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booklord
Thought I'd just stir up this conversation once again.....

Starting with dragons.........

sure things.....

Mountainshadow -> Dunklezahn
IceWing -> Ghostwalker
Alamaise -> Alamais
Alamaise's brother ->Lofwyr
Usun -> Sirrurg

theories......

Charcoalgrin -> Hestaby
Nightsky -> Celedwyr ( having grown more silver )
(Egg Nightsky gave to Earthroot [ Who was an Eastern dragon]) -> Masaru

What do you think?
Also does anybody feel up to doing immortal elves?
Ancient History
At the very least:

Caimbeul Har'lea'Quinn->Harlequin
Ehran->Ehran
Aithne Oakforest->Aithne Oakforest
Aina->Aina Dupree
Queen Alachia->Alachia (Sosan Nearain?)

Other Elven Queen->Jenna Ni'Fairra(?)
Leonardus->Leonardo(?)

The Others havenae been mentioned by name, and there's still some confusion to the matter and exact identities.
Lilt
Mentioned in the unpublished earthdawn dragons book; I'm guessing Luung is now Lung (wild projection on my part).

Also was in not strongly suggested in Dot6W that the eggs of the sea dragon were given to Hestaby?

[edit]OK. I'm assuming on that last part that the egg given was one of the sea-dragon's clutch...[/edit]
Connor
In Dot6W, Masaru is clearly labeled as the youngest of the Great's, so I doubt he was one of the greats from back in the Earthdawn days. That or he attained Geat status just before napping.
booklord
QUOTE
In Dot6W, Masaru is clearly labeled as the youngest of the Great's, so I doubt he was one of the greats from back in the Earthdawn days. That or he attained Geat status just before napping.


Actually if the scourge happened in the middle of the fourth age and the fourth age was roughly 5000 years long..... Then that would give roughly 2250 years between the giving of the egg to end of the fourth age. ( adding Earthdawn time ) a few years as an egg, 200 years as a hatchling, 2000 years as an adult. And it is known he became a great shortly after the sixth age began. The timing is actually just about perfect. This is also the perfect explanation why Masaru would be so thrilled to have Celedwyr ( a western dragon trained by Earthroot ) to raise his egg.
Connor
booklord, spelling it out like that it's pretty hard to argue with you about it. I think I'll have to agree with that theory on Masaru now.
Ancient History
I wonder if now we be a good time to re-introduce the Alamaise COnspiracy?
Connor
It will have to be introduced on the new boards at some point, right? Might as well take advantage of the opportunity now.
Talondel
QUOTE (Ancient History)
At the very least:

Caimbeul Har'lea'Quinn->Harlequin
Ehran->Ehran
Aithne Oakforest->Aithne Oakforest
Aina->Aina Dupree
Queen Alachia->Alachia

Whatever, man. What a crock of shit. That's nothing but wild speculation on your part, with any of those five. It's pure coincidence. You're talking out of your ass. You don't have any proof at all. Immortal Elves probably don't even exist, and those five sure as hell aren't some of 'em. Man, it's sad that you spread such weak theories off as "fact" to the readers of these boards. The pronunciations of "Ehran" and "Ehran" are completely different, you just can't hear it with your weak human ears. There's no way those five should be listed here. You're wrong. Slanderous lies, it's all slanderous lies.

*goes and collects a $20 from the Tir*
The_Sarge
Cheapskate Tir sarariman! biggrin.gif
Userlimit
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 16 2003, 03:59 PM)
Queen Alachia->Alachia (Sosan Nearain?)

Other Elven Queen->Jenna Ni'Fairra(?)


