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Cynic project
Well, I was looking into the the past of shadowrun,and it dawned on me.Well a few things did.

First off, it maybe that it takes more magic for hermtics to really come about than it does the other people. Look at it this way, shamans and the rest could be said that they have a "god", or some power that helps them. Or it could be as simple as the shaman, has a face to put on magic.Sort of like religion and science. If you do not understand something you may well try to explain by something you can understand. So when magic comes back, the shamans get a kick start because frankly no one knew what magic really was. I mean right now if you walked up to 100 gamers,fantasy buff or just random people and asked them what was magic, you would many different awnsers. So let's go to the game world 2011.. Magic comes back,and it awakens the first batch of people. They don't know what is going on, and I think that because of this unknown more became shamanic as a buffer.

Now let's talk about totems. Do you chose your totem or does your totem chose you.Well, if I am right and it acts as buffer,and sos that it is the shaman reaching out for it, it could be either way.I mean it could be that your mind is seeking a face that it will feel comfortable with. Or just one that will scare you,maybe another reason all together. On the other hand totems could be for lack of a better word gods. They could see those reaching into the dark and picking those they see fit. This anwser would explain why those who are montheistict have totems that aren't of their religion.

And this leads me to my last point.Why is it hard to believe that someone who have the Idol Mars(or any of the other "dead" gods),over the totem Dog? Does the Jew find more comfort in the idea of a mystical dog, than he does a God of a long dead religion?
Ol' Scratch
Non-hermetics have the same difficulty in learning how to weild magic as hermetics do. The only significant difference is that most other traditions don't require such pricey materials as part of their training; Hermetic Libraries and Elemental Conjuring Materials are ridiculously overpriced. But that's pretty much the only limiting factor between all of them.
Cynic project
Yes,and no. You are looking form a game mechanic,I am looking from a story point of view. Why would their be more shamans,or rather would they be more powerful in the teens. also note that shamans can throw bigger spells,and do not need as many tools to help them learn or at least make spells. So I would say they have easier time. They just also have to be balanced out with hermetics or no one would play hermetics.
Ol' Scratch
The game mechanic sets the tone for the story point of view. Both have identical training requirements, only one has more expensive supplies required. Thus, both are learned with equal ease assuming you can gain access to the appropriate materials you need.
mfb
shamanic magic lends itself more easily to tradition, in general. whereas hermetic magic tends to require--or at least encourage--some actual understanding of the forces involved, shamanic magic will work as long as you do your rain dance the way your father taught you to (assuming you're Awakened). shamanic magic isn't more powerful; it just came into play earlier because the body of knowledge that supports it was already in place.
Glyph
Also keep in mind that hermetic magic, with its more logical approach to magic, does have advantages.

First, they don't have a shamanic mask, so it is harder to detect it when a hermetic casts a spell.

Secondly, seeing spirits as constructs of astral space bound to their will gives mages certain advantages - they can use elementals like they are magical batteries to sustain spells or improve spellcasting. They can also summon them on their downtime and keep them bound, so they can call on them at will later on. They can also call on more than one of these bound elementals at once. Shamans are stuck summoning one at a time, as they need them, and resisting Drain as they go.

Finally, hermetics are free of the mental restrictions that inhibit a shaman's freedom of action. They don't have to worry that Dog won't like it if they cut loose a team member who has become a liability. They don't have to worry that Dragonslayer will be displeased if they run away when it is tactically feasible. If they have to grit their teeth and do something unpleasant that will lead to greater good in the end, they don't have to worry about offending Eagle's morals.
Bigity
I wouldn't put the totem/shaman relationship as worship either. Respect to the totem yes, but it's not blind faith or unquestioningly following the totem either.

I've RPed shamans who are constantly at odds with certain ideals of totems, and sometimes this causes certain...problems with working magic, but like any RL relationship, it's a growth process, where the shaman is really learning more about himself, not learning how to do what he's told.

It would be interesting to see some fiction pieces on how religions, specifically the older churches (Catholic, Protestent, etc) feel about shamans who were or are Catholic or Christian or what have you, in regards to the totem relationship.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Bigity)
but it's not blind faith or unquestioningly following the totem either.

That's a good way to wake up mundane one of these days.

~J
Bigity
I don't think so. Does any other game immediately remove all magic ability by say..not tithing to the temple the next time you get into town? No, but if you constantly do it, despite signs and portents, you get slammed.

