Is it just me or are Adepts still the weakest link Options

[Cynic project]

I have looked into the new power for adept,and I have the basic book,magic the shadows,and the new SOTA. But I see that for the most part adepts are masters of being just slightly better at one thing,in exchange for being worse at a whole lot of other things.

Yes, the Stealth,sense,gun,or Hand to Hand Adept is better than you street sam. But For the most part the street sams,can be just about as good as all the adepts in all those fields, at the same time. Adept powers just cost to much.

[Synner]

For the most part it's just you. Adepts are indeed better specialists. However, in the (very) long run karma expenditure on Initiation and new powers pays off in a big way and adepts can expand their basic profile significantly, as compared to most sams (I've seen exceptions and the amount of money floating around in certain campaigns can skew things).

[Cynic project]

Well, I have yet to see an adept that is as good as a street sam or mage that wasn't basically a one(maybe two)trick pony. So care to prove me wrong?

[Garland]

I think most people will tell you the Adept has no limits on progression, where eventually the Sam runs up against the brick wall of Essence limits.

[Synner]

What would you like a starting character or a 100 karma one? Just gimme a comparable sam to build against.

[Cynic project]

Okay how about starting ,and 100 points. Use the same builds.

[Mercer]

To go back to something I've said for a long time, you can be a one trick pony as long as its a good trick.

Personally, I think the discussions on what's the "best" type of character to be largely pointless. I'll take an intelligently made character over a badly made one, and I'd back an intelligently played character against all the number crunching in the world. Every character has situations that he is better in and situations he's worse in.

[mfb]

eh. i love adepts, but i have to say that it's more difficult to optimize them than it is sams. you can't really make an adept as versatile as you can a sam. however, i wouldn't say at all that they're weak.

[Cynic project]

[Cynic project]

[Mercer]

I'll say they come out different, but I can't say better or worse.

Sams can pack in the senseware, but adepts get the kickass "natural" vision modifiers. Sams tend to build up better stats, Phys Ads tend to have higher skills. Phys Ads can start with Inc Reflexes 3 for Priority B, Sams would have to go Priority A to get the same bonus to Reaction and Initiative. (This to me is the biggest change to the Phys Ad in 3ed, he tends to come off equal to a starting sam in regards to initiative, as opposed to SR2 when he was the slow poke).

Still, I think the strength of the character comes from how its player rather than the numbers on the sheet.

[Cynic project]

[vagranttimelord]

Because I'm lazy I didn't read all of these posts... but I will state this. Magician way Adepts CAN be the most powerful Mages in the game...it will just take them the longest to do so... If you have read the new SOTA you will see why, they have access to ALL Metamagics and Foci.

But if you are looking at straight adept you will have to look at all of the new metamagics specifically for them... A lot of them require centering as a prerequisite which just shows how unbalancing they can get if they are Initiate 5 or higher....

And think of this... take an Adept... make him a sword fighter with a natural skill of say...6-8, a professional, give him Attunement metamagic and a weapon focus. That means he is rolling 6-8 dice for the skill plus the force of the focus all at -1 to the target number. Basically, he walks up to you with a sword and you fall down before you realize he swung....

Adepts are always worth their cred as characters.

[mfb]

trust me, you can make an adepts whose numbers will blow a lot of other characters out of the water, and they don't necessarily have to be a one-trick pony to do so. sure, they won't be totally badass at everything--they'll only be okay at most things.

[Rev]

Adepts can go to the airport.

[Eyeless Blond]

[akarenti]

[ES_Riddle]

[kevyn668]

[Wounded Ronin]

I strongly prefer adepts because I'm lazy at chargen. For sammies I would wanna look in 2 or 3 sourcebooks. For physads I can make a decent one with just SR3.

[kevyn668]

Heh, I'll admit that I like adepts because I don't have to figure how to "best" spend all the damn :nuyen:

Then again, that's why my sams are pretty simplistic. [why don't we have a "lazy smiley"?]

edit: Nevermind. :sleepy: (close enough)

[sidartha]

I've been playing 3rd Ed long enough to have seen about ten different builds of an Adept including a few of my own, self promotion aside here is my impression of Adapts.
A pure street sam can out of the box, using cannon build points rules, rock the world of another out-of-the-box Adapt in multiple situations. Note multiple.
A pure adapt can rock the world of that same sammie in only one or two situations.
However, in order to improve his base attributes(Quickness, Body, Strength, Initive) a sam must earn enough net profit and have the appropriate contacts and the down time to have Beta grade cyber installed. not an easy thing to do in my games(YMMV). All the Adapt has to do in order to improve those same attributes is spend karma and leaves him/her free to buy other neat toys like Runthenium or commission a completely broken assault rifle from CC's rules or perhaps a FAKE ID.
As I see it the advantage of a Street Sam is to have that 'So familiar with Death he's on my speed-dial' killing power. While the advantage of an Adapt is to be able to leap over the 15 foot wall, not set of the pressure sensors on the other side, gun down two Tir Ghosts and then bitch slap the patrolling Elemental into vapor type of craziness.
All that aside the best Adapts AND Street Sams have been half-breeds. Imagine the posabilitys of a physical mage with Retinal Duplication and the palm print altering nanites and Physical Mask....Eh?Eh?
Anybody?
Can I get a "Hell Yea"?
Please?
........... :(