Doesn't it imply in the Tir Tairngire SB that Jenna Ni'Fairra is Queen Alachia? During the politics section an anonymous shadowland poster says that on a visit to Ni'Fairra's home he sees a picture that closely resembles Ni'Fairra except with thorns protruding from her body. The next post is from our friend the Laughing Man, saying that it was the Blood Queen. Based off that I'd say we can close the case on that one too unless there is something I am completely missing.
Solkari
IIRC, Jenna Ni'Fairra is Alachia's daughter, so of course there would be some resemblance. Alachia's pretty high up in the government of Tir na Nog, probably trying to take the throne. Ni'Fairra is a Prince in Tir Tairngire. Looking back thought SoNA, it seems possible that Sosan is Alachia, but I didn't think Alachia cared too much about Tairngire.

[edit] Oh yeah, forgot one thing, I'm pretty sure that Alachia is the Blood Queen, which is why she cares more about Na Nog than Tairngire.
Userlimit
I need to learn not to contest ancient history, heh. grinbig.gif
Ancient History
Alachia and Jenna look very much alike, except for coloring (according to the Caroline Spector novel). Alachia we know was a Queen (and Blood Queen) of Wyrm Wood/Blood Wood at least once. It is not impossible that Jenna could have been a Queen or might be a Blood Queen.
Dog
Hey, can anyone point me to a site where I can glean more background on ED? I have no intention of playing the game, but I'd like to use the references to the fourth world.
Talondel
Y'know, there's nothing [I]wrong[I] with Earthdawn itself. Rules-wise and system-wise, I actually like it better than Shadowrun for ease of play, and better than D&D for a fantasy game.

It's good stuff, and good for a lot more than just the setting tie-ins.
Ancient History
Dog, look for something with the Dragon.pdf That should dae ye for starters.
SCLariat
Alachia has nothing to do with Tir Na Nog, but everything to do with Tir Tairngire. Tir Na Nog is the ancient elf kingdom of Shoshara who rejected Alachia's decision to construct a wooden kaer before the Scourge the proceeded the Fourth World. For those without a Earthdawn background, magic is cyclical. When the magic rises to the right amount, creatures called "The Horrors" swarm through and reak havoc. (If you read the "Heart of Heroes" series of SR novels, that's what the hubbub was all about.) In times past, metahumanity has sought the protection of magical fortresses called kaers in order to survive. The kaers themselves are not fullproof, but they represent the best opportunity to survive.

The Therans (the Atlanteans) figured out a way to make cares involved a specific set of enchantments that was adopted by most of the known world except for the High Queen of the Elves, Alachia. Alachia, in an act of paramount folly, rejected the Theran formulas and elected to construct a kaer consisting of the wood of the Wyrm Wood, a magically enhanced forrest first created by Alamais, the great dragon. Alachia also commanded all other elves to reject the Theran kaers and follow her example. All of the other elven kingdoms, led by Shoshara (Harlequin's home), rejected Alachia's plan, thereby destroying Alachia's power as High Queen. Midway during the Scourge, the wooden kaer began to fail. In order to save themselves, Alachia and her followers cast a ritual spell which warps the Wyrm Wood into the Blood Wood and every elf received flesh thorns, similiar to the thorns on roses. Many of the Blood Wood elves died during the rituals, and the survivors suffer constant and intense agony. The Horrors, unable to inflict any more suffering and agony then elves have inflicted upon themselves, leave the survivors alone. That is why Aithne Oakforest reacts the way he does to the sight of rose bushes. The elves behind TT are the survivors of the Blood Wood; the elves of TNN are the elves who rejected Alachia's plan.

As you can see, this is just one part of the overall story of Earthdawn. While the games system can be a bit clumsy, Living Room Games has done a good job of speeding things up. The ED/SR cross over is a good way to do "epic" shadowrun. I've run one campaign in the past with a heavy ED/SR cross over, and I've just started another. To me, its the ED/SR crossover which makes SR different from the other games in the same genre (Cyberpunk, etc.).

I find Earthdawn to be a lot of fun, moreso than D&D. In D&D, its all about stuff and feats. For the most part, the fighter types tend to me superflous after the wizards and clerics reach 11th level or so. However, Earthdawn does not suffer from these problems. For example, my Earthdawn character (that I've been playing almost weekly for the better part of four years) is still using the same weapon in which he started the game with.

