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> FanPro Commando Program, Comments about FanPro's Demo Team
Clutch9800
post Dec 22 2004, 04:56 PM
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Hi,

It has recently been brought to my attention that the Commando Program has a bad "rep" in the Shadowrun Community.

The reasons for said poor rep (as expressed to me) were a poorly worded application procedure, and a lack of communication.

That said, I'd like to open a discussion to whomever may be interested on everything Commando.

If you have a question, comment, gripe, or atta-boy, please post it here and I'll address it.

Thanks,

Scott Taylor
FanPro LLC

P.S. If you'd like to take it to e-mail I can be reached at clutch9800@ec.rr.com
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CoalHeart
post Dec 22 2004, 05:01 PM
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FanPro Commando?

I seem to live under a rock and never heard of this.
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Fortune
post Dec 22 2004, 05:04 PM
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My main problem with the program (and the reason I haven't joined) is the requirement that every Commando must write a cohesive adventure to be submitted before his application is considered. While I have no problem running established adventures, and even creating my own, when it comes to actually putting them down in any kind of organized format I sadly lack the writing skills (or at least the confidence in the skills I have) required.

I don't think it is necessary to be an accomplished author in order to run pre-made games and demonstrate the Shadowrun system to newcomers. I have been doing this very thing for 15 years.
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BitBasher
post Dec 22 2004, 06:23 PM
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My problem with it is that in a nutshell prewriting a plot is a plan for destruction. Players can and will screw up your plot, then to stick to it you need to railroad them. That's bad gaming. Everythign I do in a game is freeform. I create a worls that the characters live in. It reacts to them, they react to it. Therefore I'm pretty well excluded.
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bitrunner
post Dec 22 2004, 06:27 PM
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the writing requirement does a couple of things...

first, it weeds out those that aren't really committed to the program. if you aren't willing to take the time to write up an adventure, then how can the program depend on you to put time into other ventures...

second, it tests a couple of things - your overall game knowledge of both the universe/feel and the mechanics; your ability to come up with a balanced encounter (ie you aren't having archetype characters out of the basic book trying to kill Lofwyr); your ability to organize your thoughts in something that others can make sense out of (for example, the adventure format that is used in published SR adventures).

Clutch is not looking for a Harlequin's Back adventure, or even one that has perfect grammar (although you should at least run it through a basic spell checker!). It should be something that could feasibly be run during a couple of hours at a game store or convention demo. If you already do this - what are you using?? if you wrote something up, with fleshed out, balanced NPCs, encounters, etc, then you could submit it...

You can certainly look at the ones that are being used in the Shadowrun Missions campaign - they are good examples to take a look at...

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BitBasher
post Dec 22 2004, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE
first, it weeds out those that aren't really committed to the program. if you aren't willing to take the time to write up an adventure, then how can the program depend on you to put time into other ventures...
Because some people don't ever write anything down. Ever. A plan is just a list of things that just don't happen. Writing things down is the opposite of the way I think a game should be run.

I see this as a no win situation. It's a program that asks for volunteers to spread the word about SR, which is cool. It then asks these volunteers to do far more work than they would normally do for a game to earn the right to donate their time to an official program. Kind of antithetical to the ideals of a volunteer program if you ask me.

But, on the other side of the coin there really needs to be some quality control over the content to make sure that new people introduced dont get a fractured or just plain bad game.

It's kind of a catch-22 IMHO. I don't have a good soloution. This crops up in any volunteer program I've been involved with. I do see your point, and I don;t disagree with it. I do think the project is a good idea on paper.

That being said I try to spread the SR love regardless of my belonging to any program. I've converted a number of folks.

[edit]In fact, the only run I have ever written down was an after the fact thing, and I guess it turned out pretty well, because it periodically pops back up and gets reposted when talking about horror threads. It was the "little girl run
", but it wasn't structured like a normal shadowrun.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Dec 22 2004, 07:03 PM
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I've honestly never heard of the Commando program, but I tend to not write things down either. Maybe an occasional complex Matrix system or draw out a building and other things that require the detail to be available, but the ideas are in my head and for me something gets lost in the translation to paper.

Sounds like a neat idea though.
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the_dunner
post Dec 22 2004, 07:21 PM
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So, for those people posting that they don't know anything at all about the Commando program, it's probably worth a glance at the website here. There's information on the program there, a list of program members, and a listing of scheduled events.

As far as writing up an event goes. Like bitrunner said, it's a test of dedication. At the same time, it's a pretty easy test. Anybody that regularly posts on these forums is writing more on a daily basis than they'd need to do to pump out such an adventure. (Think about it. All that's required is a quick demo scenario, something that can be run quickly for new players. Concise writing can fit that into three or four pages.) Sure, it'd rock if somebody wanted to write up a Shadowrun:Missions adventure for their Commando entry, but that's more than the application indicates is needed.

