Full Version: Hurting my Players
I have a problem. My players armour rating, I think, are really high. They usually wear form-fitting armour with some sort of duster over it giving them roughly around a 7/4 armour rating. Do you guys think this is too high?
Ah, you round up the 1/2 on FFBA's impact. Not that it makes much difference. Apply similar techniques for opposition (your PCs aren't the only creatures on earth smart enough to layer armor) and it'll be fine.
Melee weapons, burst fire, and large guns can get past that little 7:4 without much difficulty. Even an AVS wielded with mild competance and one aimed burst can hurt them with that armor.
Melee weapons, burst fire, and large guns can get past that little 7:4 without much difficulty. Even an AVS wielded with mild competance and one aimed burst can hurt them with that armor.
Are you remembering to apply the quickness penalties for layering armor? Because that'd be an insanely high QCK for them to have.
FFBA doesn't have any adverse effects when layering anymore, as per the errata/faq/wherever they mentioned it. Basically it doesn't count when determining quickness-related penalties etc.
Anyway, 7/4 really isn't that much at all. The players are just trying to protect themselves, and quite rightly too - there are LOADS of things that can hurt them. Burst fire/full auto, grenades, melee weapons, APDS or EX explosive ammo, etc etc etc. It's really no problem to hurt them if you want to. Even an unaugmented but strong (str 5) individual wielding a katana in two hands does 9M base, against the imact armour of 4 that's not too much fun, assuming a body that's not well into the double figures.
Likewise any kind of blast in a confined space will ruin them, as will a whole host of firearms. So many options!
Anyway, 7/4 really isn't that much at all. The players are just trying to protect themselves, and quite rightly too - there are LOADS of things that can hurt them. Burst fire/full auto, grenades, melee weapons, APDS or EX explosive ammo, etc etc etc. It's really no problem to hurt them if you want to. Even an unaugmented but strong (str 5) individual wielding a katana in two hands does 9M base, against the imact armour of 4 that's not too much fun, assuming a body that's not well into the double figures.
Likewise any kind of blast in a confined space will ruin them, as will a whole host of firearms. So many options!
APDS the only problem with it is that they could pick some up off of their enemies' corpses.
Very true. You could use small amounts, or make sure the opponents are using weapons that the PCs generally don't. Or just use regular ammo, but more of it at once!
Or you could abandon the layering rules, like I have in my campaign. People walk around in 5/3 armour, with implant additions, and tend to survive.
Course, I don't make nearly as much use of General Armour Piercing or APDS ammo as I should :o)
Course, I don't make nearly as much use of General Armour Piercing or APDS ammo as I should :o)
An Armor Jacket and FFBA are 7/3 (round second layer down), which is pretty standard for most players I've seen. One could even say i's on the low side when you factor in stuff like magic. I don't really see the problem.
Keep in mind that he said duster, so he probably means long coat, so that'd be 6/2 as well.
~J
~J
Yeah I know, but I was just trying to give an example of a commonly-used combination that nearly matched his figures. 
| QUOTE (MagicalGirlPrettyMatt) |
| Are you remembering to apply the quickness penalties for layering armor? Because that'd be an insanely high QCK for them to have. |
Nah, not really. Since FFBA doesn't count, it'd only be a quickness of 5. Some players could step outside with an armor of 12 and not be adversely affected. (Qickness: 10, plus FFBA)
I know I going to regret this, but how could a player come up 12 w/o mil or sec armor?
| QUOTE (Smiley) |
| Since FFBA doesn't count, it'd only be a quickness of 5. |
Quickness of 4 actually, as penalties do not start until the armor rating exceeds quickness by 2 (FFBA excepted).
| QUOTE (kevyn668) |
| I know I going to regret this, but how could a player come up 12 w/o mil or sec armor? |
Presumably people in that case are allowing more than two pieces of armour to layer at once. A lot of people only allow two, some allow any number.
Either that or a whole hell of a lot of cyberlimb armour, in addition to worn armour, since it counts for the penalties as well.
In regards to PC's wearing high levels of amrour, do you have your NPC's used called shots or something similar? If the opposition sees that they're soaking up the hits without much bother, why not try shooting for the unarmoured parts- although this only really counts if you use the errata called shots can bypass armour rules.
Some countermeasures:
-Impact damage. Grenades work nicely, as do melee attacks.
-Magic. 'Nuff said.
-APDS. It can really ruin any PC's day.
-Water. Watch them try to swim in all that armor...
And here's a houserule I use that helps a lot with armor:
-A called shot (+4 TN penalty) can be used to, instead of staging damage up one level, hit a part of the target that has weaker or no armor. The faceplate of a helmet is a good candidate for that.