I'd imagine it's the same, if not looser, in SR.
Kagetenshi
And if you consistently disobey your totem, you get slammed.

~J
Bigity
Well yea.

But do you see/play totems as actual beings who are directing the shaman on a consistent basis? It's hard for me to see that.

Let's take Dog, as an example. Some dogs are friendly and nice, who befriend new dogs or people easily. Some dogs have one master, and everyone else is a threat. The spectrum runs the whole spread.

So the shamans can also come from anywhere across the spectrum, and don't really have all _too_ much in common.

I've always looked at the totems as a set of ideals a shaman has, not from some totem telling him how to act, but as part of the person, and integral to how his magic works.

I've never liked how much the fiction books have made totems into beings that interact frequently with a shaman, but I guess I could be in a minority smile.gif

What does everybody else think?
Fortune
It's the Shaman's connection to Magic, and his mind-set over how that Magic works for him that would be affected if he deviated dramatically from the Totem in question. Remember that a Shaman of Dog already thinks very much like the ideals of Dog before awakening, which is why his Magic expresses the way it does (ie. why Dog initially chose him or why he chose Dog).
Cynic project
But one of the key points I was making was why would a follower of "God", be more likely to fallow Dog,rather than Ares?
the_dunner
QUOTE
But one of the key points I was making was why would a follower of "God", be more likely to fallow Dog,rather than Ares?


Well, sure, if he's dyslexic. rotfl.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Dec 1 2004, 08:17 AM)
But one of the key points I was making was why would a follower of "God", be more likely to fallow Dog,rather than Ares?

Because (he believes that) the ideals of both Dog and God are similar.
audun
QUOTE (Cynic project)
But one of the key points I was making was why would a follower of "God", be more likely to fallow Dog,rather than Ares?

You've read MiTS? That's what Idols are supposed to cover.
Cynic project
But look at this posts.

"Skeptical Clown

Does scandanavian folklore really have enough of a modern-day mystical tradition to justify Shadowrun-era magical traditions? I honestly don't know--it makes sense for voudoun or Native American spiritual traditions to have individual magical methods, since they have surviving mystical traditions today. Even neo-paganism like Wicca and the modern 'druids' can credibly be extended into a Shadowrun magic tradition. But I don't picture anyone, say, worshipping Thor anymore.

Well right, but the Idol-worship always seemed more like an adoption of a archetypical force, than the worship of a specific god or goddess. It just stretches credibility that anyone is going to start worshipping Odin or Zeus again, Awakening or no."

Why would it be harder to believe that Loki, would hold less sway over magic than Fox? They are both tricksters,and you most likely have heard about the same amount about both of them. But seeing as "Fox" has it's own entery as a totem. So it is seemingly easier to believe that somone would fallow Fox,or the Trickster,but not Loki....
Kagetenshi
Loki is The Trickster, or at least a The Trickster.

~J
Cynic project
I know this. I pointed this out. But the post I was replying to said it is alright to fallow the trickster idol..But Not Loki. I just wanted to know why people would have that problem,but not I fallow Fox,and not Trickster..How is Fox any different than Loki,is they are both totem/idols about tricks?
mfb
basically, the idols listed in MitS are archtypes for gods and pantheons. no one follows "The Sky Father" or "The Dark King"; they follow Jupiter (and use the stats of Sky Father) or Odin (and use the stats of Dark King). idols are not D&D-style gods; they're templates, to which you apply a name from mythology.
Cynic project
I fully understand that. But then again so are totems.The main differance is that they seem to have put more thought into totems,and so you have Dog,Wolf, Bear ECT.. for Totems,and you have Trickster, Dragon Slayer,and Moon Maiden ECT.. for Idols. Game mechanicely speaking Idols and Totems are inter changeable. Idols seem to be archtypes,but so do totems. But it may just be that it is as safe to not name human type higher powers,than it is to name animal ones.
Synner
Have you read the section regarding the Idols / Gods relationship in SOTA64? You may find it enlightening (or not)... it also addresses the issue of what happens when a God might be represented by different archetypes.

