Racial priorities, Wow! Options

[James McMurray]

Is it just me or are the priority levels for creating characters off on the races. Trolls and dwarves are two of the best race (trolls for combat brutes and dwarves for just about everything). But these races have priority levels lower than or equal to elves (a racce that's nice for conjurers and faces, but not much else). Am I missing something? Some erratta, rule that will hurt them, etc.?

[James McMurray]

Right after I hit post I remembered the karma pool ratios. But is that enough to balance such beefy stats for the metahumans? It won't even be a really noticabl factor until several runs down the line.

[Walknuki]

Trolls and Dwarves also need special made equipment (weapons, armor, and vehicles) that adds to the cost.

Dwarves have a *2 running multiplyer, meaning their faster co-runners are always waiting for them to catch up.

Trolls don't fit in most places. Airplanes, resteraunt booths, taxis are all squeezes for them, not to mention it's harder to sneak around when you're 8'5 feet tall.

Also being the rarest of the meta races they're more easily identifiable. Get even partially caught on a camera and there aren't 5000 people in the city that look like you. There are 5.

*edit*

Also, on elves, they're good for more then "Faces and Conjurers". They have a quickness bonus which is good for just about all fire arms.

Also they're not universally despised like the orks or the trolls. As such they could walk into a fancy resteraunt or library without getting a whole load of stares and someone with their finger on the panic button. That's good for someone who wants to meet the Johnson in a typical face style or who wants to blow the place up.

They also don't have any negative modifiers, thus they're more versitile. You don't find elves funneled into combat roles. They can be casters or deckers or riggers or sammies or faces or stealth ninjas or blow the drek out of stuffers.

[Smiley]

The cost to be and elf is an old bone of contention with our group. As much as we bitch about it, we must not not think it's that messed up or someone would have proposed a house rule. Everyone once in a while we talk about swapping the cost for elves and dwarves, but haven't done so thus far.

[cbettles]

I happen to think that elves are pricey (using the priority system) compared to every other race unless you're making a conjurer, planning on spending lots of time in the astral, or your GM makes you do a etiquete check everytime you talk to a cab driver.

That said, everybody like elves, because well, they're elves. I tend to end up with a shadowrunning group with three elves, a troll (street samurai), and a dwarf. Which makes no sense unless I'm running a game in the Tir.

Of course, its worse when I'm running a D&D game. I don't know why it is, but people just like elves. The hardest thing is to get someone to play a human. Even with the karma pool bonus, which is very nice, they always seem to be under represented in a Shadowrun game.

Anyone else have the same problem, or am I just hanging around a bunch of dandelion munchers? :P

[Fortune]

The only reason elves cost more than dwarves is the 'coolness factor'. Dwarves are definitely under-priced.

[ES_Riddle]

For use outside of their primary role most of the races are overpriced. Unless you are pumping stats above the human racial max, you'd be better off from a strictly mechanical point of view by playing a human.

The opportunity cost of an elf that isn't whoring quickness or charisma is 9 build points. A human with 6 more build points in attributes (for +1 QUI and +2 CHA), bad karma, and night vision costs 1. If you want to compare a quickness 7 human to an elf who has charisma of 6 or below and a quickness of exactly 7, the elf's opportunity cost is 5 (you have to add in bonus attribute and exceptional attribute for the human).

That all goes out the window if you want to go nuts with quickness or charisma for a gun bunny, face, or similar QUI or CHA based character. In that case the elf can do something that no human can, and the cost may just be worth it.

[noneuklid]

Don't forget the -1 Signature for trolls. And that dwarf running thing really hurts in most runs- ever wonder why so many dwarves are riggers?

[cbettles]

I agree with the statement above if you're using the building point system. If you're using the priority system then the opportunity cost for an ork or dwarf, who is not magically active, is much less. For example:

Resources: A
Attributes: B
Skills: C
Race: D

If you're making a street sam, rigger, or decker you basically get a free priority spot to place on race (D). Both the dwarf and the ork offer some nice physical attribute bonuses for the street sam. and the dwarf bonus to willpower comes in handy for the rigger and the decker.

If you're power gaming, you'd be crazy not to make a dwarf or ork street sam. Sure, the human street sam's karma pool will grow a lot faster, but you'll have to survive quite a few runs to make it worthwhile.

[Kagetenshi]

Not "quite a few runs". Even if you're only gaining four karma a run, that's three runs before you're getting significant advantages over your shorter or more dentally advantaged brethren.

~J

[cbettles]

I figure that it would take a difference of 2 or 3 extra karma pool to make up for the five extra physical attributes, assuming you are an ork street sam, you would be forgoing. At 4 karma a run, that would be at least seven runs (since an ork would get an extra karma pool at 20).

[Kagetenshi]

For a streetsam, I agree. For a Rigger or pure Decker, I contend that due to the karma pool human still wins most comparisons (physical stats negligable).

~J

[James McMurray]

Even if you consider physical stats negligible, the dwarf is still a good choice for most non-combat types. That +1 willpower is more drain resistance, dumpshock resistance, and countless other things that target willpower. Heck, a rigger has to resist damage with willpower (IIRC) every time a drone he's riding takes a serious wound.

[Kagetenshi]

One point of Willpower is negligable in my experience; Rigger dumpshock is Powerful enough that it's not terribly resistible, and Control Pool with the vehicle dodge rules cut down on the number of times it will occur. As compared to that, the opportunity to reroll any single test other than a botch (which everyone can do) and still be able to do it again (which only Humans without Bad Karma will be able to do) is much more powerful.

And hey, don't like karma pool? Bad Karma flaw. Now you're back at the same karma level, you spend two points on Bonus Attribute Point: Willpower, and you've got three more points to spend on a free edge like Connected. Sounds like a better deal than some unimportant physical stats, one point of Willpower, and a nontrivial additional expense to most gear plus a downright awful running multiplier.

~J

[cbettles]

I agree that the physical stats are not the most important things for a decker or a rigger, but I think of plenty of times when a couple of extra points in body have come in handy.

Thanks for the comments! 8)

[Ed Simons]

[Fortune]

Um, no. Dwarves get all bonuses, and get an additional +1 (for a total of 4) compared to elves.

[kevyn668]

[toturi]

This has been debated back and forth since I've been a newb here at the Forums. Elves are been proven to be the most overcosted methumans.

[Paul]

Heh. Am I the only guy who just can't seem to get metahumans in his games? My players just gravitate towards humans. A few trolls, a few dwarves, a few orks, and fewer elves.

[ES_Riddle]

[Fix-it]

I don't like elves.

Dwarves and Orks rock the house though.

[Wounded Ronin]

I got tired of elves back when I was, like, in Middle School. So now I actually favor humans.

[Glyph]

[toturi]

Yes, but sometimes you want a dwarf because those specific bonuses let you do things a normal human can't do and you don't have to lose a few build points.