Hermetics,shamans,Idol warshipersand voodoo people, Oh MY! Options

[Cynic project]

Well, I was looking into the the past of shadowrun,and it dawned on me.Well a few things did.

First off, it maybe that it takes more magic for hermtics to really come about than it does the other people. Look at it this way, shamans and the rest could be said that they have a "god", or some power that helps them. Or it could be as simple as the shaman, has a face to put on magic.Sort of like religion and science. If you do not understand something you may well try to explain by something you can understand. So when magic comes back, the shamans get a kick start because frankly no one knew what magic really was. I mean right now if you walked up to 100 gamers,fantasy buff or just random people and asked them what was magic, you would many different awnsers. So let's go to the game world 2011.. Magic comes back,and it awakens the first batch of people. They don't know what is going on, and I think that because of this unknown more became shamanic as a buffer.

Now let's talk about totems. Do you chose your totem or does your totem chose you.Well, if I am right and it acts as buffer,and sos that it is the shaman reaching out for it, it could be either way.I mean it could be that your mind is seeking a face that it will feel comfortable with. Or just one that will scare you,maybe another reason all together. On the other hand totems could be for lack of a better word gods. They could see those reaching into the dark and picking those they see fit. This anwser would explain why those who are montheistict have totems that aren't of their religion.

And this leads me to my last point.Why is it hard to believe that someone who have the Idol Mars(or any of the other "dead" gods),over the totem Dog? Does the Jew find more comfort in the idea of a mystical dog, than he does a God of a long dead religion?

[Ol' Scratch]

Non-hermetics have the same difficulty in learning how to weild magic as hermetics do. The only significant difference is that most other traditions don't require such pricey materials as part of their training; Hermetic Libraries and Elemental Conjuring Materials are ridiculously overpriced. But that's pretty much the only limiting factor between all of them.

[Cynic project]

Yes,and no. You are looking form a game mechanic,I am looking from a story point of view. Why would their be more shamans,or rather would they be more powerful in the teens. also note that shamans can throw bigger spells,and do not need as many tools to help them learn or at least make spells. So I would say they have easier time. They just also have to be balanced out with hermetics or no one would play hermetics.

[Ol' Scratch]

The game mechanic sets the tone for the story point of view. Both have identical training requirements, only one has more expensive supplies required. Thus, both are learned with equal ease assuming you can gain access to the appropriate materials you need.

[mfb]

shamanic magic lends itself more easily to tradition, in general. whereas hermetic magic tends to require--or at least encourage--some actual understanding of the forces involved, shamanic magic will work as long as you do your rain dance the way your father taught you to (assuming you're Awakened). shamanic magic isn't more powerful; it just came into play earlier because the body of knowledge that supports it was already in place.

[Glyph]

Also keep in mind that hermetic magic, with its more logical approach to magic, does have advantages.

First, they don't have a shamanic mask, so it is harder to detect it when a hermetic casts a spell.

Secondly, seeing spirits as constructs of astral space bound to their will gives mages certain advantages - they can use elementals like they are magical batteries to sustain spells or improve spellcasting. They can also summon them on their downtime and keep them bound, so they can call on them at will later on. They can also call on more than one of these bound elementals at once. Shamans are stuck summoning one at a time, as they need them, and resisting Drain as they go.

Finally, hermetics are free of the mental restrictions that inhibit a shaman's freedom of action. They don't have to worry that Dog won't like it if they cut loose a team member who has become a liability. They don't have to worry that Dragonslayer will be displeased if they run away when it is tactically feasible. If they have to grit their teeth and do something unpleasant that will lead to greater good in the end, they don't have to worry about offending Eagle's morals.

[Bigity]

I wouldn't put the totem/shaman relationship as worship either. Respect to the totem yes, but it's not blind faith or unquestioningly following the totem either.

I've RPed shamans who are constantly at odds with certain ideals of totems, and sometimes this causes certain...problems with working magic, but like any RL relationship, it's a growth process, where the shaman is really learning more about himself, not learning how to do what he's told.

It would be interesting to see some fiction pieces on how religions, specifically the older churches (Catholic, Protestent, etc) feel about shamans who were or are Catholic or Christian or what have you, in regards to the totem relationship.

