shovels, pole arm, edged weapon, or club |
shovels, pole arm, edged weapon, or club |
Dec 7 2004, 03:41 PM
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#1
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 236 Joined: 14-March 04 From: Cal Poly: SLO Member No.: 6,155 |
Just a quick question one of my players had. For general combat, including slashing and stabing, would a shovel count as a polearm, club or an edged weapon? He's looking for one at 4-5 feet, which is about the same as a combat axe (edged weapon, reach 2), or spear (polearm, reach 2).
Damage code was looking at (str-1)S |
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Dec 7 2004, 03:48 PM
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#2
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Target Group: Members Posts: 48 Joined: 12-January 04 Member No.: 5,973 |
I would say polearm. A shovel would be an unwieldy spear with no balance and an oversized head...and if it's actually used to dig...no real cutting edge. I don't see it as a practical weapon for everyday use. Maybe a military e-tool...one of those folding shovels...it would be a little better suited for combat, but you'd lose the reach 2. If I were to assign a damage code for a shovel it would be (STR)M. Jumt my opinions on the matter.
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Dec 7 2004, 04:21 PM
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#3
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Polearm if they were trying to slash someone with it (effectively using it as an axe or spear) or Club if they were just swinging wildly. I'd place the former at (STR-1)M Physical, the latter at (STR-1)M Stun since neither are really designed to take advantage of your full Strength in that fashion. Both would be Reach 1.
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Dec 7 2004, 04:54 PM
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#4
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That's pretty much what I'd do myself.
~J |
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Dec 7 2004, 05:20 PM
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#5
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
One of those handy-dandy folding military ones wouldn't get the bonus Reach though, in my opinion.
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Dec 7 2004, 05:23 PM
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#6
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
Depends whether he's slashing, swinging, or stabbing.
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Dec 7 2004, 05:35 PM
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#7
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
"I am the Shoveler. God's given me a gift. I shovel well. I shovel very well."
:grinbig: -karma |
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Dec 7 2004, 05:39 PM
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#8
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Here's a great sr use shovel. Clicky
For stats: (STR+1)L (balanced for throwing, use knife ranges) Survival check for camp utility holes SUT for Combat application (foxholes, grenade holes, etc.) 45 :nuyen: |
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Dec 7 2004, 05:44 PM
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#9
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
+ Dikote™ :D |
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Dec 7 2004, 05:54 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 313 |
Dikoted Titanium snow shovel... ah the memories :smokin:
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Dec 7 2004, 05:55 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
Don't forget to apply fineblade technology then look out world
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Dec 7 2004, 06:52 PM
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#12
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
bah, fineblade and dikote incompatible
besides you want the heft of metal in a shovel that is more than for entrenching |
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Dec 7 2004, 06:58 PM
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#13
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I created stats for an Entrenching Tool a while back when I was playing a Spetsnaz character. It used its own unique skill (defaultable to Polearms and Clubs), did (STR)M physical damage, and had a Reach of 1 (since it was designed to be as much a last-resort weapon as a tool, so wasn't as awkward as using a real shovel). Maneuvers learned with Sambo could be learned for use with the Entrenching Tool skill, too.
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Dec 7 2004, 07:00 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Don't forget, e-tools also have one edge for chopping (though its really too light for anything but small trees and brush).
For actual shovels, I'd be inclined to give them an overall +1 modifier in combat, to reflect they weren't designed with the martial artist in mind. I wouldn't give that to e-tools, but less face it, e-tools are pretty crappy shovels. |
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Dec 7 2004, 07:01 PM
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#15
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I challenge you to find a 3rd edition statement that the two are incompatible.
~J |
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Dec 7 2004, 07:01 PM
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#16
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
There isn't one. Ditto for monomolecular weapons, including Monofilament Whips and Mono-Swords.
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Dec 7 2004, 07:06 PM
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#17
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
To be fair, GM common sense would probably catch all (or at least most) of those; on the other hand, once we start talking about Fineblade shovels...
