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Kyuhan
I found this power on the net, (Here's the link);

Regeneration (5, 7 or 9)
This power functions exactly as detailed in the official material. The first level is the lesser version described for Shapeshifters in their human form in the Shadowrun Companion. The second level is that described for shapeshifters in their animal form in the Shadowrun Companion (shapeshifters can update their human form'' healing capability to this level for a cost of 1.5). The third level is the version found in SR2. Shapeshifters may update their healing abilities for two points, which moves the healing powers of both shapes up one level (the human form healing at the animal rate, the animal form healing at the SR2 rate).. Common geasa include certain types of damage that can't be regenerated (fire or silver being common), or particularly vulnerable places the don't heal well (such as the Achilles tendon or the neck).


Anyhoo, does anyone think this power lacks balance in effectiveness or cost?
hyzmarca
Well, since I don't have SR2 I can honestly say that I have no idea what the different power levels mean.

As an adept power, regeneration is necessarilary unbalanced. A character with regeneration is, for all intents and purposes, immortal. There is, at best, a 1/3 change that you could possible inflict a deadly wound on someone with regeneration.
cbettles
I would be really careful with that power and only allow it in your game if the player is a very good roleplayer and the other characters in the group are high powered. I played in a game with a fox shapeshifter mage. Luckily, the player wasn't interested in power gaming and spent most of her time being generally annoying.

But that character was very cheesy and overpowered. Encounters that would pose a challenge to her would easily gack the rest of the party. At the worst, the GM could always add silver to the encounter to make it more deadly, but this adept power doesn't even have that safeguard.

In other words, I wouldn't let a character start with the power. If the character does buy it in game, it is a bit more balanced. Five power points takes a lot of saved karma, even with a geasa.

I hope that helps. nyahnyah.gif
mfb
something like this is "balanced" the same way a three-hundred pound kid on either side of a see-saw is "balanced". sure, there's equal weight on both sides, but something's gonna break if you try it.
Crimson Jack
Aye. There's no need for something that beefy, unless you have your group doing runs against Marvel Juggernaut style opponents.
Kagetenshi
I'm not sure the difference between the human-form and animal-form regeneration, but if I were to even consider it I'd make it cost at least eight power points for SR3-style regen.

~J
Fortune
I'd consider making it 6 Points, so that taking it at chargen would mean it is the Adept's only magic ability.

And I'd bitch slap the player who inevitably suggests the 'only when injured' Geas.
Kagetenshi
My thinking with the eight power points was somewhat like the Move-By-Wire IV idea, such that it only fit within six power points if geased (and would still be the only magical ability).

~J
Wounded Ronin
Crazy internet physad powers.
toturi
QUOTE (Fortune)
I'd consider making it 6 Points, so that taking it at chargen would mean it is the Adept's only magic ability.

And I'd bitch slap the player who inevitably suggests the 'only when injured' Geas.

Who will promptly bitch slap you back.

When injured qualifies as a time geas and the Canon guideline for a time geas is "50% of the time". Therefore unless he is injured for more than 50% of his life, it is allowable.
Fortune
Whatever.

'Only when injured' is quite fine for things like the Improved Ability Power, or the like. The Regeneration Power though, just like Rapid Healing, wouldn't work, nor would it even be needed, if the character was uninjured. Therefore it is a Cheese Geas™, as far as Powers like this are concerned.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Jan 17 2005, 02:15 PM)
I'd consider making it 6 Points, so that taking it at chargen would mean it is the Adept's only magic ability.

And I'd bitch slap the player who inevitably suggests the 'only when injured' Geas.

Who will promptly bitch slap you back.

When injured qualifies as a time geas and the Canon guideline for a time geas is "50% of the time". Therefore unless he is injured for more than 50% of his life, it is allowable.

Considering that the power is completely sless for the uninjured, it isn't really a limitation. Its like having having killing hands geased to "only when in melee combat".
Kagetenshi
By the same token, "the building next to you falls on you. Each individual piece deals 384D. There are forty pieces. Roll to see if you fail to regenerate" is also allowable.

~J
toturi
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
By the same token, "the building next to you falls on you. Each individual piece deals 384D. There are forty pieces. Roll to see if you fail to regenerate" is also allowable.

~J

How did you calculate that each individual piece deals 384D? How do you know that there are 40 pieces? Are those Canon?

QUOTE
Considering that the power is completely sless for the uninjured, it isn't really a limitation. Its like having having killing hands geased to "only when in melee combat".


Yes, but that is again perfectly Canon. Because unless he is fighting in melee for more than 12 hours each day, it counts as a limitation.
Fortune
The only 'canon' Geasa are the ones listed in the books. All the rest are subject to GM discretion, with only suggested guidelines given.
toturi
Those are suggested Canon guidelines and other guidelines that the GM impose would make those geas non-Canon.
Fortune
Even given that the Geas is canon, it would not be a 'Time Geas'. It would be a 'Condition Geas', just as canon says that the 'Only When Uninjured' Geas is.
Club
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Jan 17 2005, 02:15 PM)
I'd consider making it 6 Points, so that taking it at chargen would mean it is the Adept's only magic ability.

