 The awakened, and the broke, Currently the rules nerf mundanes |
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 Dec 1 2004, 09:59 PM
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#101
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789  |
Second edition people he only needed 410 karma to hit 43 karma dice. oh the joys of being an metahumna in SRII
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Dec 1 2004, 10:15 PM
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#102
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
The joys were somewhat offset by having to pay Priority A for Race.
Ah, well. It was better than SR1, where you not only had to pay Priority A for Race, you got slapped with mandatory allergies, with extra bonus severity for trolls. |
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Dec 1 2004, 10:17 PM
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#103
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Oh, duh. You mean the bioware penalties to healing rolls. Oh, I'm swift today. |
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Dec 1 2004, 10:18 PM
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#104
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
410, 820... doesn't matter. Both result in god-like beings.
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Dec 1 2004, 10:22 PM
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#105
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Well, at the time we were doing 1/10 for everybody, so that was 420 karma (first ones free!). I think the final karma total may have been 46, but its been a few years since I've looked at it. It was 2ed when metahumans were Priority A, and people used the priority system, so the character would look a little different if he had been made and played in 3ed (esp since a lot of things reversed between the systems, costs for improving stats and skills, for instance).
As to the second point, had the group been stable and everyone progressed together, we would have had roughly similar karma totals, but that wasn't the way the breaks broke. For one thing, it seemed like the more powerful a character was, the quicker he died. Part of this was being targeted by the gm for being, well, a big target, and part of it was a Superman complex. Powerful characters tend to be confident, and in SR, there is a tendecy to win every fight but the last. I was always aware of my limitations, so I was always (or at least, usually) cautious, so I outlived a lot of "better" characters. Lastly, I didn't play with one group, though the groups I did play with I did so fairly steadily for a few years at a time. There was a couple of one shots here and there, but the bulk of the time it was spent in two groups. Again, having a lower powered character worked in my favor, because where a GM would have serious reservations about letting a mage or a sam with 240 karma into a game, a private detective with no cyber or magic seemed almost tame, even compared to starting characters. (Which is why, for a long time, people thought I was a phys ad, even though I was mundane. Combat wise, I was about even with a starting, 2ed phys ad for the bulk of my career.) Lastly (for real this time), I tend to be faithful to a character. When I find one I like, I play the hell out of it. Something I've noticed in SR, moreso than other systems, is people switch out a lot. I'll have one main character, and one back up (a necessity since it always seemed like there would be more than one game going in those days), and thats what I'd play. Everybody else would dabble in various concepts (or be forced to dabble when their beloved sam or mage got salsa'd). |
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Dec 2 2004, 06:28 PM
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#106
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
I have grown up rather sheltered (our local policeman used a motorized bike - 25 kph max) and still I knew that there are such things as criminals, burglars, drug dealers... You see, there is that thing called television! And it has that thing called a news show! There they speak about this stuff! Even 2060. Otto Normalverbraucher may not know the exact way magic works (and be even more paranoid for that reason) but the news have told him of invisible thiefs and mind-controlling rapists. Or the movies have (and most people sadly believe in movies) A total ignorant must have spend his live in a cave, being raised by wolfs, a bear and a panther. Birdy |
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Dec 2 2004, 06:39 PM
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#107
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Nah, in Shadowrun anyone being raised by wolves, a bear and a panther has got to be some freaky powerful shaman who has simultaneous full access to three totems. |
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Dec 2 2004, 06:50 PM
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#108
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Besides, all the bears are Piasma, all the Wolves are transformed mages, and all the Panthers are shapeshifters.
~J |
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Dec 2 2004, 06:52 PM
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#109
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
But you get a tiger as an enemy and a coyote to snitch and sniffel on you. And don't forget the apes! Birdy |
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Dec 2 2004, 06:54 PM
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#110
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
And the guy who grew up in the cave is probably a vampire anyway (I mean, the cave will protect you from the sun, right?)