-Impact damage. Grenades work nicely, as do melee attacks.
-Magic. 'Nuff said.
-APDS. It can really ruin any PC's day.
-Water. Watch them try to swim in all that armor...
And here's a houserule I use that helps a lot with armor:
-A called shot (+4 TN penalty) can be used to, instead of staging damage up one level, hit a part of the target that has weaker or no armor. The faceplate of a helmet is a good candidate for that.
| QUOTE (Zeel De Mort) |
| FFBA doesn't have any adverse effects when layering anymore, as per the errata/faq/wherever they mentioned it. Basically it doesn't count when determining quickness-related penalties etc. Anyway, 7/4 really isn't that much at all. The players are just trying to protect themselves, and quite rightly too - there are LOADS of things that can hurt them. Burst fire/full auto, grenades, melee weapons, APDS or EX explosive ammo, etc etc etc. It's really no problem to hurt them if you want to. Even an unaugmented but strong (str 5) individual wielding a katana in two hands does 9M base, against the imact armour of 4 that's not too much fun, assuming a body that's not well into the double figures. Likewise any kind of blast in a confined space will ruin them, as will a whole host of firearms. So many options! |
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY...
In that case, I have a bone to pick with my GM.
Well, with low impact ratings you can have them get into melee combat. You could use chemical weapons, even 'tame' stuff like neurostun. Electric based stun weapons.
As mentioned the chunky salsa effect of a regular physical-dmg type grenade in an enclosed space, such as a hallway in a building, can be very dangerous. Course, that tends to be a bit of overkill
As mentioned the chunky salsa effect of a regular physical-dmg type grenade in an enclosed space, such as a hallway in a building, can be very dangerous. Course, that tends to be a bit of overkill
I've run into a similar problem when dealing with a party all to willing to shoot their way to the street corner for a samich.
Thus I decided that any facility that has the cash to hire/train/equip their own security forces, also has the cash to put one Ares Alpha loaded with APDS in a lock-box in the security office. Sure if the players fight smart then they stand a chance of looting a few rounds of premium ammo, but with any luck they'll be to paranoid about whom to use it on they won't use any.
Thus I decided that any facility that has the cash to hire/train/equip their own security forces, also has the cash to put one Ares Alpha loaded with APDS in a lock-box in the security office. Sure if the players fight smart then they stand a chance of looting a few rounds of premium ammo, but with any luck they'll be to paranoid about whom to use it on they won't use any.
Ingram Smartgun firing EX-Ex in 3-round bursts: 12S at zero recoil, quite affordable for anyone serious about their security.
| QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Jan 15 2005, 05:24 PM) |
| I know I going to regret this, but how could a player come up 12 w/o mil or sec armor? |
Light security armor at 6/4 plus FFBA at 2/1 (halved) with a lined coat (4/2) thrown over it. If you ask me (and the guys I run with), security armor shouldn't be any less secure just because you decide to wear a duster with it. But then again, we picture is as semirigid interconnected plates, like the stuff Konoko is wearing on the Oni video game cover. (Hell, I even forgot about the helmet and forearm guards, but that would be twinktacular.)
EDIT: Oops. I just saw that thing about w/o mil OR SEC ARMOR. That'll teach me to post and look at porn at the same time. Too much distraction.
| QUOTE |
| Light security armor at 6/4 plus FFBA at 2/1 (halved) with a lined coat (4/2) thrown over it. |
That's still only 10/5. Once again, subsequent layers are rounded down. Full body FFBA layers as 2/0, and the lined coat is 2/1. The character would also need a Quickness of at least 9 not to take any penalties.
As I said: "If you ask me (and the guys I run with), security armor shouldn't be any less secure just because you decide to wear a duster with it." We don't half the sec armor or the coat. 2(FFBA)+6(Sec)+4(Coat)= 12.
Realistically, neither the coat nor the sec armor is going to be weaker just because you're wearing them togther.
Realistically, neither the coat nor the sec armor is going to be weaker just because you're wearing them togther.
That's fine, and relatively reasonable, but it is a house rule.
Though another way to think of it is: if the bullet can pierce the security armour, that cute jacket you've got over it isn't going to help much either!
JaronK
JaronK
Meh, it could slow the bullet down a bit...
Not with the bullets I prefer to use on security armor...
Edit: Of course, there is a reason my team prefers me to play a mage instead of a street sam. Apparently, I do less damage to large areas as a mage with rocket launchers and every spell in the book than as a street sam with standard equipment, a panther, and a few kilos of C12.