[Xavroc]

It's all situational and all depends how you wanna kill things. For the guy who wants to kill stuff h2h I'd go 'dept.
Reason 1: I can get more dice then you. The ability to bond to Weapon Foci is the factor.
Reason 2: I can ignore reach modifers with distant strike. MITS
Reason 3: I can kill you with a weapon I was born with. SR3

For the monkey in ranged combat.
Reason 1: I can get more dice then you. Skill increased with dept power. SR3 or MITS(i forgot which)
Reason 2: I can get an achored armor focus bonded to me. Eat Barrier loser.
Reason 3: I getr more dice then you. Eat it. More dice=Likeliness to Hit increased

Sneaky-Sneaky killer sniper guy killers:
Well they win, but only if the Dept sixth sense can't warn him....if he took the power.

(Edit) Oh yeah I forgot my groups favorites: Shapeshifter/Adepts

All these thing were situational but so is building a samurai. Some power can be used for espionage. But always remember that when a dept is being healed by magic TNs are easier then a sams. And magic healing is the way to go because it's faster and don't cost as much money. (cheesey note: don't heal all the boxes in one go, shoot the char with a L manabolt and let him take a light wound and start again.) Also the adept can take powers that increase stats and give extra init dice. Built right you can mix cyber and dept powers and come up with a super-beef cake.

My opinion riggers are the way to go. Hey Combat monkeys take 18LN damage from my howitzer from 1km away.

[Dr. Black]

I'll fall back on a character I've been running.

CyberAdept.

She is no one trick pony. Combination of cyberware, bioware and Physad abilities. Geasa to hang on to lost magic and get a discount. She has a magic attribute of 1 at chargen. Which will go up as she initiates. She is an excellent all around character. Over 80 chipped skills at 3 + CED. She is a Face (kinesics3), Sammy(Increased reflexes2), Stealthy (Improved ability stealth4), Breaking and entering using those chipped skills, lots of senses, suprathyroid, EA, Muscle augmentation and toner, cybereyes/ears, bone lacing, etc etc. 1 Million NY to spend at chargen so she has alot of toys. Starts with 12 contacts. The list goes on and on.

I see so many posts about adepts being 1 trick ponies, not having enough abilities, risking magic loss. Thats just BS. Use GEASA. They are in the book for a reason. Use voluntary Geasa on adept powers to get a 25% discount on the cost of the power. Turn 6 power points into 8 power points. Get cyber/bio at least for the special benefits you cannot get with Physad powers (smartlink, chipped skills, datajack, EA etc)

Do you realize that the less actual magic attribute you have, the lower your chances of suffering magic loss. An awakened with magic 6 has a 15 in 36 chance of suffering magic loss, whereas a magic 2 character has only a 1 in 36 chance of loosing magic.

So I say use up some of that magic attribute with beneficial items before you have to roll for magic loss and waste geasa.

DB

[Eyeless Blond]

Biggest problems with Geasea:

1) Other than Talisman and perhaps Gesture, nearly every Geas can and *will* have many possible, even likely, situations where they will force you into a bad situation. Even that dumb fasting geas can get you often enough, particularly if you're ambushed right after a meal. :D Add to this that most sane GMs won't ever let you take more than one of the same (read: Talisman) Geas, and you're in for lots of awkward situations.
2) Geasea taken for cost are unremovable; you're stuck with 'em forever. Removing your other Geasea costs you the best parts of an initiation, earning nothing extra for you but a jump in Grade.
3) You can only have (Willpower) of them. Normally mages never run anywhere near this limit, but for adepts who are constantly double-geasing everything they have--once for cost, once for Magic loss--will run into this limit rather quickly.
4) (EDIT: this is sorta a house rule, but one majorly hinted at and supported by the rules) If I caught one of my players trying to "cheat" their way around a Geas--things like making your underwear a Talisman, claiming that blinking is a Gesture, or that his Domain is "wherever I'm standing at the time,"--then I'd slowly begin to hint that his character is beginning to lose the focus that the Geas used to give him, and that he needed to rededicate himself to it, possibly making it more of a conscious effort or sacrifice. If he didn't get the hint and start shaping up, I'd have the Geas break on him in certain important times, telling him that his weakening Geas is just not providing the conscious control he needs to access his power. If that didn't work I'd simply invoke the rule that his character is consciously choosing to not honor his geasea, and he loses them all, starting on the road to burnout (last paragraph p. 33 MitS).

So yeah, Geasea are a choice. But they're not anything to be taken up lightly; much like the decision to lose Essence in the first place, there is a definite trade-off involved here.