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Dec 2 2004, 06:55 PM
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#111
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024 |
Hey...you guys have been reading my character sheet!
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Dec 2 2004, 07:11 PM
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#112
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Na, just a simple woodcutters son that got lost. But he has a friend who is a snake, a big snake. And is on good terms with a few elefants. Birdy |
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Dec 3 2004, 12:09 AM
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#113
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Coming soon to a cinema near you - Jungle Book 2064!
I wonder if Mowgli was a Way of the Hunter physad? :D |
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Dec 3 2004, 07:39 AM
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#114
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 301 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Tampa, FL Member No.: 6,602 |
The parallel that isn't: Solstice didn't say that his character didn't know there was magic out there, as you indicated that you knew of the existence of drug dealers. He said that not all mundanes, and I quote, "know exactly how magic works". Do you think in your small town that all the cops knew the going street rate for a kilo of coke? Or how much profit you could expect to make if you flipped it by the O-zee. Or what "flipping", "a lick", or other slangs even meant. Someone else said that there'd be news casts explaining magic. Sure, and currently we have news casts explaining the dangers of cyber fraud. But, magic is very rare in 2065 (despite the frequency among PC's). The odds that an invisible mage will perv on you, has to be comparable to a hacker stealing your CC info. Go ask your mom and dad what their firewall settings are. The majority will be ignorant of cyber threats, but they will know they exist. I'm glad to see a lot of people have stated that there are powerful high level mundane PC's, but none have stated that they are on par w/ the mage w/ the same amount of total karma earned. Your Sam might get more resources than my mage, but for 1 spell point, and 15k I get +3d6 to init. You need that nuyen to try to even out w/ Boosted reflexes or wired. At higher levels your 12 dice in stealth will be better than my level one invis, but not at the low levels. And I'll get enough milage out of such a cheap investment so that it more than makes up for it. Not to mention, your prime runner gun bunny will end up w/ a skill in 6 w/ many weapons, but only one (possibly specialized) skill of 12 or so. I only have to improve my one skill spec of spellcasting to 12 to match. That stunbolt at serious poses little drain threat either. I think many of you don't want to admit the simple facts. I mean, come on. If you were on the design team for SR4, are you really telling me that you wouldn't change anything for balance???? |
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Dec 3 2004, 07:41 AM
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#115
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You're telling me that 1% of the population is hackers? Keep in mind, that's how "rare" magic is.
~J |
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Dec 3 2004, 07:57 AM
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#116
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
No, if anything, if I was on the team for SR4, I'd increase the presence of Magic and make it more prevalent and powerful. The further ahead you move in time, the more you are moving towards a higher mana level. OK, so that view may not be exactly Canon, but it is a view expoused by our Mr Ultimate - Harlequin in one of the Dragon Heart novels (I think). |
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Dec 3 2004, 08:17 AM
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#117
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
When you figure in the value of the Spell Points (two, not just one... you have to buy the spell and bond the sustaining focus) and the price of the sustaining focus, the cost of Increase Reflexes +3 is not wildly out of line with the costs of cyber reflex enhancements... with the arguable exception of Boosted 3, every cyber reflex enhancer more expensive than Increase Reflexes is superior, and every one cheaper is inferior. Also keep in mind that it's basically the only reflex enhancement a mage can get without screwing himself, and that it's inferior to the high-end cyber enhancements that any serious speed sammy will have. Every combat mage I've ever played has had Increase Reflexes, and none of them have ever been the fastest PC in the group, either in average or theoretical max initiative. And, since it doesn't provide a Reaction bonus, it doesn't help in surprise situations at all (which is why Boosted 3 is arguable).
