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James McMurray
Is it just me or are the priority levels for creating characters off on the races. Trolls and dwarves are two of the best race (trolls for combat brutes and dwarves for just about everything). But these races have priority levels lower than or equal to elves (a racce that's nice for conjurers and faces, but not much else). Am I missing something? Some erratta, rule that will hurt them, etc.?
James McMurray
Right after I hit post I remembered the karma pool ratios. But is that enough to balance such beefy stats for the metahumans? It won't even be a really noticabl factor until several runs down the line.
Walknuki
Trolls and Dwarves also need special made equipment (weapons, armor, and vehicles) that adds to the cost.

Dwarves have a *2 running multiplyer, meaning their faster co-runners are always waiting for them to catch up.

Trolls don't fit in most places. Airplanes, resteraunt booths, taxis are all squeezes for them, not to mention it's harder to sneak around when you're 8'5 feet tall.

Also being the rarest of the meta races they're more easily identifiable. Get even partially caught on a camera and there aren't 5000 people in the city that look like you. There are 5.

*edit*

Also, on elves, they're good for more then "Faces and Conjurers". They have a quickness bonus which is good for just about all fire arms.

Also they're not universally despised like the orks or the trolls. As such they could walk into a fancy resteraunt or library without getting a whole load of stares and someone with their finger on the panic button. That's good for someone who wants to meet the Johnson in a typical face style or who wants to blow the place up.

They also don't have any negative modifiers, thus they're more versitile. You don't find elves funneled into combat roles. They can be casters or deckers or riggers or sammies or faces or stealth ninjas or blow the drek out of stuffers.
Smiley
The cost to be and elf is an old bone of contention with our group. As much as we bitch about it, we must not not think it's that messed up or someone would have proposed a house rule. Everyone once in a while we talk about swapping the cost for elves and dwarves, but haven't done so thus far.
cbettles
I happen to think that elves are pricey (using the priority system) compared to every other race unless you're making a conjurer, planning on spending lots of time in the astral, or your GM makes you do a etiquete check everytime you talk to a cab driver.

That said, everybody like elves, because well, they're elves. I tend to end up with a shadowrunning group with three elves, a troll (street samurai), and a dwarf. Which makes no sense unless I'm running a game in the Tir.

Of course, its worse when I'm running a D&D game. I don't know why it is, but people just like elves. The hardest thing is to get someone to play a human. Even with the karma pool bonus, which is very nice, they always seem to be under represented in a Shadowrun game.

Anyone else have the same problem, or am I just hanging around a bunch of dandelion munchers? nyahnyah.gif
Fortune
The only reason elves cost more than dwarves is the 'coolness factor'. Dwarves are definitely under-priced.
ES_Riddle
For use outside of their primary role most of the races are overpriced. Unless you are pumping stats above the human racial max, you'd be better off from a strictly mechanical point of view by playing a human.

The opportunity cost of an elf that isn't whoring quickness or charisma is 9 build points. A human with 6 more build points in attributes (for +1 QUI and +2 CHA), bad karma, and night vision costs 1. If you want to compare a quickness 7 human to an elf who has charisma of 6 or below and a quickness of exactly 7, the elf's opportunity cost is 5 (you have to add in bonus attribute and exceptional attribute for the human).

That all goes out the window if you want to go nuts with quickness or charisma for a gun bunny, face, or similar QUI or CHA based character. In that case the elf can do something that no human can, and the cost may just be worth it.
noneuklid
Don't forget the -1 Signature for trolls. And that dwarf running thing really hurts in most runs- ever wonder why so many dwarves are riggers?
cbettles
I agree with the statement above if you're using the building point system. If you're using the priority system then the opportunity cost for an ork or dwarf, who is not magically active, is much less. For example:

Resources: A
Attributes: B
Skills: C
Race: D

If you're making a street sam, rigger, or decker you basically get a free priority spot to place on race (D). Both the dwarf and the ork offer some nice physical attribute bonuses for the street sam. and the dwarf bonus to willpower comes in handy for the rigger and the decker.

If you're power gaming, you'd be crazy not to make a dwarf or ork street sam. Sure, the human street sam's karma pool will grow a lot faster, but you'll have to survive quite a few runs to make it worthwhile.
Kagetenshi
Not "quite a few runs". Even if you're only gaining four karma a run, that's three runs before you're getting significant advantages over your shorter or more dentally advantaged brethren.