As I pointed out to Skeptical when he made that post, he didn't really check his facts before he made that statement. There is a RL contemporary (officially recognized too boot) religion called Asartu whose followers do worship Thor and Odin (and the rest of the Aesir). Shadowrun Norse magic evolved from this later day revival and not out of the blue.



audun
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown via Cynic Project)
Does scandanavian folklore really have enough of a modern-day mystical tradition to justify Shadowrun-era magical traditions?  I honestly don't know--it makes sense for voudoun or Native American spiritual traditions to have individual magical methods, since they have surviving mystical traditions today.  Even neo-paganism like Wicca and the modern 'druids' can credibly be extended into a Shadowrun magic tradition.  But I don't picture anyone, say, worshipping Thor anymore.

I've met a few and actually had long email exchanges with one of them during the EuroSB project. She didn't worship Thor, but she was practicing seid and was very knowledgable about the subject (both from a New Age POV and an academic POV.) The exchanges influenced the material that ended up in SOTA2064 (+ a lot of material that didn't make the cut).
QUOTE (Cynic project)
I fully understand that. But then again so are totems.The main differance is that they seem to have put more thought into totems,and so you have Dog,Wolf, Bear ECT.. for Totems,and you have Trickster, Dragon Slayer,and Moon Maiden ECT.. for Idols. Game mechanicely speaking Idols and Totems are inter changeable. Idols seem to be archtypes,but so do totems. But it may just be that it is as safe to not name human type higher powers,than it is to name animal ones.


You're on track. Idols doesn't do justification to the pagan gods. I believe Idols are a leftover from the FASA days when everything was a tad more politically correct, or at least they were more careful not to step on anybody's toes and feed the "RPGs are the work of the devil"-beast. The Idol descriptions sometimes fits very closely to one god (Trickster and Loki for instance), but sometimes doesn't really fit to anyone (Sky Father is a very limited understanding of Odin/Wotan or Zeus). Having each god as an Idol in itself might be a better idea, but then again gods are complex arcehtypes/entities, more so than Totems. Writing a totem description would simply be too difficult. A completly new system for pagan magic was one option, the Idols as aspects of gods/archetypes was the option we went with (in SOTA2064). If you have any ideas on how pagan magic should work in SR, please post them. The rules as is are far from perfect, maybe a new or revised system for pagan magic could make it's way to a webiste or something. If you don't have any better ideas I belive you've made your point now. smile.gif

Seems like Synner replied before I was finished with my reply.
mfb
bah! everyone always thinks Odin should be Sky Father. he's Dark King, dammit!
Synner
Or Wise Warrior, Wild Huntsman and Creator depending on which aspect of his mythology your looking at...
Glyph
I kind of prefer the Totems and Idols as vague archetypes that can vary from one shaman to another. Some might see their Totem or Idol in terms of their religion, while others see it as an anthropomorphized ideal to follow. I think the broad behavioral restrictions and disadvantages, which still allow for lots of variation, are more than enough. I would not want every shaman to have to play the equivalent of an AD&D cleric.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (audun)
QUOTE (Cynic project)
I fully understand that. But then again so are totems.The main differance is that they seem to have put more thought into totems,and so you have Dog,Wolf, Bear ECT.. for Totems,and you have Trickster, Dragon Slayer,and Moon Maiden ECT.. for Idols. Game mechanicely speaking Idols and Totems are inter changeable. Idols seem to be archtypes,but so do totems. But it may just be that it is as safe to not name human type higher powers,than it is to name animal ones.


You're on track. Idols doesn't do justification to the pagan gods. I believe Idols are a leftover from the FASA days when everything was a tad more politically correct, or at least they were more careful not to step on anybody's toes and feed the "RPGs are the work of the devil"-beast. The Idol descriptions sometimes fits very closely to one god (Trickster and Loki for instance), but sometimes doesn't really fit to anyone (Sky Father is a very limited understanding of Odin/Wotan or Zeus). Having each god as an Idol in itself might be a better idea, but then again gods are complex arcehtypes/entities, more so than Totems. Writing a totem description would simply be too difficult. A completly new system for pagan magic was one option, the Idols as aspects of gods/archetypes was the option we went with (in SOTA2064). If you have any ideas on how pagan magic should work in SR, please post them. The rules as is are far from perfect, maybe a new or revised system for pagan magic could make it's way to a webiste or something. If you don't have any better ideas I belive you've made your point now. smile.gif

Seems like Synner replied before I was finished with my reply.

