Earthdawn To Shadowrun, Who's still here? Options

[Ancient History]

I keep getting the impression that the Atlantean FOundation is, to an extant, not fully up to speed on what went down in the last age.

The final remnant of the Therans in the 6th World is down in Azania, among the Heavenherds with their College and Governor. probably. loci are stuill an unknown factor.

[booklord]

[Cain]

According to Do6W, the Great Dragon status is more than just age or political respect; it appears to be a distinct part of their lifecycle. It apparently comes after they've passed the mating ages, although apparently they can still mate. There are apparently distinct changes that an adult dragon undergoes, in changing into a Great. I don't have my book right on hand, though, so I couldn't tell you more than that.

[sapphire_wyvern]

DotSW says that the transformation to Great Dragon is kinda like a metamorphosis, which is powered by the dragon's own magical abilities. This is why all Great Dragons, without exception, are powerful magic users - it's required to actually enter the metamorphosis.

Ryumyo, apparently, is trying for the next step up from Great, whatever that might be... :eek:

[Synner]

He's not the only one either.

[Reth]

Well i was only half serious about the Atlanteans Ancient, but there are some similarities between them and the group led by Messias, that set out to study powerfull relics of a past age ( Books of Harrowing ). But yes the Azanians is a good bet, especially given their relationship with Mujaji.

[Ancient History]

No offense Reth, but it's pretty much damn canon if you accept the little transcripted conversation in the back of the Cybertechnology book.

[Reth]

Alas there are many of the old books that i don't have, want them, can't find them even though i do find some once in a while. Which of the things are you refering to, the Atlanteans or the Azanians, and mind you i agree with your view on the Azanians, i'm just not sure the Atlanteans are completely clueless given their appaerance in Threats.

[Ancient History]

Let's Seperate FOr a Moment:

1)The Atlantean FOundation-at once exceedingly informed yet digging in the weirdest damn places. Most likely not the descendents of Thera/Atlantis

2)Ale'i Menatis-and other culty Atlantis-reborn groups. Probably not related in any way to Thera/Atlantis.

3)The Heavenherds-in Azania, who are pretty much the only official Therans remaining.

Now, given that, can ye specify what you mean by "Atlanteans"?

[Reth]

Atlantean Foundation and its mysterious leader Sheila Blatavska.

But you've pretty much answered already, it was the Azanians, and as i said i agree that they are the only ones who can be directly linked to Thera, i was just speculating out loud about AF.

While we are at it, i recall somebody someplace, don't remember where comparing TT to Thera, what do you think of that?

Personally i would compare TT more to Shosara, but i could be wrong.

[Ancient History]

I think Tir Tairngire is the result of Icewing and Mountainshadow relocating to the North American continent; it's apparent that a certain powerful faction wants to stay seperate from the Elven Court (perhaps remembering Alachia's influence), but individuals keep contact with parts of Tir na nOg (and not necessairally for espionage).

Tir na nOg holds ALachia and the Elven Court, plus what appear to be a number of Elven ruins and possibly a Locus. I think it might be the "Western Kingdoms" that Alachia originally came from as opposed to Shosara inheriting the Court. Whatever it's derivation, Tir na nOg has definately set itself against the Dragons and Tir Tairngire.

I expound further on this in my Alamaise Conspiracy, but I really need to uipdate it to take Dragons of the SIxth World intoa ccount first.

[Reth]

Yes that move of focus from eastern Europe to nothwestern America is somewhat baffling, but it could be as simple as that FASA just wanted some dragons and elves in America from the start, then comes Earthdawn which is situated in eastern Europe, what happens in between? We may never know, but maybe Dunkie and GW just spread out so to speak, i mean we know from the ED dragons sourcebook that GD's take the future very serious, maybe they thought that spreading out insured a greater chance of more of them making it through the downcycle. As far as the elves go, then you're problaly right in assuming, they wanted to put some distance between them and Alachia, didn't really work though.

[Ancient History]

Well, it may have something to do with Icewing (read: GW) being in charge of IE/Dragon interaction (bows to Subrosa); and it certainly explains the Celtic-Salish style of Tir Tairngire architecture.

[Reth]

How would Icewings former status have anything to do with the move to North America? This Liason status of his is that not al the way back in the second world?

BTW Ancient do you know which of the great dragons hail from back in the 2nd world?

[Ancient History]

Dragons think long term. If anything went down in Blood Wood (like, say, it imploded) Icewing may just have taken it upon himself to relocate the troublemakers somewhere else. Maybe. Hard to say.

I think it all comes down to Denver.

[Reth]

And why would the elves have obeyed him and moved? They are exactly big on obeying the dragons and there are no reasons they should.