~J
cbettles
I figure that it would take a difference of 2 or 3 extra karma pool to make up for the five extra physical attributes, assuming you are an ork street sam, you would be forgoing. At 4 karma a run, that would be at least seven runs (since an ork would get an extra karma pool at 20).
Kagetenshi
For a streetsam, I agree. For a Rigger or pure Decker, I contend that due to the karma pool human still wins most comparisons (physical stats negligable).

~J
James McMurray
Even if you consider physical stats negligible, the dwarf is still a good choice for most non-combat types. That +1 willpower is more drain resistance, dumpshock resistance, and countless other things that target willpower. Heck, a rigger has to resist damage with willpower (IIRC) every time a drone he's riding takes a serious wound.
Kagetenshi
One point of Willpower is negligable in my experience; Rigger dumpshock is Powerful enough that it's not terribly resistible, and Control Pool with the vehicle dodge rules cut down on the number of times it will occur. As compared to that, the opportunity to reroll any single test other than a botch (which everyone can do) and still be able to do it again (which only Humans without Bad Karma will be able to do) is much more powerful.

And hey, don't like karma pool? Bad Karma flaw. Now you're back at the same karma level, you spend two points on Bonus Attribute Point: Willpower, and you've got three more points to spend on a free edge like Connected. Sounds like a better deal than some unimportant physical stats, one point of Willpower, and a nontrivial additional expense to most gear plus a downright awful running multiplier.

~J
cbettles
I agree that the physical stats are not the most important things for a decker or a rigger, but I think of plenty of times when a couple of extra points in body have come in handy.

Thanks for the comments! cool.gif
Ed Simons
QUOTE (Fortune)
The only reason elves cost more than dwarves is the 'coolness factor'. Dwarves are definitely under-priced.

Based on my experience as both player and GM, it's the elves that are underpriced. I counted up all the PCs from all the games, and found that the most popular was elves, who were just over 1/3 of PCs. Second place was humans at about another third. The final third was everything else put together, with ork coming in a distant third overall.

And sure, there's the coolness factor, but elves are the only metahumans to get all bonuses.
Fortune
Um, no. Dwarves get all bonuses, and get an additional +1 (for a total of 4) compared to elves.
kevyn668
QUOTE (Ed Simons)
QUOTE (Fortune)
The only reason elves cost more than dwarves is the 'coolness factor'. Dwarves are definitely under-priced.

Based on my experience as both player and GM, it's the elves that are underpriced. I counted up all the PCs from all the games, and found that the most popular was elves, who were just over 1/3 of PCs. Second place was humans at about another third. The final third was everything else put together, with ork coming in a distant third overall.

And sure, there's the coolness factor, but elves are the only metahumans to get all bonuses.

People like elves b/c they're elves. smile.gif

It's true that they only get bonuses but they also get the fewest bonuses.

Most min/maxers would take the Ork mods over the Elf's and since social penalties are hit or miss when it comes to enforcement (depending on the GM) there's no IC reason not to take advantage of those mods.

For the record, I've only played humans and elves. Mostly humans.

Out of curiosity, what was the size of your subject pool?
toturi
This has been debated back and forth since I've been a newb here at the Forums. Elves are been proven to be the most overcosted methumans.
Paul
Heh. Am I the only guy who just can't seem to get metahumans in his games? My players just gravitate towards humans. A few trolls, a few dwarves, a few orks, and fewer elves.
ES_Riddle
QUOTE (Ed Simons)
I counted up all the PCs from all the games, and found that the most popular was elves, who were just over 1/3 of PCs. Second place was humans at about another third. The final third was everything else put together, with ork coming in a distant third overall.

I don't think a single gaming group is a big enough sample to really judge how common the race choices are. In my gaming group, for example, humans and orks are the most common, elves are somewhat uncommon, and trolls and dwarves are downright rare.
Fix-it
I don't like elves.

Dwarves and Orks rock the house though.
Wounded Ronin
I got tired of elves back when I was, like, in Middle School. So now I actually favor humans.
Glyph
QUOTE (toturi)
This has been debated back and forth since I've been a newb here at the Forums. Elves are been proven to be the most overcosted methumans.