The real problem with panthestic magic rules is that there are so many gods that it is impossible to include every one that a character might worship. The idols system relieved this by including many gods under the umbrella of a single idol.
Getting rid of the idols would require independant totem modifiers for every diety and has ever and will ever be worshipped, not an easy task. Another option would be to remove the totem modifier from idol worshippers alltogether, but that isn't fair. The totem modifier is an important part of Shamantic magic. A better solution might be rules to make custom totem modifiers.
Bonus dice for spell classes, spirit types, time, or other conditions are worth a certain amount of points. Penalities of the same type are worth negative points. The pagan shaman must choose a set of modifiers that total 0. It would be wise to rule that different types of modifiers cannon be stacked, as it would lead to someone taking a spell catagory bonus and a time bonus to get double the effects.
Cynic project
How many Totems are there?I like the idea of picking bonuses,but my point was really that totems should fallow the same rules as idols,and not the other way around.
Synner
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Dec 3 2004, 10:20 PM)
The real problem with panthestic magic rules is that there are so many gods that it is impossible to include every one that a character might worship. The idols system relieved this by including many gods under the umbrella of a single idol.
Getting rid of the idols would require independant totem modifiers for every diety and has ever and will ever be worshipped, not an easy task.  Another option would be to remove the totem modifier from idol worshippers alltogether, but that isn't fair. The totem modifier is an important part of Shamantic magic.  A better solution might be rules to make custom totem modifiers.

I take it you're not familiar or dislike the Panthaestic shaman rules from MITS (page 16) and the add-on in SOTA64 (page 122) which offers a paganistic approach reasoning for the varying modifiers from MITS. Personally I've never had a problem with either.
hyzmarca
I have no problem with the current rules, they're as good as any and better than most; I was just posting an idea with a little more flexibility in response to the posts of others.
Cynic project
I just read the stuff in SOTA2064 and I have to say it didn't really fix the problem.It just changed it. You take a man who is religiously a follower of Thor.If he is magically active, why would his Idol be any more likely to be Thor? Or what if he is a hermetic?

Why is that Christianility seems to be the only religion to no judge on where the magic comes from,and judges the person who uses it. Not all of Christianilty but more than a lot of the others.

Or rather if I belive in the "One true God" I could be stuck with any number of totems or what not,but if I believed in Odin,I would get the Idol Odin. And what if I didn't beleive in any God? WOuld that mean I would be hermetic? WOuld that also mean if I was shaman,I would have to fallow a toem,and not an Idol?
mfb
mabye because one's magical ability isn't always related to their belief structure. just because you worship the aesir doesn't mean that you're a shaman of one or all of them.
John Campbell
I've a long-standing character who is Asatru and a hermetic sorcerer, and the gaming police have yet to kick down my door and force me to make him an idol shaman. His religion and his magic are not totally separate, but he believes magic to be a power external to the gods, that they are simply superhumanly capable with, not a power granted to mortals by the gods. His magical rituals are based on Norse mythology, but are not prayers to Odin or other Ęsir, but, rather, attempts to emulate them. (His first initiation involved spending nine days hanging from an oak.)

He's also a dwarf, and has as an article of faith that his ancestors were responsible for the forging of most of the Ęsir's artifacts of power, which perhaps skews his worldview somewhat.
audun
QUOTE (Cynic project)
I just read the stuff in SOTA2064 and I have to say it didn't really fix the problem.It just changed it. You take a man who is religiously a follower of Thor.If he is magically active, why would his Idol be any more likely to be Thor? Or what if he is a hermetic? 

I don't get the way you read the rules. The system is very flexible and allows for any variation you might ask for.
To answer your questions:
- if your Idol is Thor (or rather an aspect of Thor) this means that you identify yourself with some ideals connected to Thor. If you are Įsatru (religiously a follower of Thor and the rest of the Aesir) you are likely to interpret your magical forces within these beliefs. That's all there is to it according to the rules. You might be a Christian or Atheist and still have Thor as your Idol as long as the values and ideals connected to Thor is something you identify with and tries to live according to. You may also be an Įsatru and practice hermetic magic, no rules against it. It is all a matter of how the character interprets his magic. The rules has guidelines to what is most common, there are no definite no regarding combinations of magic and religion.

QUOTE
Why is that Christianility seems to be the only religion to no judge on where the magic comes from,and judges the person who uses it. Not all of Christianilty but more than a lot of the others. 

- that's a theological question and they don't agree among each other. It is a matter to be resolved in-game, with the schism in the Catholic Church as one example. But of course it also has much to do with "political correctness" where the original designers didn't want to step on anyone's toes.

