Just a quick question one of my players had. For general combat, including slashing and stabing, would a shovel count as a polearm, club or an edged weapon? He's looking for one at 4-5 feet, which is about the same as a combat axe (edged weapon, reach 2), or spear (polearm, reach 2).

Damage code was looking at (str-1)S

I would say polearm. A shovel would be an unwieldy spear with no balance and an oversized head...and if it's actually used to dig...no real cutting edge. I don't see it as a practical weapon for everyday use. Maybe a military e-tool...one of those folding shovels...it would be a little better suited for combat, but you'd lose the reach 2. If I were to assign a damage code for a shovel it would be (STR)M. Jumt my opinions on the matter.

Polearm if they were trying to slash someone with it (effectively using it as an axe or spear) or Club if they were just swinging wildly. I'd place the former at (STR-1)M Physical, the latter at (STR-1)M Stun since neither are really designed to take advantage of your full Strength in that fashion. Both would be Reach 1.

That's pretty much what I'd do myself.

~J

One of those handy-dandy folding military ones wouldn't get the bonus Reach though, in my opinion.

Depends whether he's slashing, swinging, or stabbing.

"I am the Shoveler. God's given me a gift. I shovel well. I shovel very well."




-karma

Here's a great sr use shovel. Clicky

For stats:
(STR+1)L (balanced for throwing, use knife ranges)
Survival check for camp utility holes
SUT for Combat application (foxholes, grenade holes, etc.)
45

Dikoted Titanium snow shovel... ah the memories

Don't forget to apply fineblade technology then look out world

bah, fineblade and dikote incompatible
besides you want the heft of metal in a shovel that is more than for entrenching

I created stats for an Entrenching Tool a while back when I was playing a Spetsnaz character. It used its own unique skill (defaultable to Polearms and Clubs), did (STR)M physical damage, and had a Reach of 1 (since it was designed to be as much a last-resort weapon as a tool, so wasn't as awkward as using a real shovel). Maneuvers learned with Sambo could be learned for use with the Entrenching Tool skill, too.

Don't forget, e-tools also have one edge for chopping (though its really too light for anything but small trees and brush).

For actual shovels, I'd be inclined to give them an overall +1 modifier in combat, to reflect they weren't designed with the martial artist in mind. I wouldn't give that to e-tools, but less face it, e-tools are pretty crappy shovels.

I challenge you to find a 3rd edition statement that the two are incompatible.

~J

There isn't one. Ditto for monomolecular weapons, including Monofilament Whips and Mono-Swords.

To be fair, GM common sense would probably catch all (or at least most) of those; on the other hand, once we start talking about Fineblade shovels...

~J

The new Ares Monoshovel, for those times when there's just too many roots in the area you want to dig. Available in all sizes, and a variety of colors.

rofl

I can see Tim Allen with something like that, after failing to locate underground wires. Not even resistance to the push for warning... zzzzzzzzzzzzzot!

Ares Exec: What do you mean manufacturing defect?!

Ares Manager: The monoedge on the shovel goes all the way around?

Exec: And......???

Manager : People sometimes use their feet to provide more force when digging in hard ground...

Exec: How much will this cost?

Manager: It will cost 20 million nuyen to halt production and redisign the shovels, It will cost 5 million to print a warrion on all of the shovels, or it will cost 200 million to settle the resulting lawsuits.

Exec: And how much do we stand to make on Cyberfoot sales?

Manager: ....... The first shipment of shovels will leave tomorrow morning.

Specifics, people, specifics!

I mean It really depends on what kind of shovel you're talking here. Is it a scoop shovel or a spade? Fortuantely you got an expert handy. Now if we're talking a scoop shovel we're looking definitely at a club. If you're going to use it in combat the best way is generally a swing to hit someone with the heel of the scoop - preferably you're using a metal type, a plastic one just simply doesn't have the weight to do serious damage. The lighter metal ones will also get a good face imprint of your target if used properly. Now a spade, on the other hand, could be treated more like a spear, its edges usually aren't sharp enough to use as a slashing pole arm, but better as a thrusting one using the point of the spade. It could also be thrown if one were so inclined but due to its heavier weight and poor aerodynamics it would have limited range. Now getting into more specialized shovels... A track shovel makes an excellent short two handed thrusting point, much like a zulu's shortspear, but with the potential to make two handed slashing attacks but deinitely no reach bonuses, a snow scraper shovel would make an incredibly poor weapon due to the awkward shape of its head and position of the blade - most having largely plastic construction make it ill suited to the rigors of combat. Lastly the lowly garden trowel can function much like a dagered thrusting point or main-gauche.

Personally I believe every good shadowrunner should carry at least one shovel - the shovel is after all teh brother to the gun - people in combat quickly realize that it is better to dig a hole and hide rather than defend yourself with your gun.

I would just call it a club. Pole arms are much longer than a typical shovel, and if edged weapons normally refers to katanas and combat knives then there's no reason to call a shovel Edged Weapons, even if you use the blade.


Most improvised weapons you can think of would primarily be clubs.

Depending on the type of shovel, I could see any of Pole Arms, Edged, or Clubs being appropriate. Anything more than about five feet long will fall under Pole Arms, and the shorter ones will be Edged or Clubs. The distinction between "Edged Weapons" and "Clubs" is pretty arbitrary, anyway, and has basically nothing to do with actual differences in weapon handling.

I agree that clubs would be more appropiate. Even if it was sharpened as the wieghting is nothing like a bladed weapon, and alot of maces had sharp 'bits' and they are technichally clubs.

Mercer thats a good point, may talk to my group about changing our rules along those lines.

I know

Heres what Ive surgested to my group:

I really like the idea of replacing 'Edged Weapons' and 'Clubs' with say a 'Swords' 'Hafted Weapons' and even 'Knives' as I consider the skill to use them effectively should be different to swords. Plus when I think about Throwing Weapons I wish it was split between 'blunt' weapons like grenades and rocks, and weapons like throwing daggers and shurikan as I see those too as very different skills. So prehaps incorperate 'sharp' throwing weapons into the 'knives' skill, as in any film/tv Ive seen, people that are good in a knife fight tend to be good at throwing them too. The one thing that doesnt fit is throwing axes and boomerangs, but who cares?

So basically:

Swords: Covers all swords from about 18" to 4'
Hafted Weapons: Clubs, Axes, Maces and Shovels
Polarms: Unchanged
Short Blades: Knives, daggers and sharp throwing things.
Lobbed Attacks: Grenades, stones, metahumans etc.

I personally divide melee weapons into Knives (knives, sai, screwdrivers, trowels, etc.), Single-Hand Weapons (broadswords, hand axes, maces, nightsticks, Maglites, etc.), Greatweapons (claymores, pole arms, quarterstaves, mauls, etc.), and some assorted skills for odd weapons that don't handle like most others (morning stars, whips, rapiers, etc.). In addition, I have a category of hand-and-a-half weapons (katanas, combat axes, baseball bats, and so on) that have no specific related skill, but can be wielded without penalty either one-handed with Single-Hand or two-handed with Greatweapons (in which case, the bonus Power for two-handed use applies).

Most smaller shovels would be hand-and-a-half weapons, while the larger ones would be Greatweapons only.

Under the canon rules, though... while shovels don't handle like katanas or switchblades, they handle enough like axes to make Edged entirely appropriate for any shovel that's got an edge worth striking with (which is quite a lot of them, really), and is not large enough to be a Pole Arm.