 Any other programs?, Not that the NSRCG isn't da shiznit. |
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 Jan 1 2005, 03:05 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166  |
I was just wondering if there were any firearm creation programs, or a rigger 3 program?
The NSRCG is awesome, no disrespect. |
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Jan 1 2005, 05:11 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 236 Joined: 14-March 04 From: Cal Poly: SLO Member No.: 6,155 |
The Shop is a program for making vehicles, and I know there's a few gun programs floating around.
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Jan 1 2005, 06:07 AM
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#3
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The Shop is not fully compatable with SR3. I have heard several people proclaim an interest in updating it, but seen no results as of yet though.
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Jan 1 2005, 10:56 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
Are any of the programs CC compatable? If yes, where can I get ahold of them?
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Jan 2 2005, 01:01 AM
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#5
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Not that I know of. As with The Shop, several people have expressed interest in making a CC-compatable gun program, but no results have been forthcoming to my knowledge.
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Jan 2 2005, 02:38 PM
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#6
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
There is this program that makes use of the weapon construction rules. However: - it's german - it uses the german version of the construction rules (Arsenal 2060) that are slightly from the original CC rules - Last time I heard about it, the program still had some errors and its programmer currently doesn't have the time to fix it. - it's quite possible that the above link is an out-dated version, but I do not have a link to the programmer's site ... |
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Jan 2 2005, 05:43 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 236 Joined: 14-March 04 From: Cal Poly: SLO Member No.: 6,155 |
I know I got a CC gun creation program from somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.
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Jan 9 2005, 06:14 AM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 29-September 03 Member No.: 5,661 |
anyone know where i can get a copy of 'the shop'? the link i had bookmarked for michael ojestes' website is no longer valid.
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Jan 10 2005, 02:10 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 67 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Saskatoon Saskatchewan Canada Member No.: 2,412 |
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Jan 29 2005, 01:02 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Wherever injustice thrives! Member No.: 2,314 |
Gawd, it's been so long since I did any kind of programming...
<ponders what language NSRCG and other such programs are written in> |
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Jan 31 2005, 02:16 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 639 Joined: 22-April 02 Member No.: 2,638 |
NSRCG is C++, IIRC.
Here's my recommendations if you're looking to code something new: - Using a language that is cross-platform friendly is desirable, but not essential; as long as it runs on Windows, 95% of your target audience will be satisfied. - If your app is a reference aid (die rollers, table lookups, miscellaneous calculators), Javascript is a good choice. It'll run on (damn near) anything with a web browser, so it can be considered cross-platform. Developer requirements are minimal (a text editor and a web browser, basically). And because it is an interpreted scripting language, end-users can modify the code to meet their needs if necessary. - If your app needs to save to a file (character generator, drone generator, etc.), Java is a good cross-platform choice since 99% of the computers being sold today have some version of it already installed. However, it's file I/O routines are unusual and (personally) counter-intuitive. - Python, Perl, and Ruby are also good choices, but may require users to download additional 3rd party software to run. - If you're going for a Windows-only app, check out the Windows Scripting Host (WSH), a built-in scripting engine that uses Visual Basic or Javascript and has more intuitive I/O routines. Of course, you also have the field of .NET languages to play with: VB.net, C#, J#, and Visual Studio C++. Hope this helps. |
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Jan 31 2005, 06:12 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 10-February 04 Member No.: 6,068 |
I recommend a PHP/MySQL solution if someone is starting from scratch. This would be especially nice, since the GM would have instant access to review updates that players make as well as he will have exact up-to-date data to plan his runs. You would also be able to work on your char from any net accessible computer in the world.
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Jan 31 2005, 06:52 PM
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
*lol* Sorry, unless you're talking server / client scenario and internet, that's a stupid suggestion. A third party database system and PHP processing capapbilities to run it on a client system is most definitely nothing to go for, when starting from scratch. The fact that neither PHP nor MySQL currently do cost anything for private users is no argument there.
I just don't see, where PHP or MySQL would have anything to do with "instant" review updates or up-to-date planing. The key factor there is access, which has nothing to do with either PHP or MySQL.