QUOTE
Or rather if I belive in the "One true God" I could be stuck with any number of totems or what not,but if I believed in Odin,I would get the Idol Odin. And what if I didn't beleive in any God? WOuld that mean I would be hermetic? WOuld that also mean if I was shaman,I would have to fallow a toem,and not an Idol?

The answer to all of these "what if's" are NO! RTFB. I'm amazed at your ability to misinterpret the rules. It says clearly in SOTA2064 that Idols |= gods.

Edit: To John Campbell:
The gaming police are to busy rounding up those who still play SR2 and refuses to make the switch smokin.gif

But is'a cool character. He may end up as a Norse talismonger in one of my campaigns, (and I think your way of playing his magic is entirely correct, Norse magic is not about prayers).
Synner
Audun is correct. SOTA64 even specifically presents two different approaches to "Norse magic" to help you understand that there are subtle distinctions (namely the Pagan Norse magicians and the Teutonic paradigm Hermetics).

Idols are frameworks of archetypical ideals and concepts that the magican identifies with and help him focus his spiritual and esoteric development in a certain direction. If a magician is also a believer in a given faith, it is likelier (though not certain) that he will view such ideals through the prism of his belief and interpret them in the context of his faith's cosmology. As such a Norse gode might look to Wotan/Odin as symbolic of the ideal he seeks, choosing the Wise Warrior aspect of the many facets of the All-Father to pay homage to - and as a idealized mental construct to focus his magic use.

If you're an Asartu believer, it's far likelier that you will percieve the Gods of the pantheon you actually believe in as an Ideal/Idol/divine aspect to emulate, than a figure/idol drawn from another religion (ie. Loki instead of say Coyote, Eris or Hanuman).
Snow_Fox
I'd dispute the idea of"Mars" et al being "dead gods." Just because you don't call an old boy friend, doesn't mean he's not around anymore.

In RL Voodoun, the belief is that the loa are not so much gods themselves as they are intermediaries between mortals and the ultimate divine, because if you were to view the true power of God it would fry your mind. The closest western tradition is in Judeo-Christian mythology that you dare not look at God's face. Moses saw him as a burning bush and column of fire, He walked past Isaiah who only saw the back of his head etc. and so mortals deal with angels who go to God. Only the loa of Voodoun are more "earthy."

Magicians are more scientific, they have access of abilities that let them understand the nature of the universe better than mundanes. Super-natural means beyond nature. Instead they have a better understanding of the rules of nature and how they work and can be manipulated. Why on 1% of the population have the potential for htis is unknown.

Shamanitc types are rather different. They don't view it in the same way, so the question is that they either see more or less than the nature of the universe. Are they less able to handle it so that their minds make an imaginary friend to explain it all too them? OR do they see rather more of it and reach beyond the magcians' understanding of sturcture to the "entity/beings" beyond the material world?
Cynic project
QUOTE (mfb)
mabye because one's magical ability isn't always related to their belief structure. just because you worship the aesir doesn't mean that you're a shaman of one or all of them.

And I can go with that,and that is not my problem. My problem is that this set of ideals doesn't seem equally true to all. In other words some people who believe in one set of "Gods" and other who belive in another are not treated the same way.

It seems from the point of view of the authors,that it is unlikely for someone who religiously fallows Odin,to get the Idol Mars,God, or Mithris. But Someone who is Jewish is just as likely to get the Idol Mars,Odin, or mithris as anyone else. Even more so it is some how far more likely for her to get Dog,Cat, Ox, or some totem.

So on one hand they say that it dosen't mater what power you prey to when it comes to magic, but at the same time you do not have many Idol followers in the NAN, but you have plenty of Totem followers in Rome.
Synner
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Dec 6 2004, 10:26 PM)
It seems from the point of view of the authors,that it is unlikely for someone who religiously fallows Odin,to get the Idol Mars,God, or Mithris. But Someone who is Jewish is just as likely to get the Idol Mars,Odin, or mithris as anyone else. Even more so it is some how far more likely for her to get Dog,Cat, Ox, or some totem.

You are correct regarding the first statement but I have no idea where you're getting the second one from.

