 Hurting my Players |
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 Jan 16 2005, 06:39 AM
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#51
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775  |
For the final time (which of course means it will never end as people keep bringing up again and again ang again) you cannoy hit a specific location in Shadowrun. All attacks are purely abstract, and if you don't like it, hey, that's fine! I hate it too! But refusing to accept that simply is canon is insane!
Shadowrun is not a system built to allow precision and its combat has been constructed around the assumption of fully abstract combat. There are inconsistencies, yes, and where the Shadowrun designers have written them in, very stupid things occur, but this does not change the overall structure of the system. Please understand that it is enourmously frustrating for this very stupid debate to continue when there is, in fact, nothing to debate. No one's saying you have to like it— but you do have to accept it as canon. |
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Jan 16 2005, 06:43 AM
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#52
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Did you NOT just read that e-mail? Why would ShadowFaq make the distinction between armor ratings on arms, legs, front and back torso, and head if you can't hit a specific location? You tell me who's refusing to accept what IS canon. You just heard it from the people who WROTE canon, for God's sake.
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Jan 16 2005, 06:59 AM
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#53
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Actually, did just read that. Unfortunately, it fails to clearly provide a game mechanic that allows for actually shooting that head in the first place, and two, apparently seems to completely reverse the previous canon position that targeting specific bodyparts was not allowable within Shadowrun on < car sized targets— or, at least, it ambiguously implies that. I don't know if this is something that change when I skipped out on these forums for a couple months. Even less fortunate, this opens up yet another can of shit in this ceaseless debate. Kind of funny when you consider that "abstract" was supposed to ease things along.
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Jan 16 2005, 07:04 AM
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#54
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
The game mechanic stays the same. If you're just going to shoot someone, fine, pull the trigger. If you want to hit a leg or an arm or a head, call the shot. You'll disable the limb (or pop the noggin like grape) and it'll be easier to do because only the armor that's on that body part will apply. Not difficult at all.
Is the complication in knowing what armor goes where? Because I don't see the problem. |
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Jan 16 2005, 07:16 AM
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#55
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
It's grafting a hit location system into a game that is not at all designed for it. It's not like people haven't written up hit location systems for SR already, but they had the good sense to not piece it together half assed after the fact. That Shadowfaq email creates a completely senseless system that is not at all elegantly playable and for which Shadowrun was not designed.
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Jan 16 2005, 07:22 AM
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#56
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Again, I don't see the problem. It seems like it works to me. I guess I'm just not seeing how aiming at what you specifically want to hit is half-assed and "not at all elegantly playable." (Whatever the hell THAT is.) You call a shot, you shoot. Arm, leg, whatever. It's. Not. That. Hard.
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Jan 16 2005, 07:30 AM
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#57
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
So you didn't notice that none of the armor is intended to work with hit locations and you have to do all the work yourself through a system that was designed for cyberlimb armor (and, incidentally, should never have been done with separate armor locations to begin with)?
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Jan 16 2005, 07:36 AM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
You have to read the whole thing, not just until you see something you don't like. Try the second method, which is the common sense, not hard at all method that I've been harping on.
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Jan 16 2005, 07:38 AM
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#59
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Unfortunately, that method doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense, and really, really begins to break down when you start talking about different pant legs, arms on jackets as opposed to torso segments, and so on.
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Jan 16 2005, 07:43 AM
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#60
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The point being, Shadowrun was not designed with hit locations in mind. In fact, quite the opposite. The armor system is wholely abstract, and any attempts to add on specific hit locations after the fact is inane.
Called Shots are fine when all they do is up the DL, or for a specific effect, at a cost of +4 to the attacker's TN (options #1 and #3 of the FAQ). Bypassing armor (FAQ option #2) is a tacked on ruling that severly screws with the whole system. This is why people like Raygun have gone to the trouble of reworking the entire system (armor and all) in order to logically include hit locations. |
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Jan 16 2005, 07:44 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
One word: Helmets. |
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Jan 16 2005, 07:47 AM
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#62
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Helmets add their rating to the overall armor of the entire body, not just the head. This is a result of the abstract combat and armor system used in Shadowrun.
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Jan 16 2005, 07:50 AM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Yes indeed, helmets, which give an abstract bonus to protection regardless of where you get hit, and the Armor Rating of which seems to have very little to do with how protective they actually are and more to do with what kind of attacks would generally hit the head at random and what kinds of effects those random attacks would have.
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Jan 16 2005, 07:56 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
I know. But the inclusion of helmets suggests they were thinking with a called shot idea in mind. Not to mention, there are certain armor types with variable amounts of coverage.
