 Regen, Is it balanced as a physad power? |
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 Jan 17 2005, 08:51 AM
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#51
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Canon Companion  Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187  |
It would normally work all the time. It is only useful when you are injured. The ability should be working all the time, but not doing anything useful when you are uninjured. |
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Jan 17 2005, 09:07 AM
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#52
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Ok, then I'll once again re-word the question.
Can you give me an example of when the Geas would cause the Regeneration Power to fail to heal the wounds that a character has? |
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Jan 17 2005, 09:17 AM
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#53
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Non wound Attribute Damage. Attribute damage is usually incurred through Wound Effects which I think should be removed by Regeneration. Using the Optional Rules from T:WL, you can simply applying Stress without wounds. QED, apply Attribute damage in the form of Stress without wounds.
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Jan 17 2005, 10:08 AM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 190 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,787 |
Upon due thought, the power should cost at least 5 power points after Geas. Regeneration is one of the main attractions of playing a shapeshifter, and making it a physad power seems wrong to me somehow.
Or make a Mage-path adept with a custom heal spell, range of self. |
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Jan 17 2005, 10:22 AM
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#55
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You may think it should be removed by regen, but it isn't canon.
~J |
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Jan 17 2005, 10:50 AM
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#56
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
OK, by the wording in Critters, all damage is removed, to use the exact wording. So even Attribute damage is also removed. By the book, Attribute damage is removed by regeneration. Poor choice of words for my previous post. So apply damage in the form of Stress when the subject is without injury.
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Jan 17 2005, 11:11 AM
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#57
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Nope. Attributes are stressed and have wound effects, they do not take damage. Damage is either Light, Moderate, Serious, or Deadly. ~J |
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Jan 17 2005, 11:16 AM
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#58
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
What damage? If all Attribute damage is removed by the Regeneration, you still haven't given an example where the Geas can cause Regeneration to fail in healing the (wounded) character.
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Jan 17 2005, 11:57 AM
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#59
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
No, Under Wound Effects - Attribute Damage. Damage. So if you inflict Attribute Damage without injury, then Regeneration cannot heal the damage.
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Jan 17 2005, 12:26 PM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 278 Joined: 28-September 04 From: The Smoke Member No.: 6,709 |
Another issue which may come up is the new Power in SOTA 64 which allows an adept to take someone else's injuries into himself. Now, imagine an adept with that power and regeneration - regardless of how he/she acquires it.
That means, in roughly 5 minutes, the adept can heal 5 characters from deadly damage to nothing and be fine himself. You have a 1 in 6 chance of it failing, so statistically 5 PC's should be safe. Since I have a shapeshifter adept who now knows about this power, this is gonna become a regular occurance for my group :o( |
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Jan 17 2005, 12:47 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Only works when injured?
Then the first wound is not regenerated because regeneration was not in effect when the wound was taken. When injured a second or subsequent time the regeneration power will heal that damage because it was active when the wound was received. |
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Jan 17 2005, 02:41 PM
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#62
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
regeneration is already limited in that it can't affect you if you're not injured. you can't take this limitation twice. additionally, the "stress without injury" thing doesn't work. attribute stress is defined as damage to the body; any damage to the body is an injury. |
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Jan 17 2005, 02:48 PM
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#63
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
My argument is that it does. Just that it has little to no practical effect! There is no limitation to Regeneration, that I can recall apart from it not being able to heal Drain. Just that it has little to no effect on someone with no injuries. |
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Jan 17 2005, 02:52 PM
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#64
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
not by canon, it doesn't. the rules only mention the effects of regen on injuries; ergo, it can't be assumed that regen is working on the body when there are no injuries. the idea the regen has any effect on the uninjured body has no basis in the rules.
i need to go do my morning run and head to work. this argument seems like an idiotic, immeasurably stupid waste of time. i'll be sure to post again, once i get to work! |
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Jan 17 2005, 03:17 PM
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#65
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
If you don't believe me, this is freely available for download on the official SR website. Only damage is mentioned. Therefore the operative word is damage. Is there a situation where damage(of any kind) can be inflicted without injuries? What is injury then? There are 2 types of injuries (p 125 SR3): namely Stun and Physical.