Yes, it is highly unlikely that someone who believes in the Aesir will follow Mars or the Christian God as an Idol, for the same reasons it makes little sense for a Wiccan today to pay tribute to the Kami or Baron Samedi. A lot of people tend to forget that while characters practice magic as individuals and have their ideosyncracies, magic lore is divided into traditions and schools/paradigms of magic. Traditions represent entire schools of thought, and schools divide these into distinct groupings lore and beliefs, rituals, cosmologies and magical systems, that represent the common ground of all practioners of that school. These paradigms are the common ground between all magicians that practice them and represent a basic framework for magic they all share. Most also assume the magician is taught by someone who already practices the same magic. Finally, these paradigms (hermetic and otherwise) are also grounded in the cultures and societies that gave birth to them, simply because many of the references they use are ingrained into a particular culture rather than being universal (an American magician trying to learn an invocation written in Japanese script and using Nipponic esoteric symbology isn't going to learn much).

It is improbable (meaning it would require serious explaining) that an Awakened American Indian born and grown in the NAN would develop his talent along the Path of Wuxing, the Path of the Wheel or Neo-Pagan Druidism. Why? Simply because there's no cultural reference for him to use or build on, excepting a fortitiously placed wandering druid or wujen, he simply lacks the references.

Your mistaken about the Christians as well, I've mentioned on numerous occasions (recently here, here and extensively here and here) the problems arising from trying to be a shaman in the Roman Catholic Church (even one with God as an Idol) and you should expect the same sort of problem for any Jew following a non-Hebrew Idol figure (in fact that would automatically disqualify anyone from even learning Jewish Orthodox Qabbalah -note: not Hermetic Qabbalah).

QUOTE
So on one hand they say that it dosen't mater what power you prey to when it comes to magic, but at the same time you do not have many Idol followers in the NAN, but you have plenty of Totem followers in Rome.

That's simply because the way you view the world and hence magic, has very much to do with the culture and society you are brought up in. It is highly unlikely someone brought up in Japan would ever follow an aspect of Thor as an Idol simply because it's not a reference he will recognize and identify with on a spiritual level. And if there is a Japanese God that matches Thor, its far more likely the emerging Idol follower would chose an aspect of that diety simply because it is a cultural and religious reference he understands.
mfb
cynic, it can be determined from the sourcebooks that the various totems do not simply pick people at random to grant their power to. a trend like that--japanese people getting power from Thor, christians getting power from Wolf, etc.--would certainly have been remarked upon at some point, in some book. if the various totems exist as entities, then they are apparently limited to granting their power to only certain people--basically, people who would follow/emulate a given totem even without the draw of magic. the animal totems seem to be a bit more free, in regards to whom can recieve their power, probably because people of every religion and ethnicity compare people with animals ("eyes like a hawk", "eager beaver", etcetra). people in japan, however, don't very often go around comparing someone's search for knowledge to the trials of Odin, however, so Odin isn't going to grant any power to 99% of japanese mages.
Garland
QUOTE (Synner)


Your mistaken about the Christians as well, I've mentioned on numerous occasions (recently here, here and extensively here and here) the problems arising from trying to be a shaman in the Roman Catholic Church (even one with God as an Idol) and you should expect the same sort of problem for any Jew following a non-Hebrew Idol figure (in fact that would automatically disqualify anyone from even learning Jewish Orthodox Qabbalah -note: not Hermetic Qabbalah).

I think you're overestimating the power Church doctrine has over the lives of its members. If individual Catholics (in the US, for example) can countenance or even support abortion and/or the death penalty, both of which the Church sternly opposes in no uncertain terms, then individual Catholics can certainly become shamans.

Since we're talking about fictional people, I would suggest that their power somehow be integrated with their religious belief. Yes, the Church is likely to disapprove; is this going to matter to someone fairly individualistic (like a shaman), no. If they feel, on a personal level, that everything works out between them and God, it's a-okay.
Synner
If you read my comments again (both linked and in this thread), you will note that I was referring specifically to members of the Catholic clergy, and not any Catholic believer in response to Cynic's comments regarding "Totem followers in Rome" which to me seemed to indicate he was too. The Catholic Church has no intention of regulating magic practices beyond its own clergy.

Whether a Catholic believer who had a strict and conservative Catholic worldview drilled into him, and happens to have the Talent would ever be able to Awaken as a shaman is another issue entirely.
Cynic project
QUOTE (mfb)
cynic, it can be determined from the sourcebooks that the various totems do not simply pick people at random to grant their power to. a trend like that--japanese people getting power from Thor, christians getting power from Wolf, etc.--would certainly have been remarked upon at some point, in some book. if the various totems exist as entities, then they are apparently limited to granting their power to only certain people--basically, people who would follow/emulate a given totem even without the draw of magic. the animal totems seem to be a bit more free, in regards to whom can recieve their power, probably because people of every religion and ethnicity compare people with animals ("eyes like a hawk", "eager beaver", etcetra). people in japan, however, don't very often go around comparing someone's search for knowledge to the trials of Odin, however, so Odin isn't going to grant any power to 99% of japanese mages.