You can find some of used Earthdawn books on places like eBay.com . I've also found them in the stack of stuff gaming stores are usually happy to get rid off at their stores/cons. They're usually pretty cheap to buy, but I find them to be a huge help.
Sepherim
QUOTE
Actually if the scourge happened in the middle of the fourth age and the fourth age was roughly 5000 years long.....    Then that would give roughly 2250 years between the giving of the egg to end of the fourth age.  ( adding Earthdawn time ) a few years as an egg, 200 years as a hatchling, 2000 years as an adult.  And it is known he became a great shortly after the sixth age began.    The timing is actually just about perfect.    This is also the perfect explanation why Masaru would be so thrilled to have Celedwyr ( a western dragon trained by Earthroot ) to raise his egg.


I'm not too sure that they count they "sleeping" years as to state if one dragon is a Great or not. Remember that Great Dragon is a status among their race, not just a matter of age. Besides, with 5.000 years sleeping, there'd be a lot of Great Dragons in SR, and there aren't. This would mean that some dragons would have to be born during the 5th World, which is not probable, or there were really just a few of them and they had tons of children quickly (and they surely grow fast!), which would contradict the Dragons.pdf. No? Or is there somthing that appears in Dragons, which I don't own, and that I'm missing?
Reth
Concerning TT and TNN, i'm not sure it is so cut and dried as to say, that the elves that formed TT are the survivors of Blood Wood, while the elves that formed TNN are the elves that rejected Alachias plan. Clearly Alachia, Jenna Ni'Fairra and Aithne Oakforest can be placed in Blood Wood, but Ehran, Laverty and Surehand cannot, actually as far as i understand it Ehran is from Sereatha like Harley. As far as we have been told in sourcebooks and novels TT was the brainchild of the four male IE's with Ehran actually doing most of the work, thus only one of the "founders" of TT has a clear relation to Blood Wood. How Alachia and Jenna managed to worm onto the council of princes is something we have not been told. As regards TNN then culturally speaking TNN is Blood Wood, with the paths, the seelie court and the elven queen or rather TNN is Wyrm Wood before it became Blood Wood. Now it is clearly indicated in several sources that many elves were disgusted with what Alachia made Wyrm Wood into, therefore it would make sense to assume that TNN is the recreation of Wyrm Wood, as it was supposed to have been. This however indicates that TNN was formed by at least some suvivors of Blood Wood and this time they made sure that Alachia did not get the throne, even though she has managed to worm herself into Lady Brane Deighs favor. It seems like that Alachia in collusion with her darling daughter is working both sides of the pond, maybe in a long sighted bid to reestablish the authority of the elven queen in all elven lands and then swoop in and take the throne again. All in all IMO the relationship between TT and Blood Wood is quite insubstantial and only survivors of Blood Wood have found a place there simply because they are not wanted in TNN ( Oakforest is problaly tarnished since he was the queens man or else he just did'nt want any part of a new Wyrm Wood, he certainly does'nt seem to take kindly to being reminded of the things he has lost ). Galadriel with an evil twist BRRrr.
Ancient History
Yeah, time to dig out the Alamaise Conspiracy. If only to givee a different interpretation to SCLariat. Unfortunately, I've yet to take Dragons of the Sixth World intoa ccount...
Dr Komuso
If I remember my Earthdawn history right (And maybe I don't spin.gif ), wasn't it the dwarves who built/designed the kaers? Even if so, I'm fairly sure there's no mention of this in any Shadowrun product whatsoever, so maybe there's no relation.

Actually, is there any mention at ALL of what other races were doing during those times in any SR products? Honestly, SR's elfocentric histories always bugged me, and though the current developers seem to be moving away from this somewhat it's still jams in ones craw. While the idea of certain power hungry elves mixing myth and history to create an illusion of age to their culture is an interesting one, I'd really like to see some indication of other races rising to take back some of their ancient heritage.