Btw i saw in one of the old post that you mentioned that you were increasingly distrustful og GW, for what reason?

[Ancient History]

There was a big confrontation at some point in the 4th world, with most of the IE's on one side and all the Great Dragons on the other. I assume that the elves were given a choice: go with chaperones or go in an urn.

I did? I'd have to look back at the context of what I said. Give me a pointer?

[Reth]

Do you have the scan on that confrontation, what it was about and so on?

The reference to GW is in the Alamaise conspiracy theory 2.0. posted 16/2-03.

you might be right the reason for the relocation to America, i just have a problem with the idea of GD's ORDERING IE's around, clearly some of the IE's would be able to take on a GD in their own right, you just don't order such people around, that has a tendency of being hazardous to your health.

[Ancient History]

An individual IE could conceivably be a match for a Great Dragon. Certainly Alamaise' daughter managed to wound him deeply. But in sheer firepower (pun intended) I think there are far more Great Dragons than IE's...and Aina was on the side of the Great Dragons.

Ah, I see. I thought Icewing, in his role as liason 'tween IEs and GD, might have led the elves that would become the Heavenherds to the Books of Harrow, or might in fact be responsible for the creation of IE's in the first place.

[booklord]

The IE's of Tir Tairngire probably just put themselve's in a position to benefit from local political events. Both Azania and Tir Na Nog had ?naturally? high levels of elves to draw from to create their little nations. But the the founders of Tir Tairngire didn't have that. They had to set up a situation where a large number of metahumans (particularly elves) would congregate in a single area. ( which they did by tricking the the S-S-C into putting out a all metahumans welcome sign )

Would the founders of Tir Tairngire have preferred someplace in Europe? Possibly. But there wasn't any real oppotunities there. Besides the elves seem to like the Redwood forest and Crater lake.

As for Alachia, it seems to me from the Caroline Specter book and the Shadows of North America that both she and her daughter are princes of Tir Tairngire. Also it appears she holds a position of some influence in Tir Na Nog. (Though I don't think she's in charge. Possibly they don't trust her that much anymore.) I haven't a clue if she's in charge of the Atlantean Foundation. I kind of doubt it. The Crusaders seem to multi-racial to be pawns of a woman who in all likelyhood is a racist as her daughter.

In a final comment about why IEs seem to bow to the wishes of dragons. I'd say it has more to do with the dragons having an early advantage at the beginning of the sixth age while magic is still on the weaker side. When push comes to shove dragons seem to be able to throw their weight around. Lofwyr's defeat of Leonardo.....Sirrurg's destruction of that Euro flight ( no magician born in the sixth age should even have been able to slow that dragon down ).....Hetsaby's defeat of Tir Tairngire's army. In time the IEs may amass enough power to face down the dragons. But for right now? Best to bide their time, and let the overgrown lizards have their way.

[Ancient History]

Of course, the question remains as to why GW and Dunkie would go over to America; and why there's a higher elf population in North America...and of course, there IS Crater Lake.

[Reth]

Why do you think there are more GD's than IE's, because we know more names? In Threats (p.58 ) it says " less than 25 immortal elves are known to exist....", that can ofcourse be anywhere between 1 and 24 then, but this is ofcourse only those who are known. We have the named ones in TT, Urdli in Australia, but there must be some in TNN and Azania. All in all i assume there are at least as many as there are GD's if not more, but as you said earlier in this post SR is very Dracocentric, and the game developers seem to have developed a: NOT so subtle BIAS against elves.

[booklord]

Remember there's more than 2000 years of unrecorded history in the fourth age after the events listed in "Barsaive at War". At any point during this, A great dragon or immortal elf could have said "To heck with this place, I'm moving".

For that matter Barsaive was supposedly located somewhere around the Ukraine right? I find it curious that NO great dragons or IE's seem to call that area home. Closest greats are in Germany, England, and the Middle East. Even the Elven court seems to have moved off to an island.

Perhaps something really nasty happened involving say the outcast great dragon Denairastas and his clan of "immortal" humans that really lowered property values in and around Barsaive in a hurry.

[Nath]

[Talia Invierno]

There had been something of a debate some time back over the Alachia/Sosan/Jenna question, which was never resolved to my satisfaction. Basically Sosan has the exact physical description of Alachia, but none of the personality; while Jenna has a very similar physical description, the personality, and the picture, but was known to be a distinct (and different) person in times past ... Alachia's daughter, if I mistake not.

In existing folklore, there is a wide body of literature suggesting that witch-mothers are capable of taking over the bodies of their blood-daughters or swapping them with their own.