Provided that you have server system that is constantly reachable as well. The major problem there: As common as 24/7 connections are for certain broadband users, they still aren't the default situation. And then of course the user still might want to use the program locally (including making changes to the database) and within that context your idea of using PHP and MySQL is a no-brainer. The next problem is that not everybody (even amongst those who have 24/7 connections) is willing or capable of running a server system. We're still talking users not hobby / professional admins here. Although I'm in the IT biz I still find it rather difficult to even get a normal Apache running in an acceptable manner without PHP or MySQL support, and you're seriously suggesting to go that way for a chargen (or any other SR tool)? |
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Jan 31 2005, 07:41 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024 |
Weblogic and java apps like to crash all the time too.
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Jan 31 2005, 08:41 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 10-February 04 Member No.: 6,068 |
As a matter of fact, server/client and internet is PRECISELY what I am talking about. Source Forge is rife with this type of project, and for a very good reason. The Intenet is DESIGNED to share information as a community. A gaming group is such a Community. Having chars on an internet server gives instant access to any changes on a character to a GM.
You are precisely right that this "instant" review is part of it being a Web Application rather than it being PHP/MySQL per se, however, I still recommend PHP/MySQL over other types of Web Applications, because more ISPs support that format, and also because that format is Infinitely Scalable. You could recommend .NET, but then good luck not paying twice as much for an ISP to host it.
Yes.... Are you using this server? Because this program, this Forum is PHP/MySQL. Every single end user does not have to have a server to use it. As a matter of fact, thousands are using it everyday, and most of them don't have a server. If someone made a PHP/MySQL character generator/displayer, do you think it would be hard to convince someone at Dumpshock to get it running there? Do you think that there wouldn't be someone somewhere that might host it, like Dumpshock does these forums? I play World Of Warcraft, and there are at least 3 sites that retrieve and display character information for free. This is incredibly useful, and I can't believe that especially for a game with as complicated a build system as SR would not benefit from this type of convience. |
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Jan 31 2005, 09:51 PM
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Other matter(s) of fact(s): 1. Noone so far talked about something like that 2. Your suggestion didn't talk of something like that either 3. Although a gaming group is a "community", that still doesn't make a web-based server-client system really a good idea for character generators and the majority of other suitable RPG tools ...
I still wouldn't recommend anything like that, since I highly doubt the effectiveness of something that is normally used without Internet connection. Having to install MySQL and PHP in order to use that thing locally is even more unattractive than the current Half-Life 2 that requires I-Net connection to even install an play the game (later on you actually can play without a connection, but it's still a pain in the ass).
Consequently I would recommend .NET or JAVA, since most users have either installed and there are no further setup requirements to be made (configuring MySQL correctly is yet another issue for the local user) ... And that recommendation is only valid as long as portability really is wanted.
You obviously didn't catch my drift.
The problem there: I must be connected to the internet in order to use this forum ;) An application like a character generator is most definitely not a program that by its own virtue qualifies for a internet connection in order to be used => Anyone who wants to use this programm will have to run not only the client, but also the local server with PHP plus MySQL, if really is PHP and MySQL based ...
Probably not. But the idea as such is still not really convincing. Not everyone will be willing to pay connection fees, just to utilize a character generator. And yes, not everyone is connected to the Internet permanently and / or without traffic restrictions.
Even if so, the user will still depend on someone actually doing so. And if more than one person provides such a service, one of your major arguments rapidly will vanish: Instantly being up-to-date would depend on the individual provider and his update practices. And I'm dead sure that most admins out there are not too fond of the idea of people having access to their MySQL database with writing access in order to have their own set of gear and stuff. Something that is very common with programs like that (or why is it that people now start to hack Raygun's stuff into the .dat-files of NSRCG?) ...