~J |
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Dec 7 2004, 07:50 PM
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#18
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
The new Ares Monoshovel, for those times when there's just too many roots in the area you want to dig. Available in all sizes, and a variety of colors.
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Dec 7 2004, 09:11 PM
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#19
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
rofl
I can see Tim Allen with something like that, after failing to locate underground wires. Not even resistance to the push for warning... zzzzzzzzzzzzzot! |
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Dec 7 2004, 09:31 PM
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#20
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Ares Exec: What do you mean manufacturing defect?!
Ares Manager: The monoedge on the shovel goes all the way around? Exec: And......??? Manager : People sometimes use their feet to provide more force when digging in hard ground... Exec: How much will this cost? Manager: It will cost 20 million nuyen to halt production and redisign the shovels, It will cost 5 million to print a warrion on all of the shovels, or it will cost 200 million to settle the resulting lawsuits. Exec: And how much do we stand to make on Cyberfoot sales? Manager: ....... The first shipment of shovels will leave tomorrow morning. |
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Dec 7 2004, 10:01 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 424 Joined: 11-May 02 From: Marauding the mighty North Saskatchewan Member No.: 2,720 |
Specifics, people, specifics!
I mean It really depends on what kind of shovel you're talking here. Is it a scoop shovel or a spade? Fortuantely you got an expert handy. Now if we're talking a scoop shovel we're looking definitely at a club. If you're going to use it in combat the best way is generally a swing to hit someone with the heel of the scoop - preferably you're using a metal type, a plastic one just simply doesn't have the weight to do serious damage. The lighter metal ones will also get a good face imprint of your target if used properly. Now a spade, on the other hand, could be treated more like a spear, its edges usually aren't sharp enough to use as a slashing pole arm, but better as a thrusting one using the point of the spade. It could also be thrown if one were so inclined but due to its heavier weight and poor aerodynamics it would have limited range. Now getting into more specialized shovels... A track shovel makes an excellent short two handed thrusting point, much like a zulu's shortspear, but with the potential to make two handed slashing attacks but deinitely no reach bonuses, a snow scraper shovel would make an incredibly poor weapon due to the awkward shape of its head and position of the blade - most having largely plastic construction make it ill suited to the rigors of combat. Lastly the lowly garden trowel can function much like a dagered thrusting point or main-gauche. Personally I believe every good shadowrunner should carry at least one shovel - the shovel is after all teh brother to the gun - people in combat quickly realize that it is better to dig a hole and hide rather than defend yourself with your gun. ;) |
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Dec 7 2004, 11:32 PM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I would just call it a club. Pole arms are much longer than a typical shovel, and if edged weapons normally refers to katanas and combat knives then there's no reason to call a shovel Edged Weapons, even if you use the blade.
Most improvised weapons you can think of would primarily be clubs. |
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Dec 7 2004, 11:58 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Depending on the type of shovel, I could see any of Pole Arms, Edged, or Clubs being appropriate. Anything more than about five feet long will fall under Pole Arms, and the shorter ones will be Edged or Clubs. The distinction between "Edged Weapons" and "Clubs" is pretty arbitrary, anyway, and has basically nothing to do with actual differences in weapon handling.
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Dec 8 2004, 12:21 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 172 Joined: 16-September 04 From: UK Member No.: 6,671 |
I agree that clubs would be more appropiate. Even if it was sharpened as the wieghting is nothing like a bladed weapon, and alot of maces had sharp 'bits' and they are technichally clubs.
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Dec 8 2004, 12:32 AM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Thats why my group switched the skills around to Edged Weapons (all blades), Hafted Weapons (Clubs, Axes, those weird obsidian lined clubs the Azzies use), Polearms (staves, spears and, uh, polearms), and Whips/Flails. We just got tired of trying to justify why a rapier and a fireman's ax used the same skill.
By our house rule, the two handed shovel would be a Polearm and the short handled shovel would be Hafted Weapons. I'd still be inclined to give them a blanket +1 to reflect that they aren't designed for combat (still excepting the e-tool, which was designed as a last ditch weapon. No pun... yeesh.) |
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