Or maybe I'm just crazy. silly.gif
Ancient History
More like dracocentric history, but the thing is that you can't reclaim a heritage you don't know exists.

That said, there's the Troll Kingdom of the Black Forest, a couple of dwarven settlements, the Ork Underground in Seattle, the ancient Ork language may start gaining popularity since Dunkie gave out a sample in his Will, and I'm sure there's more.

The Kaers were of Theran design.
phelious fogg
So who are the Therans in ralation to shadowrun?
I wonder if Obsidimen are ever going to awaken from there rocks?
Anyways food for thought
Reth
Perhaps it will eventually be the Atlantean Foundation that will establish the new Thera, perhaps Sheila Blatavska is actually one of the original "usurpers"
Ancient History
I keep getting the impression that the Atlantean FOundation is, to an extant, not fully up to speed on what went down in the last age.

The final remnant of the Therans in the 6th World is down in Azania, among the Heavenherds with their College and Governor. probably. loci are stuill an unknown factor.
booklord
QUOTE
QUOTE
Actually if the scourge happened in the middle of the fourth age and the fourth age was roughly 5000 years long.....    Then that would give roughly 2250 years between the giving of the egg to end of the fourth age.  ( adding Earthdawn time ) a few years as an egg, 200 years as a hatchling, 2000 years as an adult.  And it is known he became a great shortly after the sixth age began.    The timing is actually just about perfect.    This is also the perfect explanation why Masaru would be so thrilled to have Celedwyr ( a western dragon trained by Earthroot ) to raise his egg.


I'm not too sure that they count they "sleeping" years as to state if one dragon is a Great or not. Remember that Great Dragon is a status among their race, not just a matter of age. Besides, with 5.000 years sleeping, there'd be a lot of Great Dragons in SR, and there aren't. This would mean that some dragons would have to be born during the 5th World, which is not probable, or there were really just a few of them and they had tons of children quickly (and they surely grow fast!), which would contradict the Dragons.pdf. No? Or is there somthing that appears in Dragons, which I don't own, and that I'm missing?


Read closer. If the Masaru theory is correct then Masaru was given to Earthroot as an egg somewhere shortly past the middle of the fourth age. He hatched and was a youngling dragon for about 200 years. Then he spent almost 2000 years as an adult BEFORE the end of the fourth age. Then he went to sleep where he didn't age at all during the fifth age. When the sixth age began he woke up in 2014. He only had 29 years left before becoming a great dragon around 2043.

Cain
According to Do6W, the Great Dragon status is more than just age or political respect; it appears to be a distinct part of their lifecycle. It apparently comes after they've passed the mating ages, although apparently they can still mate. There are apparently distinct changes that an adult dragon undergoes, in changing into a Great. I don't have my book right on hand, though, so I couldn't tell you more than that.
sapphire_wyvern
DotSW says that the transformation to Great Dragon is kinda like a metamorphosis, which is powered by the dragon's own magical abilities. This is why all Great Dragons, without exception, are powerful magic users - it's required to actually enter the metamorphosis.

Ryumyo, apparently, is trying for the next step up from Great, whatever that might be... eek.gif
Synner
He's not the only one either.
Reth
Well i was only half serious about the Atlanteans Ancient, but there are some similarities between them and the group led by Messias, that set out to study powerfull relics of a past age ( Books of Harrowing ). But yes the Azanians is a good bet, especially given their relationship with Mujaji.
Ancient History
No offense Reth, but it's pretty much damn canon if you accept the little transcripted conversation in the back of the Cybertechnology book.
Reth
Alas there are many of the old books that i don't have, want them, can't find them even though i do find some once in a while. Which of the things are you refering to, the Atlanteans or the Azanians, and mind you i agree with your view on the Azanians, i'm just not sure the Atlanteans are completely clueless given their appaerance in Threats.
Ancient History
Let's Seperate FOr a Moment:

1)The Atlantean FOundation-at once exceedingly informed yet digging in the weirdest damn places. Most likely not the descendents of Thera/Atlantis

2)Ale'i Menatis-and other culty Atlantis-reborn groups. Probably not related in any way to Thera/Atlantis.