You see, WoW is designed as an online game. But a character generator? Sorry, I still have my doubts. And just to make this clear: I once thought myself of creating a web based character generator and even started to implement it, before I realized that it's not the brightest idea in the first place ... |
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Feb 1 2005, 08:30 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 10-February 04 Member No.: 6,068 |
1. Which is why I brought it up. 2. I was hoping that it would be implied by my suggestion of a Web-App 3. Web-Apps are useful for all sorts of communities. This Forum is such an example of a Web-App for an RPG community. I think that many of the threads here would be enhanced if a user could put in a link to a character sheet, or item description. These features are used all the time with 3rd party web-apps in computer gaming forums. RPGs are hardly very different at all. Most MMORPGs have webbased character creators and character data displays via 3rd party Web-Apps. These are EXTENSIVELY used. Could you come up with cases where it would not be best, I'm sure. I can easily come up with cases where it would be best. Go rain on someone elses parade. If you don't want to use it, you don't have to.
I will give you that, but it is a rarity these days for most people to use a PC without an internet connection, and you are DEAD WRONG that they would have to have a local copy. I once again point to this Forum, which is on the Internet, I use it everyday, and I don't have a copy of MySQL or PHP on this computer. But I can use it from here at work or at my house later, or both with not setup and no data to transfer.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Web Applications don't require and admin to keep the data up-to-date. Everytime a user changes something and posts the form, the Data online is automatically updated. I have to point again to this very Forum, where myself and thousands of others fill out forms and post data that is instantly available to everyone else on the internet, and we all do it on some other admin's MySQL database for free. And this forum contains hordes more data than a char gen DB would.
LOL, that's because EVERY application is moving to an online venue, because it's ludicrous to try moving data and keeping applications up-to-date. You can put your head in the sand all you want and deny it, but that is the future. Check out SourceForge. You'll see that I'm right. Besides, I only made a simple suggestion as to what I would like to see, just as other people did. I do not require ignorant responses. Take your childish flame-war elsewhere. Besides, I don't see how it hurts you for my opinion to be heard. |
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Feb 1 2005, 11:01 PM
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Fine ... but hopefully, you'll see that the idea as such isn't too good. We'll see at the end ... *Warning this is going to be rather long ...
Just because you refer to PHP and or MySQL that doesn't necessarily imply that you actually want a web based application. I have seen more than one person suggesting programming languages and systems totally unfit for their idea. Since I'm not willing to speculate on your background knowledge in issues like that, I prefer asking ...
We're talking an application that is closer to a word processing program than to a forum ... Just because some sort of database is involved, that doesn't make it automatically a Web-App ...
... so your constant reference to this forum will not help us here, because we're talking a different application ...
Which is something totally different to a character generator. All you'd need for that is a web compliant output of the chargen and possible some upload function to a board like this. Problem there: Different board architectures would need individual upload routines => It's better to have a specific upload function within a board software and simply do the upload of an html-output from the generator. But this has nothing to do with a character generator as web based tool.
And what has this to do with web based character generators?
Third party display of html-files or pictures is not what we're talking about. We're talking about the sense behind having a PHP / MySQL based character generator.
I'm pretty sure that a character generatormost definitely is not one of those good ideas. I'll come back to this further down the road.
You should come up with cases that involve a character generator, since that's what you're proposing here.
No need for getting defensive, o.k.? I'm trying to show you why your idea isn't really that good and I'm giving you reason from my own experience ...
A rarity? I guess your refering to the american standards? Sorry to burst your bubble there, but this is an international community and most definitely not all users do have constant or cheap access to the internet. And you're more or less "dead" wrong when saying that I wouldn't need a local "copy" while not being online, if I actually want to use that program. Without access to the database, no use of the program.
And while you're not connected to the internet, you cannot access any data stored in the MySQL database of this server. But in order to use a theoretical newly designed character generator, you need access to the databases that contain gear, spells, skills, etc.
Humbug. Without connection to forum.dumpshock.com and the implicit connection to its MySQL database you're not going to see one single posting in this forum.
To me that only shows that you haven't actually thought about what I was telling you and rather resort to name calling while simultaniously accusing me of flaming ...
No? I guess site admins are a waste of time then, just as moderators in forums?
Very true, but not the point that I was aiming at. It's not so much about the general possibility of adding something to the database. The real issues lie with deleting and "spamming" within the database.