While it is an abstract system, the way they designed it allows for specifics to be thrown in at the will of the GM. It's part of system adaptibility. |
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Jan 16 2005, 08:12 AM
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#65
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I just can't see that. Like I said, helmets seem to provide protection largely based on what kind of attacks generally hit the head at random: You're less likely to get shot in the head, so the Ballistic rating of the helmet is not as important, whereas pressure waves from explosions, shrapnel and melee attacks are much more likely to hit the head and to cause serious damage there, thus a higher Impact rating. From the way helmets are handles in SR3, it seems they weren't thinking about called shots at all. |
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Jan 16 2005, 08:31 AM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Let's go with the toughest milspec we've got in the game. The helmet from it adds 2 to each part of the armor. Not bad when you consider most types of armor don't. Now, answer me this: Why, beyond the other tangibles it can provide, would a helmet provide such a large armor increase? Since we're talking a system designed to be entirely abstract, the helmet is just an item that is a wasted entry. They could have taken the DnD route of simply including the helmet and having it offer no armor protection, as DnD also uses an abstract system. All of teh extra gizmos they include are not really affected by whether the helmet adds armor on to the suit. And I certainly can't name anyone thinking tactically who wouldn't go for the helmet. And no matter which way you look at it, if the bullet bypasses the total armor rating when flying at a person's face, it's going to probably kill them no matter if the helmet provides armor or not. Considering the helmet has a separate armor rating that it adds to the total armor, I would say they're not thinking with just the idea of an abstract system. After all, it's very easy to justify not giving the helmet that armor raiting or stating it as important beyond what it can hold by simply saying it has alreadyy been figured into the armor. No, they're asking "What if a bullet hits him in the head?" Or "What if a bomb goes off near his head or an explosion reaches his head?" Once you start down that path, you're not just thinking of an abstract system. You're adding in questions about a system that either does or can possibly allow enough specifics for a bullet to strike the combatant in the head. And, if given some time to get some sleep and pull out a book or two, I suspect I can find more example of them thinking of more than just the abstract. |
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Jan 16 2005, 08:38 AM
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#67
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Well, consider then that Called Shots to bypass armor was not introduced until just last year, which was 14 years after the armor and combat systems were initially introduced. The original intent of the system was abstract, with Called Shots being to unspecified areas and rsulting in an increase to the DL.
Helmets were introduced for flavor (and to include all the nifty accessories), the same as Forearm Guards and Snake Mesh socks. |
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Jan 16 2005, 09:12 AM
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#68
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Was the "Called Shots To Bypass Armor" thingie ever added to the SR3 Errata? I thought it was, but it isn't there now.
Your logic here evades me completely. The helmet is a wasted entry and shouldn't provide armor in an abstract system because helmets don't provide armor in D&D either? Or what? The Hardened Military Grade Helmet, a great helm of the 21st century, is a huge piece of rigid armor composites with a see-through ballistic polymer faceplate. It alone weighs as much as an Armored Jacket and a Lined Coat weigh together. It'll stop cold most attacks to the head, neck, and possibly parts of the upper torso where it's attached. So perhaps you're thinking, the head is such a small target, why does protecting it provide so much armor? Simple: because any attack that does hit the head would be extremely lethal, so any protection provided to the head per unit of area is far more important than a similar level of protection per unit of area provided to the arms or the legs. And, as I apparently have to constantly point out, certain types of attacks hit the head more often with greater effect, and thus both Security and Military helmets have a higher Impact than Ballistic rating, while the full body armor suits they're based on and supposed to be worn with all have a higher Ballistic rating than Impact. If the given armor ratings for security and military helmets were intended to be used as the (basis for) armor rating in the head only, there'd be no reason whatsoever to give them a higher Impact rating.
So, assuming a character wears a Medium Security Armor and a Security Helmet (7/7 total armor) and, using house rules where you're allowed to shoot at particular parts of a target, he gets shot in the face. According to Method #1 described in the email from ShadowFAQ (which is often quoted in these threads), the faceplate of the helmet has an armor rating of (at least) B5/I10, which is extremely high and can certainly make a huge difference in the survival of the person getting shot in the face. According to Method #2, the faceplate of the helmet has an armor rating between 7/6 and 8/8 (depending on whether you consider the helmet Light, Medium or Heavy Security Armor). In this case, the faceplate is equally well or better protected against small arms fire as the rest of the body. The only other method of doing called shots to bypass armor I've heard mentioned is a simple Called Shot to just plain bypass all armor or to halve armor, or something similar. Regardless of the amount of armor bypassed, this method sort of keeps with the abstract nature of SR rules and never concerns itself with matters of "hitting the face" or armor ratings by body part or any of that crap. Are you perhaps suggesting that the B1/I2 and B2/I3 armor ratings of the security and the military helmets, respectively, were designed to be used as the armor ratings in case a person wearing them gets hit in the head? This view is completely contradicted in several ways, including the way the helmet armor is taken into count in the total armor rating and the lack of any rules concerning (and indeed the explicit disallowance of) called shots to a certain body parts in SR3.