And I'd bitch slap the player who inevitably suggests the 'only when injured' Geas.

Who will promptly bitch slap you back.

When injured qualifies as a time geas and the Canon guideline for a time geas is "50% of the time". Therefore unless he is injured for more than 50% of his life, it is allowable.

I would read that as '50% of the time when the power is active or useful'
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (toturi)
How did you calculate that each individual piece deals 384D? How do you know that there are 40 pieces? Are those Canon?

They are traveling at 3840 meters per turn, so I'd say that yes, it is canon.

~J
toturi
True, my mistake. It could be a "condition geas" but as it is also a "non-canon geas" following your defination, it is not necessarily a "condition geas". However, the guideline remains for the geas is that the condition should break the geas half the time.
toturi
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 17 2005, 03:00 PM)
QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 17 2005, 01:40 AM)
How did you calculate that each individual piece deals 384D? How do you know that there are 40 pieces? Are those Canon?

They are traveling at 3840 meters per turn, so I'd say that yes, it is canon.

~J

Nope, pieces of buildings are non-canon weapons. They are not listed in the CC or any other sourcebook that I know.
Fortune
Actually, canon states ...

QUOTE
(Mits. page 32) If the Geas is a condition that must (or must not) exist in order to do magic - the presence of or absence of sunlight, moonlight, a season, a physical state and so on - the condition must be consistent with the type of magic performed.


Since the magic could not be performed if the Adept were not injured anyway, 'Only when injured' would not qualify for Regeneration even under the canon guidelines.

*Emphasis mine.
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (Fortune)
Therefore it is a Cheese Geas™, as far as Powers like this are concerned.

Indeed. No matter what the player argued on this one, I wouldn't allow that one to fly in my game. ohplease.gif
toturi
Why is being injured inconsistant with performing Regeneration?

Using Canon examples: Why is singing consistant with casting a spell? How is fasting related to conjuring?

QUOTE
Such conditions should generally break the geas about half the time.


Is he injured 50% of the time? No, he is not. Therefore the geas is broken. In fact, the power works against the geas, because it keeps breaking the geas.
Fortune
It isn't. Being uninjured is.

Even taking your guidelines of Geasa having to have an effect on the character's magic 50% of the time, any time that the character spends uninjured should not count, as the Regeneration Power is unusable in any form when the character is uninjured. The only time Regeneration can be of use is when the character is actually injured. Any such Geas should be a limitation, not a repetition of a condition that must already exist for the magic to work.
Fortune
Most of the listed canon examples do not affect a character 50% of the time. The guidelines refer to Geasa not already listed as canon examples.

If a blind spellcaster must use Astral Perception to gain LOS, then he shouldn't be able to Geas his spellcasting with the condition Geas 'Only while Astrally Perceiving'. It's a common sense thing.
Crimson Jack
Besides all the rules wrangling, the spirit of why a player would want to take that geas smacks of munchkinism. Maybe that's okay in some games, but its just annoying when you try to visualize the reasoning of the choice of geas.
toturi
Do you lose the Regeneration ability when you are uninjured? It is in effect even when you are uninjured if you do not have the geas whether it is useful or not is moot. Only when you are injured do you gain the Regeneration ability, if you have the geas. You can use Regeneration if you do not have any injuries, just that it doesn't do anything useful.

You only have a gun(your power) when you are being shot at(condition); without the geas, you can have a gun but it is not doing anything useful.

Being in sunlight might allow you to cast spells, whether it is useful is another matter.

You are already paying 75% of the cost(for voluntary geas) for only a 50% usage. It is a simple matter of common sense.
Crimson Jack
*pitching the character*

GM: So I see that you've taken the uber-power, Regeneration... and what limitation on the power will you be taking as your geas?

Player: I only regen when I'm injured.

GM: Right, that's the power. What's the geas you'll be taking?

Player: No, that's it. The *geas* <wink wink> only works after I've been injured.

GM: That's funny. Seriously...

<blank stares>

GM: No.

<slap>
toturi
<slap back with the MitS> It follows all the Canon rules. The geas is broken when I'm uninjured. So I can't use Regenerate even if uninjured.
Fortune
QUOTE
You are already paying 75% of the cost(for voluntary geas) for only a 50% usage. It is a simple matter of common sense.


No, you are paying 75% of the cost for 100% usage, since there is nothing in the Geas that prevents or limits the Power's use in any way.
toturi
It limits the power to the time at which it is useful. It cannot be used when it is not useful. Even when I stretch the time at which it is useful, it is at most be useful 50% of the time.

Power on: Useful = 50%
Power off: Not useful = 50%
hyzmarca
QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 17 2005, 02:44 AM)
<slap back with the MitS> It follows all the Canon rules. The geas is broken when I'm uninjured. So I can't use Regenerate even if uninjured.

Actualy, that geas is makes regeneration more powerful since it would allow a character to use bioware and cyberware with a minimum risk of rejection.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (toturi)
It limits the power to the time at which it is useful. It cannot be used when it is not useful. Even when I stretch the time at which it is useful, it is at most be useful 50% of the time.