And yet you are not normally allowed to delete anything. Moderators have to intervene whenever someone spams (albeit the automatic post delay function) and of course the admin has to do regular updates to avoid problems with found vulnerabilities ... we're still talking the internet, aren't we? ;)
And this database provides you with far less privileges than a character generator would need to grant to its database in order to provide the functionality that e.g. NSRCG provides to the end user.
I guess that's why I still don't have my office programs on the net? In a (not too distant) future, where ultra broadband connections are availible for everyone, this might become true, but we're not quite there. And still then, local installations and files will still exist.
I'm not putting my head into the sand, but you're getting inpolite without due reason. Checking out Sourceforge won't help me there ...
Who's being ignorant here?
And who is flaming? Sorry to say that: But you're the one who's abusing the TOE of this board right now, not me.
But it hurts to hear mine? Although I'm quite pissed right now, I'm still willing to give you some food for thought on your PHP / MySQL idea:
And while it's quite possible to actually create a program with such features, I'm more than willing to bet that a majority of user would still prefer having a local database that they can change as they see fit without the need of being online or special user registration. Not to mention laptop users that are still far away from having constant wireless internet access. My conclusion thus is: A web based database would be a nice feature, but that's all. Btw. I'd love to hear other thoughts on that isse, since I even tried to implement something like that, but finally had to give it up due to most of the above reasons ... |
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Feb 2 2005, 10:37 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 10-February 04 Member No.: 6,068 |
Yes, it does, when you attack my idea instead of proposing a different one. Take for instance, Spookymonster thought that writting in Java would be the way to go, and though I disagreed with him, I chose to propose a different way. I did not say
I admit that after I tried to explain myself in my second post and you chose to be impolite again, I was a bit nasty, but come on, how long do you expect me to sit back while you attack me.
Untrue. The GM only needs links to the Players' characters on whichever servers they choose to use. As I said before, this is common in MMORPGs, World of Warcraft has 3 that people use. For help and advice, someone might point people on the forums to anyone of them.
This too, is not the case. As does mcmackie with his program, the designer has to merely take this into account in the design. Specialty items could easily go into a common table with a key for the user or group.
Time will tell on that, but Oracle has many other advantages over MySQL. I, in fact, have been an Oracle Developer for more than 10 years now, and I could write volumes on the subject. The one advantage that MySQL has over Oracle is it's simplicity. It does almost nothing, and therefore it's scalability is phenominal. Oracle has many many features that MySQL does not. Foreign keys, full Standard SQL parsing (complex SQL will choke MySQL), Triggers, Procedure and packaging, Time of Failure recovery, dozens of indexing features including procedural, etc.
I would be willing to do that. I would be willing to bet that the admins here at Dumpshock would be as well. If the program is halfway decent, it shouldn't add any real time to maintenance, sense the already have to do that for this program's database. If you have started this type of project before, please let me know how far you got, what problems you had that stopped you, and how I can help. I have many years experience in this, and I'm willing to help you get it back on track. |
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Feb 2 2005, 11:28 PM
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
You see: I didn't attack your idea at all ;) I said that unless you wanted something like that, the idea of PHP / MYSQL would be stupid. At that point I had no idea that you actually wanted something like that ;) Be honest: Would you describe it as a good idea if someone suggested PHP / MySQL for a stand-alone, local installation? Because that's the context of all suggestions that where made before that point and my comment was in relation to that.
=> Look at this once more and ask yourself: Did I actually attack your idea or did I attack the idea of using PHP / MySQL in that context that had been discussed up to that point?
I wasn't impolite after you tried to explain yourself ;) So my questions would be: Where did I actually attack you as person? Where did I actually attack your idea? Attacking and questioning your idea are two differnt things ... So I won't ask you to sit back, when someone actually gets personal, but in this case I wasn't even close to being "offensive" towards you or your idea.
Links to the finished characters. I'm talking about the generation as such. There would be no gain in comparison to just handing him a finished character sheet produced with NSRCG, if he still had to go to each server and had to check the correctness of the character ;)
That's a totally different approach: You cannot create WoW-characters "outside" the rules of the servers (unless you start hacking) => The ruleset is fixed for all players. We're talking a P&P roleplaying game, where individual groups have individual access to the various sourcebooks and individually alter rules and gear, as they see fit => The process of building a character is not the same, although they generally use the same rules (or parts thereof). So in this point your WoW comparison simply fails.