And I'm finding your repeated claim that mages have it easy because they only have one skill to raise laughable. Have you ever played a mage? They're the biggest Karma whores in the game! Raising Sorcery is competing for their precious Karma points with initiating, learning new spells, bonding foci, enchanting foci, Quickening spells, raising wards, etc., in addition to all the mundane things that they can do with their Karma. And, yes, that includes raising other skills than Sorcery... mages have Conjuring, Enchanting, Aura Reading, Centering and linked skills, Divination and linked skills, just for the purely magic skills, plus the usual assortment of mundane skills (usually, granted, a much smaller selection of them than mundanes have... but that's because they generally start with fewer Skill Points and have all those magic skills to spread them around in). |
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Dec 3 2004, 08:38 AM
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#118
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 301 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Tampa, FL Member No.: 6,602 |
Yes, I have. As I've mentioned previously, my main character is a 100+ karma Troll Sorcerer. Initiate level 4, one level was used to off set a magic point loss due to a deadly wound during my third run. I don't quicken, I don't do wards, I don't enchant (though I'm bounded w/ a 1/1 weapon/anchor focus), I can't conjure, I wish I hadn't started out w/ Aura Reading, as it isn't worth the points (thus, I never raised it), no centering, no divination. Yeah... those would be some karma sinks, but they aren't needed. I've mainly added knowledge skills (cheap), increased my spellcasting, and my combat ax skill. I've also spent karma on additional spells, and a little bonding. That may not be your style, but I rock through published mods both in and out of combat. Admittedly, a Troll Sorcerer may be a little more exploitive than a Dwarf full mage, for example. |
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Dec 3 2004, 08:56 AM
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#119
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
So, in reality you are basing your erroneous assumptions upon playing a single, half-gimped Magical character. :please:
As (many) others here have asserted, Magic is not anywhere near as broken as you make it out to be. |
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Dec 3 2004, 09:06 AM
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#120
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 8-October 04 Member No.: 6,736 |
A small town person wouldn't know those things, but those would represent an actual knowledge skill in Drugs or Drug Dealing. A small-towner is probably going to know that cocaine is a white, powdery substance that is snorted through the nose. A mundane will know that invisibility makes it tough to see you, but that you can still be heard and effects of your passing can still be seen. They may not know about still being visible in astral space, and would probably be surprised that you can't be seen by thermo. Seriously, most of the mundane solutions to invisibility are just common sense for dealing with someone that you can't see. Odds are a mundane wouldn't think of dual-natured creatures, watcher spirits, or anything like that unless they had a background in it, but those aren't the solutions we're proposing. |
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Dec 3 2004, 09:09 AM
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#121
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
So you've dumped a minimum of 45 points of Karma - enough to raise a high-end skill two or three points - into initiation, some unknown amount into learning new spells, but somehow it's the mundanes that get screwed because they have to spread their Karma around?
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Dec 3 2004, 09:15 AM
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#122
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
He probably never seen what a mundane can do with 100 karma. By the way, I've got a mundane PC in my gaming group that didn't break a sweat for SOTF, doesn't it mean that Magic is weak?
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Dec 3 2004, 09:17 AM
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#123
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 301 Joined: 25-August 04 From: Tampa, FL Member No.: 6,602 |
Yes Fortune, thank god you can read between the lines and see where I meant to put: this is my only source of data. I cleverly disguised it in previous posts where I mentioned that I both play and GM at cons where I have an oppertunity to see dozens of new characters each session. That may have fooled other posters, but your ability to ignore prior information and make assumptions from one post has seen you to the truth. Congrats. |
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Dec 3 2004, 09:34 AM
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#124
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 29-October 04 Member No.: 6,793 |
Toturi, did I read that right a little way's back? You make your Awakened characters roll for magic loss for Stun damage? Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick! Your reality is a harsh mystress.
"I cast improved reflexes 3." "Sure you wanna do that? You're already lightly stunned." "Gotta go gotta go." "Roll. Ok, now for drain. Ugh, nasty roll. You take deadly stun and pass out." "I'm toast." "That's nothing. Roll for magic loss, bitch!" Harsh. |
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Dec 3 2004, 09:53 AM
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#125
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 8-October 04 Member No.: 6,736 |
Do you make people roll for limb loss on deadly stun as well? It would suck to get so drunk that your leg fell off.
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