Yes, and they're integrating those things into the total armor rating, keeping with the abstracted nature of SR combat where, when firing conventional ammunition with small arms at people, the rules never say where you get hit. They're thinking: "It's about this likely to get hit in the head in combat with these types of attacks and the effect would be this, so to describe the protection provided by a certain type of helmet the bonus to the total, abstract armor rating would have to be this."
Check out M&M and the section dealing with called shots for chemical delivery, if you want to get really cliché'd.
Not unless you're adding house rules. Canon never states or implies that you can, and the intent of the rules is very clear: you cannot call a shot to a specific body part. mm.106 is the only thing in SR that contradicts this, and is a very special case that only works for chemical delivery with certain weapon types, and there's still no rules for dealing with such a thing. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jan 16 2005, 09:16 AM |
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Jan 16 2005, 09:17 AM
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#69
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Not that I know of. It was only added to the FAQ. Hopefully they will fix it (ie remove it) in the next update. |
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Jan 16 2005, 12:31 PM
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#70
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
The ShadowFAQ implies that you can make a Call Shot to a specific location. You can shoot at a specific location and if you hit, get to apply only armour at that location. That is also Canon FAQ, as per email. However, it is also Canon FAQ that you can call shots to totally bypass armour. Unless you happen to be enforcing Wound Effects and using Call Shots to produce specific Wound Effect, there is no real advantage to using "call shot to a specific location"!
Yes, the FAQ and ShadowFAQ's subsequent email implies allowance for shots at a location, but the FAQ also allows bypassing of armour entirely. Remember all this is implication since ShadowFAQ never disputed the email's Call Shot to a Specific location. In tacitly allowing a then-house rule called "Call Shots to Specific location", he has made it at least semi-Canon. If ShadowFAQ's intent was to simply provide official suggestions as to how to calculate Armour in a specific location for a house ruling of the FAQ, he did not make that clear, so you may think that it is Canon. However, it also opens another can of worms. How specific can you call a location? You might want to shoot off his left ear or his right pinkie or at the hinge of the armoured helmet he is wearing. How do you calculate the armour at his ear? Or his pinkie? |
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Jan 16 2005, 01:00 PM
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#71
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
ShadowFAQ is not canon.
ShadowFaq is one person's opinion (although a quite knowledgeable person's at that, and certainly a valid opinion). He interprets the written rules in a certain way, which may often be a good way to interpret them, but as he himself admits he has no official capacity to change the rules -- and to introduce called shots with a small arm firing conventional ammunition to a specific body part of a metahuman would certainly count as "changing the rules".
Whether and to what extent the Shadowrun FAQ is official and/or canon is not something I wish to go into, it has been debated often enough in the past. |
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Jan 16 2005, 01:38 PM
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#72
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Very well, he is in a position that gives his word semi-Canon weight. By his own admission he has no official capacity to cahnge the rules, but his official capacity allows him to interpret the rules as to give them semi-Canon weight or at least weight disproportionate to someone else.
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Jan 16 2005, 06:48 PM
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#73
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
How bizarre. Let me check shadowrunrpg.com...... Checking.... http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/errata_sr3.shtml It dosen't revise the Quickness penalty described in the text of SR3. In fact, it just potentially makes it possible to lose quickness from both Ballistic *and* Impact, so it makes it harsher.
I think you're wrong about penalties to Combat Pool and Quickness not applying, since I have just checked the Errata. Why would the game designers let the characters run around with ridiculous amounts of layered armor with no penalty, anyway? EDIT: Wait, sorry. Didn't realize you were talking about Form Fitting armor off the bat. The reason is that I followed a link that I had gotten from an email, so I had started typing with a misunderstanding of exactly what was being discussed. |
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Jan 16 2005, 06:57 PM
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#74
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
It's been said before, and I'll say it again. Doing crap like that not only lowers Combat Pool, but also lowers Quickness and assigns big TN penalties! Ikra.... Pg. 285, SR 3, from the third paragraph:
That means firing small arms, i.e. Pistols, Shotguns, etc... The paragraph continues,
So it also makes you run slowly. So no free rides with the armor. They may take 7 points of Ballistic, but then most likely anyone without a through-the-roof quickness would be getting major TN penalties to shooting. EDIT: Wait, sorry. Didn't realize you were talking about Form Fitting armor off the bat. The reason is that I followed a link that I had gotten from an email, so I had started typing with a misunderstanding of exactly what was being discussed. |
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Jan 16 2005, 07:01 PM
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#75
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Unfortunately, with the errata, it looks like form-fitting dosen't screw you over in the quickness department. :(
At least if you're layering the Full-body Suit it only gives +2 ballistic for being layered. *sighs* Time to bust out the APDS ammo, I guess... That and actually have NPCs make called shots to bypass armor. I'd been holding off on doing that... |
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