Edit: Of course, there is a reason my team prefers me to play a mage instead of a street sam. Apparently, I do less damage to large areas as a mage with rocket launchers and every spell in the book than as a street sam with standard equipment, a panther, and a few kilos of C12.
Kinda like the MDC/SDC thing that RIFTS has got.
Besides like many have pointed out, Called Shots to bypass armour really gets rid of all that armour fuss and by it works against all those pesky Military Armour.
Besides like many have pointed out, Called Shots to bypass armour really gets rid of all that armour fuss and by it works against all those pesky Military Armour.
A called shot to bypass hardened armour doesn't make much sense to me. But then I wouldn't run it that they bypass armour in the first place.
That rule is kinda wankatronic. If a guy is clad in head-to-toe armor, you can't really bypass it. If his head is sticking out, fine, groovy. Blow his teeth out the back of his neck. But the armor that's on the body part you're capping should still apply.
By the wording in the Canon FAQ, you can bypass even the Armour spell and the built-in armour that critters have and it doesn't get anymore covered than that.
Exactly. Wankatronic.
Yeah I 100% disagree with the FAQ on this one.
Hmm, I breezed through the Errata and FAQ on shadowrunrpg.com, and didn't see the modified layering rules. Can I get a confirmation on the change?
It's in the errata on the SR website.
| QUOTE |
Page 51: Form-Fitted Body Armor Add to the end of the last sentence of the second paragraph the phrase: "...nor does it count against any Quickness tests (p. 285, SR3). |
and the stuff about called shots bypassing armour (as one of the options you can pick for a called shot) is in the Combat section of the FAQ:
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/faq.shtml
| QUOTE |
Do called shots in ranged combat bypass armor, like they can in melee combat? When handling called shots, for either melee or ranged combat, gamemasters should use the rules on p. 114, SR3 (ie., calling a shot is a Free Action, called shots receive a +4 target number modifier, etc) along with the following rules. The player calling the shot can choose one result from the following three options: The Damage Code is increased by one Level (as stated on p. 114, SR3). The target's regular armor applies. The attack bypasses the target's armor. In this case, the attack's Damage Code is not modified, but the Power is not reduced by armor bonuses. (Note that the attacker can simply choose a location on the target that is less armored, rather than bypassing the armor completely, so that only the armor in that location applies). Target a smaller part of a larger target (such as the tires on a vehicle). |
| QUOTE |
| The attack bypasses the target's armor. In this case, the attack's Damage Code is not modified, but the Power is not reduced by armor bonuses. (Note that the attacker can simply choose a location on the target that is less armored, rather than bypassing the armor completely, so that only the armor in that location applies). |
When given a choice between bypassing armor completely and picking a spot that's less armored, who WOULDN'T bypass all armor? Am I reading this wrong? Why give options like that?
I don't know. I assume/hope they're trying to imply that armour in the location you're calling the shot on should still apply no matter what. If you could only pick general areas like arms/head/torso/legs, then that'd be fairly workable at least.
There is no armor location! No armor in canon SR functions on a location basis. A vest does not give you 4 points of armor on your chest; it gives you four points of armor, period. You cannot hit him in the arm and bypass armor.
I think that means to say that bypassing armor is not an all or nothing deal. The attacker can choose how much armor to bypass with a called shot, incase you don't want to kill the guy outright.
I know there are no hit locations for armour, but if people were messing around with called shots, rather than just allowing every called shot to bypass ALL armour, I'd probably run it something like that. Decide which locations (locations being the same as for cyber armour) have how much armour each and then go from there. A house rule of course. No, in fact I would probably just throw out called shots altogether, much easier that way!
Or at least remove option 2 from the list, the other two are fine.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| There is no armor location! No armor in canon SR functions on a location basis. A vest does not give you 4 points of armor on your chest; it gives you four points of armor, period. You cannot hit him in the arm and bypass armor. |
So a guy in a 5/3 armored jacket who recieves a called shot in the head still gets the 5/3 armor rating? (note that the called shot was used to hit the head and not the rest of his body.) I don't think so. It's and armored jakcet, not an armored bodystocking. Not an armored hoodie.
You can't call shot to hit the head in the first place precisely because there is no hit location. You can call shot to bypass armour, increase damage.
You can Call Shot, but you can call the shot to a specific location. The location is moot and is not up to you.
You can Call Shot, but you can call the shot to a specific location. The location is moot and is not up to you.
| QUOTE |
| Target a smaller part of a larger target (such as the tires on a vehicle). |
Or... say... Someone's unarmored head. Since a jacket doesn't cover your head. Which is why they sell helmets separately.
No, no, no! You can't call shots to the head. End of story. Shadowrun does not allow this at all.