So, why does Dog have more power than God? This my point. Why do they point out that some people all around the world fallow animals, and only is small places or mind sets do they fallow gods?
Kagetenshi
Because Dog is cool. God is, like, so 1400s.

Also because they're called shamans, being people who commune with the spirit world in animistic societies. If they called them, say, "priests" it'd probably be the other way around.

~J
Cynic project
Um, you haven't done a lot of studding,have you? Shamans have come in many forms,some of them fallowed gods,animals,forces of nature,land masses, stellar bodies,and so on. There are many of shamans who preyed to the Sun. Is the sun animal?
mfb
QUOTE (cynic project)
So, why does Dog have more power than God?

my answer to that question would be that dogs are more common than YHWHs. every culture has dogs; their characteristics are well-known, and dogs tend to be viewed much the same way from culture to culture. if a frenchman and and a chinese man describe someone as having doglike qualities (assuming they're not being insulting), they're probably describing similar personality traits: loyalty, etcetera. the christian god, however, is much less prevalent. lots of different people have lots of different opinions on him; his status in what i guess i'll call the collective unconscious (referring to similarities in mindsets, not actual links between minds) is much less stable than that of a dog's.

basically, everybody knows what dogs are, and can espouse the qualities of dogginess as being positive. not everyone can do that with YHWH, so YWHW's ability to link up with the Awakened is more limited.

this is all, however, only my opinion.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Dec 7 2004, 05:38 PM)
Um, you haven't done a lot of studding,have you?

No, I've never been used as breeding stock. I have, however, done some studying, which seems to be more than you've done. Where the fuck have you gotten the idea that I discounted any of what you listed? In the societies that practiced shamanism gods tended to be identified as natural entities rather than as their own independent entities. YHWH does not fit the shamanistic mindset. Ra doesn't really either, but the Sun definitely does.

Edit: So if you want an example of why an Odin shaman is ridiculous, check out Norse mythology where Odin is listed as the foremost shaman. Unless we don't mind Daniel Howling Coyote shamans, though I guess if we've already got Toaster...

~J
John Campbell
Note that "animal" and "animistic", despite sharing a common etymological origin - Latin anima, "spirit" - do not mean the same thing.
Cynic project
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (cynic project)
So, why does Dog have more power than God?

my answer to that question would be that dogs are more common than YHWHs. every culture has dogs; their characteristics are well-known, and dogs tend to be viewed much the same way from culture to culture. if a frenchman and and a chinese man describe someone as having doglike qualities (assuming they're not being insulting), they're probably describing similar personality traits: loyalty, etcetera. the christian god, however, is much less prevalent. lots of different people have lots of different opinions on him; his status in what i guess i'll call the collective unconscious (referring to similarities in mindsets, not actual links between minds) is much less stable than that of a dog's.

basically, everybody knows what dogs are, and can espouse the qualities of dogginess as being positive. not everyone can do that with YHWH, so YWHW's ability to link up with the Awakened is more limited.

this is all, however, only my opinion.

And then you have Superman,Ares Macrotech,the computer,and so on. I do not think it is based only on idea their characteristics are well-known. As noted there are many things that are welll known and are not Idols or Totems on wide scales.
mfb
that's because you keep insisting on seeing totems and idols as cohesive entities. if you wanted to make a shaman of Superman in my game, i'd probably let you, as long as i thought you could play it well--you'd probably end up being a shaman of the Dragonslayer totem. a shaman of Ares Macrotech, probably not, simply because Ares doesn't tend to inspire deeply-held attitudes and beliefs.
Cynic project
If you get a large enough group of people in anyone type of group you will have those who are fanatic about it. You have millions of people working for Ares, and as stated in SOTA2064 the big boys do a lot to keep their workers happy. You are likely to find that people will truly believe that Ares is the great hope of USA. That in Ares they trust.


But I went to reading the basic book,and it has a strange little passage.Totems chose it's followers. It is really odd, and it is magic,so I can say this. I do not like the rules,and the mood that they have choosen for this part of the game,I do have to say that it is better than anything I have read in any other game.
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