[Kagetenshi]

[Bigity]

I don't think so. Does any other game immediately remove all magic ability by say..not tithing to the temple the next time you get into town? No, but if you constantly do it, despite signs and portents, you get slammed.

I'd imagine it's the same, if not looser, in SR.

[Kagetenshi]

And if you consistently disobey your totem, you get slammed.

~J

[Bigity]

Well yea.

But do you see/play totems as actual beings who are directing the shaman on a consistent basis? It's hard for me to see that.

Let's take Dog, as an example. Some dogs are friendly and nice, who befriend new dogs or people easily. Some dogs have one master, and everyone else is a threat. The spectrum runs the whole spread.

So the shamans can also come from anywhere across the spectrum, and don't really have all _too_ much in common.

I've always looked at the totems as a set of ideals a shaman has, not from some totem telling him how to act, but as part of the person, and integral to how his magic works.

I've never liked how much the fiction books have made totems into beings that interact frequently with a shaman, but I guess I could be in a minority :)

What does everybody else think?

[Fortune]

It's the Shaman's connection to Magic, and his mind-set over how that Magic works for him that would be affected if he deviated dramatically from the Totem in question. Remember that a Shaman of Dog already thinks very much like the ideals of Dog before awakening, which is why his Magic expresses the way it does (ie. why Dog initially chose him or why he chose Dog).

[Cynic project]

But one of the key points I was making was why would a follower of "God", be more likely to fallow Dog,rather than Ares?

[the_dunner]

[Fortune]

[audun]

[Cynic project]

But look at this posts.

"Skeptical Clown

Does scandanavian folklore really have enough of a modern-day mystical tradition to justify Shadowrun-era magical traditions? I honestly don't know--it makes sense for voudoun or Native American spiritual traditions to have individual magical methods, since they have surviving mystical traditions today. Even neo-paganism like Wicca and the modern 'druids' can credibly be extended into a Shadowrun magic tradition. But I don't picture anyone, say, worshipping Thor anymore.

Well right, but the Idol-worship always seemed more like an adoption of a archetypical force, than the worship of a specific god or goddess. It just stretches credibility that anyone is going to start worshipping Odin or Zeus again, Awakening or no."

Why would it be harder to believe that Loki, would hold less sway over magic than Fox? They are both tricksters,and you most likely have heard about the same amount about both of them. But seeing as "Fox" has it's own entery as a totem. So it is seemingly easier to believe that somone would fallow Fox,or the Trickster,but not Loki....

[Kagetenshi]

Loki is The Trickster, or at least a The Trickster.

~J

[Cynic project]

I know this. I pointed this out. But the post I was replying to said it is alright to fallow the trickster idol..But Not Loki. I just wanted to know why people would have that problem,but not I fallow Fox,and not Trickster..How is Fox any different than Loki,is they are both totem/idols about tricks?

[mfb]

basically, the idols listed in MitS are archtypes for gods and pantheons. no one follows "The Sky Father" or "The Dark King"; they follow Jupiter (and use the stats of Sky Father) or Odin (and use the stats of Dark King). idols are not D&D-style gods; they're templates, to which you apply a name from mythology.

[Cynic project]

I fully understand that. But then again so are totems.The main differance is that they seem to have put more thought into totems,and so you have Dog,Wolf, Bear ECT.. for Totems,and you have Trickster, Dragon Slayer,and Moon Maiden ECT.. for Idols. Game mechanicely speaking Idols and Totems are inter changeable. Idols seem to be archtypes,but so do totems. But it may just be that it is as safe to not name human type higher powers,than it is to name animal ones.

[Synner]

Have you read the section regarding the Idols / Gods relationship in SOTA64? You may find it enlightening (or not)... it also addresses the issue of what happens when a God might be represented by different archetypes.

As I pointed out to Skeptical when he made that post, he didn't really check his facts before he made that statement. There is a RL contemporary (officially recognized too boot) religion called Asartu whose followers do worship Thor and Odin (and the rest of the Aesir). Shadowrun Norse magic evolved from this later day revival and not out of the blue.

[audun]

[mfb]

bah! everyone always thinks Odin should be Sky Father. he's Dark King, dammit!

[Synner]

Or Wise Warrior, Wild Huntsman and Creator depending on which aspect of his mythology your looking at...