I don't want to get into an extensive adventure design discussion, but I've been GMing for more than 25 years. (God I'm old.) I spent a great deal of that time always running things free-form. Now, I go into sessions with an outline. (1/2 to a full page) I've found that it's a lot easier to hit key subplots (even as incidental encounters) if I've got an outline. With an outline in hand, it's really not a big deal to expand that out into a scenario.

Finally, calling the Commando program a volunteer program is a bit of a misnomer. They are compensated with Fanpro product. Yes, members are donating their time and efforts to promote Fanpro products. However, they do get more back than just a "Thank you."
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Fortune
post Dec 22 2004, 07:40 PM
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Give me an exam on Shadowrun. I guarantee I'll ace it!

I've been GMing role-playing games of all kinds since the mid-seventies. Like BitBasher though, I rarely flesh out my ideas beforehand any more than necessary, prefering instead to react to what the characters are actually doing in the game as opposed to railroading them through my personal novel.

Even if that weren't the case, there are more than enough pre-made scenarios out there that are perfectly adequate for demonstrating Shadowrun to newcomers. The need to demonstrate one's writing or creative skills in order to run one of those is what I question.
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Jrayjoker
post Dec 22 2004, 09:16 PM
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I am strongly considering this, but I have 3 kids all under 4 years and little free time. The biggest drawback is the 6 events a year.
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bitrunner
post Dec 22 2004, 09:22 PM
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as i mentioned...you're not being graded on your writing skills or creativity...you don't have to have a degree in Creative Writing to do this...

adventures don't have to be detailed out in minute detail either - there is no reason to write a "personal novel" ... in fact, some of the SRM adventures are written with nothing but a given scenario - here is a complex, here is the objective, here are a couple of examples of how i think the runners will react, and what will happen under those circumstances. you can't anticipate everything, but the adventure has the setting described so that the GM can react to what the players/characters do. just because something is written in an adventure doesn't mean the characters will do that - or that you are restricted to those scenarios and have to lead them by the nose for it...

as for your record, i do not doubt it, but i've heard it before from people and sat at tables at gencon where the GM was running an independent game that he'd written, and supposedly he was an experienced GM as well. One adventure had people moving about with wings and purple fur on Mars, another had some alien dudes with big plasma cannons walking through the center of Seattle...while both knew the rules to the game, they had very warped concepts of the game-verse and what Shadowrun is all about. Now, of course, that alone could spark a hundred threads (and has), but i'm talking about running a Shadowrun game for new players, like you would as a Commando, not something you would do with your home group or as an experiment. For new players, you should be doing a standard shadowrun - a little legwork, a little planning, working the contacts, and then executing your plan and doing the shadowrun...

and writing the adventure doesn't mean that it will ever be used by you or anyone...unless the candidate is specifically writing it for SR Missions, no one but Clutch (and possibly Rob) see what is submitted. but we're always looking for improvement...sure, there are adventures out there for newbies, but we're always looking for something better, or at least new and fresh...

i'm really surprised that some of you are taking the attitude you are...i have seen many of you display your knowledge of the game here on the boards...i, for one, would like to see what you come up with for your players that keeps them in the game and coming back for more...send me your stuff, even if it's nothing but an outline - i'll flesh it out into an adventure and use it somewhere! :)
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bitrunner
post Dec 22 2004, 09:31 PM
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Jray -

you've answered your own question then...

the program isn't for everyone - if you don't have the free time and need to spend time with your family, then by all means that should come first...when they're older, come back and reexamine the issue...we have Commandos all the time that take a hiatus for family reasons...

Also, keep in mind that an event is an individual SR game...if you go to a convention and run a game on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, and you bring in players each time, that counts as 3 events...most people have a convention that is within a couple hours drive at least once per year...even without that, we're talking going to a gaming store once every two months (on average) and running a table for an afternoon (about 4-6 hours). i was doing that much before i became a Commando...

i'll throw out there that recent changes in the program allow for those that write a SR Missions adventure to choose to have that count as 2 events... ;)
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Wireknight
post Dec 22 2004, 10:28 PM
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If you can't write down a plot summary, scene outlines, NPC stats, and other basic framework aspects of a run, something is wrong. I know as well as the next guy how to improvise, but there's a fine line between improvisation-driven roleplay and just being too lazy to put things to paper.

No matter how my PCs have acted, what has been done during the mission, etc..., my combat NPC is still going to have Wired Reflexes, the main villain is still going to be hiding out from the runners in his safehouse in Renton, and Lone Star is still going to respond to disturbances with a pair of drones and patrolmen. While some things change based on actions and their outcomes, some are immutable.