Power on: Useful = 50%
Power off: Not useful = 50%

The question that you must ask yourself is simple, is there ever a time when the power may fail the adept because of the geas. The power won't be active most of the time, but it will also never fail because of the Geas.
Fortune
The Power is only ever useful when you are injured. A Geas that limits it's use to 'only when injured' does not in any way limit the Power.

The opposite Geas, 'only when uninjured' would limit the Power 100% of the time, as the character could never regenerate.
toturi
You can't even implant. Since any attempt to implant would cause a wound. But it might be possible to implant before getting the power, then you might end up with the implant rejected the minute you get injured (speculation: since Regeneration is not a canon adept power anyway).
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (toturi)
<slap back with the MitS> It follows all the Canon rules. The geas is broken when I'm uninjured. So I can't use Regenerate even if uninjured.

QUOTE
BBB, pg. 63 - Creating a Shadowrunner -

Gamemaster's Approval
You didn't think we'd forget about the gamemaster, did you?  Gamemasters make the final decision as to whether a character should be allowed in the game. 


There is a point when even something canon is not allowed in a game and the ruling on it can be as "airy" as just being up the GM's whim. In this case, its a bit silly to try and convince someone that being injured is a limitation of the power, when the player would know good and well that being injured is the only time that they'd ever need the power.

Personal, side question... Toturi, are you a GM or a player generally? And if you're a GM mainly, do you rule from the School of Common Sense or the School of By the Book, No Matter What?
DocMortand
*gets out trench shovel and starts digging foxholes*

Oooh the crap is really gonna hit the fan now...
toturi
QUOTE (Fortune)
The Power is only ever useful when you are injured. A Geas that limits it's use to 'only when injured' does not in any way limit the Power.

The opposite Geas, 'only when uninjured' would limit the Power 100% of the time, as the character could never regenerate.

You can Regenerate when you are uninjured then. It just won't be doing anything.

I am not arguing that Regeneration is useful only when you are injured. I am saying that you can limit the time at which you have access the power to the time when you are injured. And that the time to which you have access to the power is less than 50% of the time.
toturi
QUOTE (Crimson Jack @ Jan 17 2005, 03:57 PM)
Personal, side question... Toturi, are you a GM or a player generally?  And if you're a GM mainly, do you rule from the School of Common Sense or the School of By the Book, No Matter What?

I GM. Look at my sig.

But yes, GM is God. But by the book Canon, without any GM intervention via the rule you quoted, I think the Geas is perfectly acceptable by the book.
Crimson Jack
toturi, I've read your sig before and I've gathered that you GM. The comments in this thread however, appear to be more those of player than a GM. No offense intended, it just seems that the common sense angle of this issue is getting lost.
toturi
I check my common sense at the door when I play SR3 whether as GM or player. No offense taken BTW. biggrin.gif
Crimson Jack
Alright, point taken. RPG's by the very nature are abstractions upon reality, however... it still seems logical that said geas isn't truly a limitation when it comes down to gameplay. Is it? C'mon. wink.gif
toturi
As a GM, I wouldn't allow such a geas. But as a neutral party, I'd allow it. BTW, as GM I wouldn't even have this problem as such a power is not canon.
Fortune
toturi, can you give me an example of just when the Geas would cause the Power to fail to work as described?
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (toturi)
As a GM, I wouldn't allow such a geas. But as a neutral party, I'd allow it. BTW, as GM I wouldn't even have this problem as such a power is not canon.

Heh. You get my vote for Devil's Advocate of the Year Award in that case. devil.gif
toturi
QUOTE (Fortune)
toturi, can you give me an example of just when the Geas would cause the Power to fail to work as described?

When you are uninjured, of course. It fails to work when it is not useful.
Fortune
It doesn't 'fail to work' when uninjured. That's like saying you fail to bleed when uninjured. The Power as described heals you when you are wounded. A Geas is supposed to limit that Power in some way.

So, can you give me a real example of when the Power would fail because of the Geas when the Power would otherwise normally work?
Dissonance
Well, I think that Regeneration doesn't work while you're uninjured, geas or no. Think of it along the lines of taking 'must be uninjured' as a geas for Quick Strike. You must be uninjured for Quick Strike to function. And as you must be wounded for regeneration to function, I think you'd have the same issue here.

Of course, if you wanted to be MEAN...

Let the guy create, and let him get enough karma to get the power.

And then let him get a tumor. Whoops, it's inoperable because he heals too fast for them to perform surgery and he dies a slow death in a hospital research lab.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 17 2005, 03:00 PM)
QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 17 2005, 01:40 AM)
How did you calculate that each individual piece deals 384D? How do you know that there are 40 pieces? Are those Canon?

They are traveling at 3840 meters per turn, so I'd say that yes, it is canon.

~J

Nope, pieces of buildings are non-canon weapons. They are not listed in the CC or any other sourcebook that I know.

Then change the building to a parking garage and the vehicles to Ford Americars. Kicks the damage down somewhat, but now no armor applies.

~J
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