Purely point-wise, yeah. But like E S Riddle said, sometimes you want an elf because those specific bonuses let you do things a normal human can't do, which is worth losing a few build points over.
toturi
Yes, but sometimes you want a dwarf because those specific bonuses let you do things a normal human can't do and you don't have to lose a few build points.
Slash_Thompson
I personally found that my most popular race choices in my group were far and away Troll, followed by ... well, human I guess. since nothing else is standing out as common.

as far as my personal pc's go (of which I've used precious few) they're almost all human. side effect of the build point system, I guess. since that or sum-to-ten are the two systems I use most often (both of which slightly advantage the human race choice)
DocMortand
Kinda wierd in my group - We have a good mix of everything - except elves. Not an elf to be found, but 2 orks, 2 dwarves, 2 trolls, 3-4 humans...

In the group that I played in I think there was a sum total of 1 elf...mostly humans and trolls with the occasional ork and dwarf.
DrJest
I have to say, I've only ever played one elf in my career... come to that, only one ork (ah, good old Remy... the immaculately dapper and elegant Cajun houngan smile.gif )... and I don't think I've ever played a dwarf or troll. Mostly I play humans, just a personal preference thing I suppose.
cbettles
Hey, Dr. Jest, you didn't used to play in Spokane did you?
The White Dwarf
Its not always comparable to use bp cost for each racial advantage. Sure, you can get lowlight vision with an edge, but now you have 1 less edge available to use on something else.

Which race is best depends soley on 2 things: what youre trying to do, and what youre trying to portray. If you write-up a background where your char is from the Tir, elf looks good. If youre making a guy that needs willpower 8, dwarf seems like a good idea.

Elves are costly, but have virtually no drawbacks, and 1 quickness also lets you move faster and wear more armor which are two often overlooked things besides the typical combat pool and initiative mods. And yes, dwarves get a lot of bonuses for the price, but the move issue can be a serious drawback, in addition to being short. It depends how much you pay attention to your characters setting as a group.

The additional karma pool for human is great, but if youre not failing tests its not as useful. I know everyone fails tests, but if you make a character that has (random example) skills of 6+ in everything hes rolling, odds of *needing* karma go down. Which again means that different builds favor different races; characters with a wider variety of moderate range skills get more mileage out of karma.

In the end, its 50% personal choice and 50% game mechanics. Theres very few characters that actually require and revolve around 1 race or another. The priority system is fairly harsh on the matter since by using race you lose out in other areas, but the build point costs are fairly in line.
U_Fester
90% of our group is human with 10% going to dwarves and trolls combined. We had one elf, but do to infighting over killing a target he did not make it very long.

I also think that dwarves should be higher. If I had to choose, I would switch dwarf with orc and keep elf and troll where they are. Elf and dwarf as C and orc and troll as D.
Fortune
QUOTE
If I had to choose, I would switch dwarf with orc and keep elf and troll where they are. Elf and dwarf as C and orc and troll as D.


Um, dwarves and orks are already the same priority (and BP cost) in canon - D (5 BP). Switching them would do Sweet FA. I'd switch dwarves with elves, making elves and orks priority D (5 BP), and dwarves and trolls priority C (10 BP).
kevyn668
There's no way I'd give Trolls Priority D. No way.
Jrayjoker
Troll, Elf, Dwarf all should be at C as far as I am concerned,and should have the same BP cost
U_Fester
QUOTE (Fortune)
Um, dwarves and orks are already the same priority (and BP cost) in canon - D (5 BP).

Thanks for reminding me. Am at work and was trying to recall between sql skripts.
Fortune
QUOTE
Troll, Elf, Dwarf all should be at C as far as I am concerned,and should have the same BP cost


What's your reasoning for leaving orks as the cheaper odd man out?

Might as well make all the non-human races the same priority.
Jrayjoker
The orc is more balanced and less munchkiny than any of the other races IMO. Not a tank, not pretty enough to be a face, usually, has more negatives due to racism than dwarves.
MagicalGirlPrettyMatt
Wow. My group is so human-biased it's not even funny. We have one player that perpetually likes to make Dwarves, but besides that it's only an elf or a troll every now and then. I myself have only played a meta once, which was a troll sammy ex-Urban Brawler, but in general I've always found that with edges and flaws, and a good piece of cyber or bioware you can almost invariably twink out a human just as much as you could a dwarf or an elf without the cost of build points or, better yet (especially as our runs tend to be high-risk, high-karma-payout), the drop in karma pool.

Of course, most players in my group don't play the same character often enough for karma pool to really come into effect to the point where it unbalances the games, but for the player that likes to run the same character for months at a time, I'll always recommend humans.
psykotisk_overlegen
Apart from a single (rahter silly) character of mine that lasted one game. I've only seen one elf-character in any SR group I've played in.