3)The Heavenherds-in Azania, who are pretty much the only official Therans remaining.

Now, given that, can ye specify what you mean by "Atlanteans"?
Reth
Atlantean Foundation and its mysterious leader Sheila Blatavska.

But you've pretty much answered already, it was the Azanians, and as i said i agree that they are the only ones who can be directly linked to Thera, i was just speculating out loud about AF.

While we are at it, i recall somebody someplace, don't remember where comparing TT to Thera, what do you think of that?

Personally i would compare TT more to Shosara, but i could be wrong.
Ancient History
I think Tir Tairngire is the result of Icewing and Mountainshadow relocating to the North American continent; it's apparent that a certain powerful faction wants to stay seperate from the Elven Court (perhaps remembering Alachia's influence), but individuals keep contact with parts of Tir na nOg (and not necessairally for espionage).

Tir na nOg holds ALachia and the Elven Court, plus what appear to be a number of Elven ruins and possibly a Locus. I think it might be the "Western Kingdoms" that Alachia originally came from as opposed to Shosara inheriting the Court. Whatever it's derivation, Tir na nOg has definately set itself against the Dragons and Tir Tairngire.

I expound further on this in my Alamaise Conspiracy, but I really need to uipdate it to take Dragons of the SIxth World intoa ccount first.
Reth
Yes that move of focus from eastern Europe to nothwestern America is somewhat baffling, but it could be as simple as that FASA just wanted some dragons and elves in America from the start, then comes Earthdawn which is situated in eastern Europe, what happens in between? We may never know, but maybe Dunkie and GW just spread out so to speak, i mean we know from the ED dragons sourcebook that GD's take the future very serious, maybe they thought that spreading out insured a greater chance of more of them making it through the downcycle. As far as the elves go, then you're problaly right in assuming, they wanted to put some distance between them and Alachia, didn't really work though.
Ancient History
Well, it may have something to do with Icewing (read: GW) being in charge of IE/Dragon interaction (bows to Subrosa); and it certainly explains the Celtic-Salish style of Tir Tairngire architecture.
Reth
How would Icewings former status have anything to do with the move to North America? This Liason status of his is that not al the way back in the second world?

BTW Ancient do you know which of the great dragons hail from back in the 2nd world?
Ancient History
Dragons think long term. If anything went down in Blood Wood (like, say, it imploded) Icewing may just have taken it upon himself to relocate the troublemakers somewhere else. Maybe. Hard to say.

I think it all comes down to Denver.
Reth
And why would the elves have obeyed him and moved? They are exactly big on obeying the dragons and there are no reasons they should.

Btw i saw in one of the old post that you mentioned that you were increasingly distrustful og GW, for what reason?
Ancient History
There was a big confrontation at some point in the 4th world, with most of the IE's on one side and all the Great Dragons on the other. I assume that the elves were given a choice: go with chaperones or go in an urn.

I did? I'd have to look back at the context of what I said. Give me a pointer?
Reth
Do you have the scan on that confrontation, what it was about and so on?

The reference to GW is in the Alamaise conspiracy theory 2.0. posted 16/2-03.

you might be right the reason for the relocation to America, i just have a problem with the idea of GD's ORDERING IE's around, clearly some of the IE's would be able to take on a GD in their own right, you just don't order such people around, that has a tendency of being hazardous to your health.
Ancient History
An individual IE could conceivably be a match for a Great Dragon. Certainly Alamaise' daughter managed to wound him deeply. But in sheer firepower (pun intended) I think there are far more Great Dragons than IE's...and Aina was on the side of the Great Dragons.