Stress is therefore damage. Injury, however, still remains Stun and Physical damage. With the advent of M & M, Injury has become a subset of Damage. Thus you can have damage while uninjured. Which the Regeneration power should heal EVEN while you are uninjured. BTW, Wounds and Damage is also closely related but not the same. Wounds have been generally used to describe physical damage, but not Stun. However, there has been instances of wounds being used to include Stun as well. |
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Jan 17 2005, 03:58 PM
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#66
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i submit that injury and damage are used interchangeably in SR3, and are therefore the same thing. |
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Jan 17 2005, 09:43 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 120 Joined: 3-May 04 Member No.: 6,298 |
Neutral parties can't allow geasa, only GMs can, so your point there is meaningless. Anyways, here's some things from the definition of Geasa that affect this argument: "a geas is a restriction an awakened character chooses..." [MITS page 31] Your proposed geas is not a restriction, so doesn't qualify as a geas. "Such conditions should generally break the geas about half the time" [MIST page 32] Your proposed geas does not have failing conditions about half the time. Note that it does not say "at least half the time". Most PCs spend much more than half their time undamaged. As such, this rule, which you've been trumpeting, doesn't help you. Now, they list condition geas that don't match the half-the-time rule, but yours isn't one of them. The limitation "must be injured" might be fine for some things, given that, but the fact that it is not a restriction, which is part of the very definition of a geas means you can't use it. |
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Jan 18 2005, 01:36 AM
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#68
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
What is the geas? "Must be injured". Unless you spend more than half the time injured, you are breaking the geas more than half the time. It is a greater than necessary limitation. It is a limitation, because more than half the time he has no access to use it. That the power is almost useless when he has no access does not qualify a limitation.
"a geas is a restriction an awakened character chooses..." [MitS p31] It is a restriction, so it qualifies as a geas. "Such conditions should... half the time" [MitS p32] It breaks the geas more than half the time. Being uninjured breaks the geas. It is a restriction because you can't use the power if you are uninjured. Also neutral parties can allow geasa, or other rules modifications, whether GMs allow it in their games is another matter. |
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Jan 18 2005, 01:49 AM
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#69
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
You are only breaking the Geas when trying to use the Power or Magic. If you had the Singin Geas, but weren't singing all the time, it wouldn't matter whatsoever, as long as you weren't trying to use the magic so Geased. As soon as you attempt to use the Magic without fulfilling the Geas, then you are actually breaking it.
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Jan 18 2005, 01:56 AM
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#70
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You can be breaking the geas even when not using Magic. Geas like prayer or fasting. Usually you are not praying when using Magic. If you forget to fast or had eaten, you have broken the geas. The condition needs break the geas for a certain period, not just only when you are using Magic.
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Jan 18 2005, 03:02 AM
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#71
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
You only break the Fasting Geas if you try to use magic within 24 hours of eating. If you eat, but do not use your magic for a day, you do not break the Geas.
Geasa are conditions on your magic use, not on your life as a whole. With fasting, you could eat every single day, three times a day for a week, but if you didn't try to use your magic during that time, then no Geas would be broken. |
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Jan 18 2005, 03:30 AM
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#72
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
If you break the geas, but did not use Magic, it does not mean that you do not have one(or the appropriate amount) Magic point down. You still lose your effective Magic rating, BUT if you don't use Magic, then it does not really matter.
With fasting, you could eat every single day, three times a day for a week, but if you didn't try to use your magic during that time, your geas would not matter but your effective Magic Attribute is still lowered. |
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Jan 18 2005, 05:02 AM
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#73
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That isn't actually true. Any time a geas is unfulfilled, it is broken. A talisman geas is broken anytime you lack the talisman, regardless of whether or not you try to use magic without it. ~J |
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Jan 18 2005, 05:39 AM
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#74
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it doesn't matter, regardless. SR3 does not explicitly subdivide damage into injuries, wounds, and whatever else. subdivision is one possible explanation for the choice of wording, but because it's not spelled out, you have to default to the simpler explanation--namely, that the words are used interchangably. ergo, injuries and damage are not, by canon, seperate; therefore, stress is an injury; therefore, there is never a time when the regen power won't be applied to any injury; therefore, "only when uninjured" is already a built-in limitation to the regeneration power; therefore, it is not viable as a geas to the regen power.
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Jan 18 2005, 05:47 AM
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#75
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
The only built in limitation that I know by Canon is the limitation by Quick Strike. Stress is damage but not injury. It was and has never been refered to as injury.
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