Stun Weapons, Real Shock value? Options

[Deamon_Knight]

SR3 p. 124 has a section on shock weapons, suggesting that, in addition to filling Stun Boxes on the Stun condition monitor, causes the target to be stunned (+2 to all target #s) for a number of combat turns equal to the power of the attack, minus 1/2 impact armor and the success of an additional Body or Willpower (4) test.

So, say BlackJack, the Elven Ninja/Combat decker sneaks up on an unsuspecting corp goon, and using a shock hand implant goes all Vulcan Neck Pinch on him. We will assume surprise and a hit (Questions on staging later) for 8S damage.

Corp goon rolls 4 body dice to resist and generates a 3,1,5,6; because he has 4 impact armor, reducing the power of the attack to 6 (8-2, one half impact armor = 6), and generating 1 success, no staging.

Corp Goon fills in 6 stun boxes (1 Serious wound), and then rolls his unusual Willpower of 5 against a target of 4 to resist the Stunning effect. His results are 2,2,5,5,3. 2 Success, and again, minus 1/2 impact for another 2 for a total of 4 from the number of Combat turns he experiences the stunning effect.

Now does he subtract that 4 from the original power of 8 for a total of 4 combat turns stunned, or the staged down power of 6 for 2 combat turns stunned?

During that Stunned period, having suffered no other wounds, he would be at +5 to all TNs? (+3 from the serious Stun wound, and +2 from the additional stunning effect)

Does the TN penalties of the stun wound apply to the stunning resistance check?

Could BlackJack, having an cyber weapon combat 4, and achieved 2 successes staged the damage from the shock up to 8D, or with 4 successes, up to 9D?

Would a staging up to 9 deadly result in a base 9 combat turns under the stunning effect? (Assume corp goon staged the damage down from deadly)

Is there a roll for knockdown in here somewhere, and would the base TNs (4) be effected by all the Tn penalties accrued?

Thanks in advance!

(Man this system can get a bit complex!)

[ES_Riddle]

The goon is looking at 4 turns of stunning (8-2 for armor, 2 for successes).

On the topic of staging I would say that in this situation the shock damage can be staged up. If he had slugged the guard in the head for his unarmed damage and shock damage, I'd say that one or the other can be staged, or that net successes have to be divided between them to determine staging or something like that. I don't really have a rule to cite on this, it just seems like it keeps from boning those who want to use the shock on its own without overpowering those who want to use it in conjunction with breaking people's noses.

[The White Dwarf]

The stun part is correct as above.

As for staging, the Shock Glove does a standard unarmed damage code at its reduced strength (str-1 if memory serves) in addition to the Shock part. The Unarmed (or Cyber Implant) test applies to this non-shock portion.

In the scenario above, were I GMing I would rule no unarmed attack was made; the target was simply touched. The Shock portion would be delt, using only body to resist (no skill or combat pool). Then again, were I GMing the players would undoubtedly choose to employ an unarmed test using a silently mouthed "Judo-Chop" from behind in order to be *sure* they knocked the goon unconcious. Despite the TN penalties, an 8S Stun with no dice behind it can, at worst, do 6 boxes =)

[Mercer]

I believe (but am not sure) that the shock glove requires the impact of a punch or judo-chop to discharge, if for no other reason than to keep Joe Q. Shadowrunner from taking himself out everytime he picks he nose or scratches his ass. Fair warning to the guy trying to kill the mosquito on his arm.

This is a minor point and peripheral to the original question, but I thought I'd bring it up.

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Zen Shooter01]

Any way you look at it, anyone not carrying some kind of stun weapon is a dim bulb. What's a stun baton do? 6S stun, plus special zap effects, with +1 reach?

[Deamon_Knight]

Grinder, why don't you think Stun Damage should be staged?

[Fortune]

He isn't refering to all Stun Damage ... just the Shock Glove/Stun Baton Stun damage.

I would think his premise for this is ... why would hitting someone harder make the electrical discharge involved more damaging?

[Arethusa]

Which unfortunately ignores the fairly simple fact that while hit placement with an electrical weapon may matter differently than it does with, say, a club, it still makes a difference.

[Zen Shooter01]

I think Arethusa's right. Getting zapped in the finger and getting zapped in the face are two different things.

[Mercer]

I think it comes from the fact that, for the shock glove anyway, people don't want to stage both damages; the punch and the shock. Since the shock is more-or-less the secondary effect, most people stage the punch and tag the shock to it. Otherwise it seems like it would require two rolls, one for how good a punch it was and one to see how good a shock it was. Staging up two damage resistance rolls from one set of successes makes the shock glove a little too game-breakingly effective for my money. I could see letting the player choose which effect he was going for (shock or punch) and then stage that accordingly, though.

[Arethusa]

[Edward]

because placement maters differently for shock and punch effects my suggestion would be to stage whichever the attacker wants. You get 5 net successes, take your pick you can ad 2 points of power, do you want to put them all on the impact, all on the shock or split them up. Or maybe you should decide one or the other before the roll. Your better or putting them all in one place anyway (although usually the shock damage if I have the maths correct)

Edward

[RedmondLarry]

I know that a target hit by a successful attack with Shock Gloves has to resist both the punch damage (STR-1)M Stun, as well as the electric shock 7S Stun. Does anyone believe this is true with Stun Batons, that the target has to resist the physical attack as well as the electric attack?

The traditional Stun Baton (as used in Die Hard 2) has the prongs on the tip. I don't see that doing much 'club' damage.

Some references:

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Arethusa]

The only difference between a called shot staging up damage once and two successes staging up damage once is that the player intended for the first and the second was incidental. There is no other difference. There is no magic difference between calling a shot and not calling a shot. It's just a more intentional way of going about it, and mechanically, a much dumber one.

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Tarantula]

[Fermun]

the group of runners i play with are all stun-only. we havent killed anyone yet. it makes it much more difficult to play, but its pretty interesting. we all use gel rounds and all of us have melee stun weapons too. we all carry handcuffs to restrain people after combat, wouldnt want them becoming conscious and sounding an alarm.

the way we do stun gloves are to scale up the damage from the hit, but not the one from the electrical discharge.

[Arethusa]

[GrinderTheTroll]

Even choosing one (my oops), it can still serve a purpose as I mentioned, shooting at a weak-point (aka armor bypass) could have large benefits even at a +4 TN.

Don't use it if you don't like it.

[Arethusa]

Like I said, bypassing armor is really all it's good for. +1 DL is stupidly worthless.

[Kanada Ten]

[RedmondLarry]

I'm surprised at the above characterization of things I do in Shadowrun as being stupid or dumb.

When my sniper shaman uses a Called shot and aim-aim-aim before pulling the trigger, she has taken the TN from 2 to 2 by doing the called shot (Smarlink 2), or from 2 to 3 when using regular Smartlink.

When my Face (no Smartlink) chooses to make a called shot against the Ork Ganger who is beating him with a club, he takes the TN from 6 to 10 and expects to get only half as many successes, but he may be willing to use a Karma Pool to save his hide.

Calling it a damned bad idea to put into the game just because its not always numerically useful is a bit harsh on the Shadowrun Designers.

Calling +1 DL stupidly worthless has the assumption that everyone wears strong armor. For many years we didn't have the option to bypass armor, and many still don't play with that rule.

(I'm not angry or flaming. This is my usual pre-Christmas depression.)

[Deamon_Knight]

So, what if you have the shock hand Cyberware? it that also (Str-1) Stun AND 8S Stun?

A seperate note, anyone know if Cyberarms add to HTH power like bone lacing?