Ah, I see. I thought Icewing, in his role as liason 'tween IEs and GD, might have led the elves that would become the Heavenherds to the Books of Harrow, or might in fact be responsible for the creation of IE's in the first place.
booklord
The IE's of Tir Tairngire probably just put themselve's in a position to benefit from local political events. Both Azania and Tir Na Nog had ?naturally? high levels of elves to draw from to create their little nations. But the the founders of Tir Tairngire didn't have that. They had to set up a situation where a large number of metahumans (particularly elves) would congregate in a single area. ( which they did by tricking the the S-S-C into putting out a all metahumans welcome sign )

Would the founders of Tir Tairngire have preferred someplace in Europe? Possibly. But there wasn't any real oppotunities there. Besides the elves seem to like the Redwood forest and Crater lake.

As for Alachia, it seems to me from the Caroline Specter book and the Shadows of North America that both she and her daughter are princes of Tir Tairngire. Also it appears she holds a position of some influence in Tir Na Nog. (Though I don't think she's in charge. Possibly they don't trust her that much anymore.) I haven't a clue if she's in charge of the Atlantean Foundation. I kind of doubt it. The Crusaders seem to multi-racial to be pawns of a woman who in all likelyhood is a racist as her daughter.

In a final comment about why IEs seem to bow to the wishes of dragons. I'd say it has more to do with the dragons having an early advantage at the beginning of the sixth age while magic is still on the weaker side. When push comes to shove dragons seem to be able to throw their weight around. Lofwyr's defeat of Leonardo.....Sirrurg's destruction of that Euro flight ( no magician born in the sixth age should even have been able to slow that dragon down ).....Hetsaby's defeat of Tir Tairngire's army. In time the IEs may amass enough power to face down the dragons. But for right now? Best to bide their time, and let the overgrown lizards have their way.
Ancient History
Of course, the question remains as to why GW and Dunkie would go over to America; and why there's a higher elf population in North America...and of course, there IS Crater Lake.
Reth
Why do you think there are more GD's than IE's, because we know more names? In Threats (p.58 ) it says " less than 25 immortal elves are known to exist....", that can ofcourse be anywhere between 1 and 24 then, but this is ofcourse only those who are known. We have the named ones in TT, Urdli in Australia, but there must be some in TNN and Azania. All in all i assume there are at least as many as there are GD's if not more, but as you said earlier in this post SR is very Dracocentric, and the game developers seem to have developed a: NOT so subtle BIAS against elves.
booklord
Remember there's more than 2000 years of unrecorded history in the fourth age after the events listed in "Barsaive at War". At any point during this, A great dragon or immortal elf could have said "To heck with this place, I'm moving".

For that matter Barsaive was supposedly located somewhere around the Ukraine right? I find it curious that NO great dragons or IE's seem to call that area home. Closest greats are in Germany, England, and the Middle East. Even the Elven court seems to have moved off to an island.

Perhaps something really nasty happened involving say the outcast great dragon Denairastas and his clan of "immortal" humans that really lowered property values in and around Barsaive in a hurry.
Nath
QUOTE (booklord)
Perhaps something really nasty happened involving say the outcast great dragon Denairastas and his clan of "immortal" humans that really lowered property values in and around Barsaive in a hurry.

Josef Staline ? biggrin.gif
Talia Invierno
There had been something of a debate some time back over the Alachia/Sosan/Jenna question, which was never resolved to my satisfaction. Basically Sosan has the exact physical description of Alachia, but none of the personality; while Jenna has a very similar physical description, the personality, and the picture, but was known to be a distinct (and different) person in times past ... Alachia's daughter, if I mistake not.

In existing folklore, there is a wide body of literature suggesting that witch-mothers are capable of taking over the bodies of their blood-daughters or swapping them with their own.
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