it a bright color and cast Armor 12 and quicken it, but then you run into that whole automatic fire still tearing you up problem. Or am ove analyzing this.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 29 2004, 10:34 PM
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Note that armored vehicles are perfectly legal, and that it's impossible to tell how armored a vehicle is just by looking at it (you only know that it's armored or not). There's plenty of standard, everyday family vehicles that have standard (non-concealed) armor such as the Volkswagon Superkombi.

The Concealability aspect is mostly an aesthetic issue and, even just a cursory attempt to conceal it is better than being obvious about it if you want to have a remote shot of driving through a nice part of town without being pulled over and questioned.

Standard armor may be legal, but that doesn't mean you won't be hasseled about it if it looks suspicious.
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Lindt
post Nov 29 2004, 10:34 PM
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Well for one the armor on the car is gonna help a LOT more (any weapon with a base power lower the 11 dosent nick the paint). That and the armor spell is blue, and glowy, and much more 'not-legal' then 8" of rolled steel on the inside of your car.

Right, though if someone got a lucky glance I might clue them in as to how much.
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Tarantula
post Nov 29 2004, 10:38 PM
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QUOTE (Lindt @ Nov 29 2004, 05:34 PM)
Well for one the armor on the car is gonna help a LOT more (any weapon with a base power lower the 11 dosent nick the paint).

Actually, base power less than 23M wouldn't touch it. Vehicles halve the number, and then reduce by one damage level versus non-anti-vehicular rounds.

Edit: Damage level fixed, cause I cant round down in my head today :P
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BitBasher
post Nov 29 2004, 10:40 PM
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Actually an armor of 11 means any normal weapon with a base power lower than 23 and/or not at least moderate wound level cannot hurtr you.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 29 2004, 10:43 PM
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Actually, it covers 23 as well. When you halve the Power, you round down.

~J
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 29 2004, 11:00 PM
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Even a Light Pistol with AV ammo will have no problem with it, however, since it reduces the vehicle's armor in half without being affected by the halving/power reduction effect of standard ammunitions.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 29 2004, 11:01 PM
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So very true.

~J
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Tarantula
post Nov 29 2004, 11:02 PM
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True, but even halved, the light pistol would be taking a -5 from the armor left. Nothing too terrible until you consider the burst SMG with AV.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 29 2004, 11:06 PM
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Unless a rigger is actively in the vehicle, it doesn't really matter. A vehicle all by its lonesome is toast against anyone with a decent Combat Skill. Though if they do, chances are they loaded something more like a Shotgun or Heavy Pistol with the AV ammo rather than a Light Pistol -- it's just that a Light Pistol [/i]can[/i] damage even a heavily armored vehicle without a problem.
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Thistledown
post Nov 30 2004, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
... would undoubtedly up the Street Index (SI) to 2+ making it more expensive to buy a more or less "stock" security vehicle.

I know my players will want to make some vehicles (since the R3 offers limited designs and lacks some basic types) and I am anticipating them buying "stock" vehicles and then customizing them to avoid high initial SI of security-class vehicles. The trade off is now they must content with not only SI/Availability, Time and Equipment needed.

What about custom vehicles at chargen? I am considering using the Availability 8 rules for customizations as long as they have the $$ to do what they want (with GM approval of coarse) since chargen time if rather interperative.

Most of the riggers I know buy almost all their vehicles at chargen. Remember that street index doesn't matter then and you can get quite a bit for availability 8, especialy if you build it yourself.

If you can take something as a design option instead of a customization, do it. If it ends up with a high street index, stock up at chargen and buy the normal street index cars later.
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Solstice
post Nov 30 2004, 06:39 PM
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I'm not sure about the whole vehicle design thing. I was able to design a pretty badass helo for only 400k. Not to say the rules don't have a use it's just that it is a munchkin magnet.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 30 2004, 06:41 PM
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Again, having something added at design means A) you need to defend its existence in the world and B) it will exist in that form owned by others as well.

Solstice: that helo would have an Avail of 20 before other modifications, and would thus be solidly unavailable at chargen.
~J
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Lindt
post Nov 30 2004, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 29 2004, 07:00 PM)
Even a Light Pistol with AV ammo will have no problem with it, however, since it reduces the vehicle's armor in half without being affected by the halving/power reduction effect of standard ammunitions.

Nope. Light pistol by cannon cant do jackshit. Damage code of L means it dosent do anything, reguardless of power. So your SMG with a base code of 6L wont do anything, FA bursts with AV or not.



This post has been edited by Lindt: Nov 30 2004, 06:50 PM
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