Which still has nothing to do with the character generator ... I'm only talking about a character generator. No matter if it's server-based or not.
I don't think that you're correct with that assertion ...
So? You need a "options" table, right?
... and that table would need to be availible for user and / or group. You just told me that something like that wouldn't be needed ;) Of course you could make all those fields part of just one major table called user, but that's not very efficient in terms of proper database modelling.
I guess we can leave that issue aside, since it has next to no impact on such a theoretical server-based chargen ... except maybe pricing ;)
Unlike forum moderation, something like that would be way harder to delegate and of course the job would be significantly harder as well.
As I said in the previous post: We're talking a different level of user interaction with the database ...
I trashed the whole project, once I got to the point where I had to acknowledge that a server-based chargen to my best knowledge and experience wouldn't provide the usability I'd expect from a character generator, unless the server's involvement would be reduced to mere database functions. I am still considering the version with a (most likely) JAVA-based client program that does all necessary calculations on client side, but includes modules not only for local database access (most likely similar to the current NSRCG), but also for server-based databases (either directly or "tunneled" over a html-output of a webserver [where PHP could be used, as you suggested]). The output would include html, possibly xml ... and including a module that also allows an upload to specified servers (or suited character databases) is something that could be debated, once the program runs and the output as such is satisfactory ... Yet my time for actually programing something like that is rather restricted, since currently I'm putting more effort into getting myself a new job ... and even if that weren't the case, you'd better not expect to see me getting anywhere soon: Although I like computers, programing, etc. I'm not the "geek" type who spends all of his spare time on pet projects like that ... |
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Feb 2 2005, 11:50 PM
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#21
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
to inject some realworldness into the fancy thought of always on connections and broadband, heres a dose of a lil thing called reality... My BEST connection is at 26.4. AT BEST. (and yes, i have a 56K modeom) where do i live? The middle of a desert? Timbuktu? nope, outside of Somerset,pa USA. Not only that, but the phone company has forsaken us and told us theres next to no chance of us getting DSL in the area, and if they even would, they would have to rip out and replace ALL of the phone lines in the area. As a side note to that, another local town just got put on touchtone dialing in the past 5 years.
The local cable company doesnt even OFFER internet service. The only other option is satellite, which, for what it costs for instalation and use, really isnt worth it.. i can't wait to get a real job and get outa this place, |
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Feb 3 2005, 08:51 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 10-February 04 Member No.: 6,068 |
Yes, actually, the US is BEHIND most other countries(read 1st world countries) in Ubiqutious broadband and even any internet connections. Fortunately, time will make your unfortunate situation more and more rare. That's awesome about the touch-tone. I've worked on several Telecom roll-outs. I had no idea places were THAT far out dated. |
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Feb 3 2005, 09:01 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 10-February 04 Member No.: 6,068 |
Fair enough. I offer a compromise idea. Make a PHP/MySQL character sheet/ info display server that can take the char-sheet info from XML produced by and Char-gen app. Then when time permits add the capability to edit info of the char on the PHP app. Then you have what I was intending to propose, and you can have your non-internet client to gen the char, and we are both happy. |
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Feb 5 2005, 03:32 AM
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
the problem is, the time to get there could be possibly, HUGE. verizon, our telephone company, , as i had said, has pretty much forsaken us. Even IF they wanted to start fixing it, monday, i would have to hazzard a guess it would take a few years (atleast) t get my area up to speed for DSL. They would have to rip out all of the phone lines (literally) since the max modem connection they can carry is 26.4K. They would have to set up their substations for the DSL, since the max distance it will travel is what? 2 miles, and then you're getting down to not so effective speeds. and we're about 15 miles from somerset,pa i'd wager, which is likely the closest town that MIGHT have DSL. Cable would most likely be a similar problem, as i'm SURE they wouldnt have fiberoptic cables up here in the mountains, thought that might even be more problematic, as the lines are mostly buried in the ground, i think. and it's only auesume if you're not one of the people having to use rottery phones |
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