NPC statistics are a good example. It's unfair(and usually obvious to the players) when you're just generating an NPC's stats entirely as situations advance, having them have a skill at two seperate levels in two seperate encounters because they didn't stack up well in the last one. Having a well-considered Dramatis Pesonae section put to paper prevents that sort of thing from having to happen.

When you have an outline, you can still improvise when the need arises, without resorting to railroading. When you have no outline, you have no choice but to improvise. I like to have the choice.
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Fortune
post Dec 23 2004, 12:35 AM
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In what way did I imply that I made up every single thing on the fly? When did I state that I didn't make (major) NPCs beforehand? :please:

Writing a scenario is much more than jotting down the stats of the opposition. If that's all that is required, I could write 50 scenarios in the next 6 minutes.
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iPad
post Dec 23 2004, 12:55 AM
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Its odd, I would love to write adventures, but couldnt really GM 6 shows a year. I dont know if there are 6 rpg shows in the uk a year.
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Fortune
post Dec 23 2004, 01:10 AM
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You are not limited to Conventions. For example, running games for newbies in a local gaming store or on a school campus also qualify.
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iPad
post Dec 23 2004, 01:18 AM
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Ah I see, its like Reaper figs 'Black Lightning' lot.

I worked for GW for 3 years which invovled demonstrating alot of games, but I dont want to get back into that right now.
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Jrayjoker
post Dec 23 2004, 02:00 AM
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I completely understand the limits and requirements, and I have made my choice for my circumstance. I was just letting you know my particulars.

I do plan on signing up later (a few years) if it is still around. I love introducing people to SR and roleplaying in general.
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Ecclesiastes
post Dec 23 2004, 02:03 AM
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Seeing this today prompted me to want to join up. I already started working on the mission I plan to submit. I GMed at GenCon SoCal this year and had a blast. I'd love to get more involved with things.
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RedmondLarry
post Dec 23 2004, 02:08 AM
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Ecclesiastes, I played in a couple of your games at GenCon SoCal. You'd be a good Commando, introducing new people to the game. Good luck.
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Ecclesiastes
post Dec 23 2004, 05:25 AM
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Thanks OurTeam. :)
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The White Dwarf
post Dec 23 2004, 07:46 AM
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Problem I have with it is twofold.

1) It requires you to run events at some external place, which is in fact the basis of the program. It can be extremly difficult to a place that supports this, and in turn players to go. Its possibly to run at a con, but that requires driving, money, time (days off work) etc etc. Its just not feasible.

2) It didnt seem to have well defined outlines (at least at the time I checked) such as a style sheet. I would have trouble feeling confident about writing or running adventures for something with little guidelines other than your own personal interpretation of the world. Some uniformity is neccessary given the whole concenpt of introducing people into the world in 1-off type situations to make that experience transferrable.

Im not really sure how to address those two, but a listing of participating cons (such as "we will have commando spots available here at a booth at xyz cons) and a style or example section might help. Just some thoughts.
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Clutch9800
post Dec 23 2004, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE

I see this as a no win situation. It's a program that asks for volunteers to spread the word about SR, which is cool. It then asks these volunteers to do far more work than they would normally do for a game to earn the right to donate their time to an official program. Kind of antithetical to the ideals of a volunteer program if you ask me.

It's kind of a catch-22 IMHO. I don't have a good soloution. This crops up in any volunteer program I've been involved with. I do see your point, and I don;t disagree with it. I do think the project is a good idea on paper.

Well,

Lets define the concept of "Volunteer" here. Yes the Commandos "volunteer" for the program. (We don't have Commando Press Gangs, although we're working on them.)

But that's where the term "Volunteer" ends. Once in the program, the Commandos are compensated for the time they spend promoting the game in stores or at conventions. Compensated pretty darn well I might add.

The vast majority of Commandos never pay for another sourcebook, they get them gratis from FanPro by exchanging credits that they earn as Commandos. So, while they are spending time playing and demonstrating Shadowrun, they aren't exactly "donating" it.

Clutch
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Fortune
post Dec 23 2004, 03:29 PM
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Maybe a seperate level of Commando might be useful (Fixer?). Rather than being compensated for demonstrations, they could merely be on-hand locally for rules adjudication and refereeing SRM.
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Clutch9800
post Dec 23 2004, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
Maybe a seperate level of Commando might be useful (Fixer?). Rather than being compensated for demonstrations, they could merely be on-hand locally for rules adjudication and refereeing SRM.

We already count tournament ref-ing as an event, so it's covered.

Clutch
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