Also, hyzmarca is wrong. You cannot choose how much to bypass. There are houserules for this, but that is something else entirely. Purely within canon, you can't do anything but take a shot through all the armor or take a shot at +4 TN through no armor.
Also, hyzmarca is wrong. You cannot choose how much to bypass. There are houserules for this, but that is something else entirely. Purely within canon, you can't do anything but take a shot through all the armor or take a shot at +4 TN through no armor.
Then what is it, do you think, that stages the damage up a level when you call a shot? What imposes the +4 TN? You're aiming for a smaller, more vulnerable part of the body, like someone's melon. Which has less armor.
EDIT:
EDIT:
| QUOTE |
| (Note that the attacker can simply choose a location on the target that is less armored, rather than bypassing the armor completely, so that only the armor in that location applies). |
Since that's from the errata and it says that you CAN choose a location that is less armored, I think that would make it canon, don't you?
| QUOTE (Smiley) | ||
So a guy in a 5/3 armored jacket who recieves a called shot in the head still gets the 5/3 armor rating? (note that the called shot was used to hit the head and not the rest of his body.) I don't think so. It's and armored jakcet, not an armored bodystocking. Not an armored hoodie. |
Great.
<Will Robinson voice> "Here we go again...." </Will Robinson voice>
[ Spoiler ]
I haven't bothered with most of the other threads on this topic, but why can you call a shot to hit a vehicle's tires but not a person's head?
[ Spoiler ]
Oh, and
It just seems like we don't use enough smilies anymore...
I think kevyn's right about the smilies. Seems like I'm somehow more guilty than anyone, given the handle...
Also, AMEN to the tires/head comment.
Also, AMEN to the tires/head comment.
The third option is there to allow you to selectively target small objects. For example, can you shoot an apple off of someone's head? William Tell could, but he suffered a +4 TN penalty for the attack test.
When you used Called Shots to increase the damage level you're basically aiming for a known weak spot, say dead centre on the heart or perhaps the nads.... I've never been shot there but I suppose a shot to the nads would could as increasing the damage code.
When you call a shot to bypass armour, you're doing the same thing but trying to put the bullet(s) into a location without armour, or in the case of soemone with head-to-toe coverage you're attempting to hit a slightly less armoured location - for example the arm on someone with an armoured shirt underneath an armoured vest.
When you used Called Shots to increase the damage level you're basically aiming for a known weak spot, say dead centre on the heart or perhaps the nads.... I've never been shot there but I suppose a shot to the nads would could as increasing the damage code.
When you call a shot to bypass armour, you're doing the same thing but trying to put the bullet(s) into a location without armour, or in the case of soemone with head-to-toe coverage you're attempting to hit a slightly less armoured location - for example the arm on someone with an armoured shirt underneath an armoured vest.
| QUOTE |
| Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:39:00 -0700 Cc: info@shadowrunrpg.com Subject: Re: Re: Shadowrun Called Shot to Helmets Hi Brian and Aaron, Oh, I'm so glad you guys are smart! There are a lot of folks that just don't see what you see, and I didn't want to confuse anyone by pointing it out. OK, here we go. There are two methods for this. First method: See Man and Machine, page 35, where it describes 5 locations for cyberlimb body plating (also called "Armor" for cyberlimbs) as Arms, Legs, Front Torso, Rear Torso, and Skull. It takes 5 points of body plating (armor) for the Skull to count as one overall point of armor for the whole body. Since the Armor Helmet and Secure Helmet both provide 1 overall point of ballistic armor for the whole body, they should count for at least an individual rating of 5 points, and no more than 9, as protection for the skull. So, the simple calculation of helmet rating for protection to the skull is at least 5 ballistic. If you wanted to average 5 and 9, you might decide 7 points of protection, but I don't think that either 5 or 7 is very precise. Second method: Assume we cover a character completely in a special material that I call "7 ballistic". Part of this material is formed as a helmet, part as worn armor. Assume that when the "7 ballistic" material is worn all over the body that it provides 7 points of ballistic armor. Anywhere your shot hits, the body is protected by 7 points of ballistic armor. Assume I take off the helmet. Now, how much overall armor protection does the character get? Let's say it's 6 points of overall protection. But if we somehow know that a shot is hitting the rear torso, we know that it's hitting "7 ballistic" armor, because "7 ballistic material" is on the rear torso. Overall the helmet provides 1 point of ballistic, but if we know that a shot is hitting the head, it's hitting the "7 ballistic material" and that's 7 points of protection. This "special material" I'm describing is actually the material of a suit of Medium Security Armor & Helmet. With this method, we make an