If I compare the demographics of New Seattle and SoE with the groups I've been in there are a lot more trolls, and a few too many dwarves. Orks and humans go about okay and elves are extremely rare.

For some reason a lot of gamers I know would always make human characters, if given the choice. We use the point-system though, so making humans conserve points as well as giving karma pool. In the priority system orks and dwarves are a lot more tempting when creating mundanes.

Elves seem overpriced to me.
If anything I'd reduce elves to dwarf/ork price/priority
Dexy
QUOTE (The White Dwarf)
The additional karma pool for human is great, but if youre not failing tests its not as useful. 

It's pretty useful if you want to do things like ambush someone, stage down damage, stage up damage, win melees against competent opponents, or the like. Basically, any situation where the number of successes you roll is relevant, rather than the mere fact of success.
Ed Simons
QUOTE (kevyn668)
Out of curiosity, what was the size of your subject pool?

Well, now that I've gotten my data recovered, it turns out that I misremembered slightly.

13 Humans
12 Elves
4 Orks
3 Dwarves
2 Shapeshifters
1 Troll

That's in 5 different groups run by 3 different people.

Half those Orks were played by me.
Ed Simons
QUOTE (Fortune)
Um, no. Dwarves get all bonuses, and get an additional +1 (for a total of 4) compared to elves.

If you only look at base stats.

Dwarves take their hits on equipment costs and movement.
Fortune
Which is compensated for with the extra +1 to attributes. There's still no reason for elves to cost 5 BP more though.
Kagetenshi
I contend that the running multiplier is a pretty big deal. A fast Elf (7 Quickness) can almost keep pace with an insanely fast Dwarf (11 Quickness) when it comes to a brisk run.

Sure, Body helps Athletics, but every success on the Athletics test means 2/3 as much as it does for everyone else.

~J
TeOdio
Believe it or not, but the racial priority was not intended to make a certain set of attribute bonuses (and penalties) cost more or less. Crack open any book w/ a population distribution and you'll see that that there it usually breaks down like so:
Human: highest percentile
Ork: next highest, sometimes Dwarf
Dwarf: 3rd Highest percentile
Elf or Troll: jockeying for 4th and 5th.
The exceptions to this are the areas where Elves are a predominant segment of the population. The Manitou are mostly elves, Quebec, the Tir, and the Salish all have high elvan population centers, but most of the UCAS (Seattle Excluded oddly enough) follow the above trend. I really don't see that big of advantages one way or the other honestly. In ShadowRun, iI feel the Metahuman penalty as it were, is to keep with the vibe that Humans still make up the majority, and you get a lousy lot in life if you are considered Monstrous(Troll) or Woodsy (Elf), ie less opportunities to learn skills and acquire wealth.
I'd say if your campaign was focused in an area with larger Elvan populations like the Tir, or for my German speaking friends, a large Troll population like the Black Forest, change up the priority system to match.
Just my 2 nuyen.gif worth chummers.
nuyen.gif nuyen.gif nuyen.gif
ShortBusFury
QUOTE
Believe it or not, but the racial priority was not intended to make a certain set of attribute bonuses (and penalties) cost more or less. Crack open any book w/ a population distribution...


That's actually a pretty good observation and an interesting thought.
Fortune
But only part of the reason, if that, considering that all non human races were originally Priority A.
Critias
QUOTE (toturi)
This has been debated back and forth since I've been a newb here at the Forums. Elves are been proven to be the most overcosted methumans.

Really? If it's been proven so definatively, why's it been debated back and forth for so long, and obvious still a hot topic?
Dexy
QUOTE (Fortune)
But only part of the reason, if that, considering that all non human races were originally Priority A.

What are the population ratios for Seattle? And if the Priority System is meant to reflect demographics, shouldn't it reflect the demographics of the game's primary setting?
fistandantilus4.0
I agree that the racial priorities is more a matter of demographics more than anything else. kind of a way of enforcing their idea of the population mix. The only thing that bothers me is having to pay more points for being a meta-variant.If an Oni is a japanese ork, i doesn't make any sense to burn more points just because your ork happens to be born somewhere other than North America. Most of the meta-variants are still pretty balanced one way or another.
I actually had a player that wanted to play a gnome Otaku for the Willpower bonus. Didn't let him.
Funny thing, I've never had a player with a troll character, and I've been playing shadowrun for... well a while anyways. one Cyclops though. Name was Uno.
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