evaluation of what the material rating would be if it covered the whole body. That's the rating we use if we know a shot is striking a body part protected by that material. We actually end of with two ways of calculating the protection of a Security Helmet this way. The first is calculating it with the lightest armor it's made to go with. In which case a 1/2 Security Helmet provides 7/6 protection to the head. The second is keeping track of what kind of suit the Security Helmet actually came with, so if it came with Heavy Security armor then the helmet provides 8/7 to the skull. You choose which feels better for your group. One might argue that a Security Helmet is more rigid than the rest of the suit, and thus provides more than 6 or 7 points of Impact protection, but I usually don't go that far. I hope this helps! Signed, ShadowFaq ----- Original Message ----- To: "ShadowFaq" <ShadowFaq@comcast.net> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 7:32 PM Subject: Fwd: Re: Shadowrun Called Shot in Ranged Combat (fwd) > How do you determine the localized armor rating of, say a helmet? If the > helmet gives +1/+2 rating to a player's overall armor rating, how much > does it help his/her head in a called shot? The numbers logically can't be > the same... > > > Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:44:09 -0700 > From: ShadowFaq <ShadowFaq@comcast.net> > Cc: info@shadowrunrpg.com > Subject: Re: Shadowrun Called Shot in Ranged Combat > > Hi Aaron, > Yes, the Cannon Companion has Called Shot rules for melee combat that > allows > you to use only the armor in the targeted location. There are also Called > Shot rules in Man and Machine (page 106) for ranged weapons that deliver > drugs (like Narcoject or Capsule rounds) which use only the armor in the > targeted location. > > The Shadowrun Faq (www.ShadowrunRPG.com/resources/faq.shtml) describes > Called Shot rules for general ranged weapons (like your pistol) that, as > an > option, lets you use only the armor in the targeted location. > > With these FAQ called shot rules, the player can choose one of the > following: > a) Use the called shot to raise the damage by one level, and apply all > armor > (7 in your example) > or > b) Use the called shot to *not* raise the damage level, but apply *only* > the > armor in the targeted location (1 in your example) > or > c) Use the called shot to achieve a particular objective. E.g. shooting a > tire on a vehicle, shooting out a headlight, or shooting the leg of a > fleeing suspect to keep him from running. In these cases extra successes > should not stage up damage to the overall vehicle or person, but should > instead be an indication of achieving better success with your particular > objective. > > Signed, > ShadowFaq > > ----- Original Message ----- > To: "ShadowFaq" <ShadowFaq@comcast.net> > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 4:23 AM > Subject: Re: shadowrun cannon companion > > > lol ok heres another dilema.in a test game i wanted to > use a called shot to an armored head of a baddie.he > had and armor value of 7/7 (6/5+ helmet of +1/2).in > the cannon companion it losts for advanced melee > combat that armor for the targeted location > protects.in this case head IE the +1/2. > now heres my question.if with a pistol or other ranged > weapon when i target the head.what armor value would > it have?the +1 only or the full 7. > thanks > Aaron |
I copied this from a previous thread - someone had asked ShadowFAQ about this and this was the responce. It states that, like cyberlimb armour, the 5/3 provided by an armoured jacket is a composite value, so the 7/7 privided by Sec armour is likewise a composite value and applies to the whole body - anywhere there's coverage gets the full value.
This is why I don't allow armour stacking in my games. I allow people to wear multiple pieces of armour, simply to provide coverage against called shots to bypass armour (twin Smartguns across the legs at knee height won't kill, but they'll get you a 'technical kill' which is enough).
It's up to me as the GM, when one of my players calls a shot, where the exact shot hit. Sure, 99% of the time when someone bypasses armour they're going into the head, since all NPC's are smart enough to wear armoured trousers as well as a jacket or long coat. But that's how I describe it. My players don't get to chose where it's going, they simply state which option for Called Shot they're intending to use.
I'm not saying it's a great system, as having no hit locations means it's very abstract, but it works. And it does give you some options.
As a House Rule, I've gone so far as to give helmets a second set of armour ratings - those which apply when the head itself it shot at a not the whole body. This is my take on what ShadowFAQ says in the above mails. So, a Security Helmet (from a Sec suit) looks like this:
Security Helmet: Ballistic +1(4), Impact +2(5)
So, if one of my players wears the helmet, their overall protection gets the normal plus values, but should a called shot dictate it should hit the head (Called Shot to lesser armoured location), then the shot (ranged or melee) is resisted using 4/5 armour. It seems to work well, and it makes helmets worth wearing again.
Q.E.D.
Cheers, Canid. Thanks.
Cheers, Canid. Thanks.
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